Works for Salvation: Humility

[Josef]

Another way to think of it is this:
You can’t have Christ apart from His church!

Christ and His church are one! acts 9:4 Acts 5:32 Jn 15:1-5 1 cor 13:12

Thanks

Hey All,
God's church doesn't come into me, and sup with me. Jesus does. Rev 3:20. The church of Layodicia was a church in name only. What did Jesus require of them to be saved?

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.


One thing. A heart that has been opened by the grace of God (ears that hear), through faith in Jesus.
How do we know this?
Jesus was on the outside.
Jesus, by his own words, will come in as soon as the door opens (the sinner receives Him). There is no lag time. Jesus never says open the door and get baptized, and then I will come in.

I believe what Jesus did say. All Scripture must align itself to the Word of God. Here we have the actual Word of God telling us when salvation occurs. All the scriptures you quoted must align with the requirement Jesus had or they make Jesus a liar.
I know that's harsh. But it is the truth. I have taken you (donadams) through a very long list of verses, showing you that each one does not require baptism for salvation.

Now I am going to take a different approach. If baptism is necessary, why did Jesus leave it out as a requirement? How do you justify that?

There are only one possibility.
Jesus does not lie.
Jesus does not forget.
Jesus never mentions baptism.
Therefore baptism is not a requirement for salvation.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[Josef]

The Christian sacrament* of baptismal regeneration is required for the new covenant and salvation!

*this promise acts 2:38-39 is a sacred oath from God ez 36:25-27 and a sacred oath is a sacrament!

Initiation!!!


Faith & Baptism is the initiation of the new and eternal covenant!

You cannot enter on you’re own or by “faith alone”!

You cannot receive Christ or grace by “faith alone”!

“Accept Christ as you’re personal lord and savior” is fundamentalist tradition not found scripture!

Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Baptismal regeneration a new creation in Christ! 2 Cor 5:17

A sacrament is an oath! A sacred promise from God! Ez 36:25-27
Acts 2:38-39 (this promise)

No baptism no grace!
No union with God and His saints thru Christ the mediator!

A sacrament is an outward sign for all men including infants And a gift from God to help us see what he does inwardly and invisibly by his grace!

As grace Washes our souls in the merits of Jesus blood from original and personal sin, so the outward action of washing is visible!

without the outward action the inward action cannot take place!

Jn 3:5 Titus 3:5 water and washing
acts 22:16 wash away your sin!

Jn 3:5 Born again BY water and the spirit! Not by “faith alone”!

They did not go to Jerusalem and preach “accept Christ as you’re personal Lord and savior “

They went to the river (water) and they baptized! Jn 3:22

A covenant requires an outward sign of the inward action of grace!

Ez 36:25 I will sprinkle you with clean water and you shall be made white as snow.

Acts 22:16 washing away your sins.

Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 pet 3:21 baptism saves you.

You cannot enter on you’re own or by faith alone! Jn 3:5

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,


Baptism!

God breathed life into Adam, gen 2:7 and we received this life from our fathers!

Christ breathed on the apostles our spiritual fathers, we receive the new covenant life of God’s grace from them thru faith & baptism! Jn 20:21-23 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38 eph 2

Born again! Born from above!

'The Father has set his seal' on Christ (John 6:27) and also seals us in him (cf. 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:23, 4:30). Because this seal indicates the indelible effect of the anointing with the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Baptism,

Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life." 87 The faithful Christian who I has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith," 88 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.

St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13

Sealed by God eph 1:13 sealed by God (ez 36:25-27) in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)

Sealed in the ark, sealed in the church the ark of salvation by God thru baptism!


Christ instituted the holy church to teach and sanctify all men unto eternal salvation. (repent and believe the gospel) with the institution of the sacraments to convey grace to sanctify souls!
Matt 28:19

Hey All,
I am not going through your lists again. I picked out your Ezekiel example to show that error in context leads to error in application.

"A sacrament is an oath! A sacred promise from God! Ez 36:25-27
Acts 2:38-39 (this promise)" Quote from donadams

I am not going to post all of the verses here. You can re-read it. The Ezekiel passage is about God restoring the nation Israel. It is all God's doing for God's purposes.

Here is how I answered the passage cited in a previous post. Nothing has changed.

Acts 2:38-39 repentance & baptism
If you believe baptism to be the second work after salvation, I agree. (I know somewhere on your list is going to be speaking, or confession as a work. I have seen lists like this before.) But again we see being born again, of which repentance is a part, comes first. If baptism is required, John 3:16 is not completely able, by itself, to save someone.

Acts is dealing with an individual.
So Ezekiel 36:25-27, and Acts 2:38-39 is not an apples to apples comparison.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[GodsGrace]

Hey All,
God's church doesn't come into me, and sup with me. Jesus does. Rev 3:20. The church of Layodicia was a church in name only. What did Jesus require of them to be saved?

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.


One thing. A heart that has been opened by the grace of God (ears that hear), through faith in Jesus.
How do we know this?
Jesus was on the outside.
Jesus, by his own words, will come in as soon as the door opens (the sinner receives Him). There is no lag time. Jesus never says open the door and get baptized, and then I will come in.

I believe what Jesus did say. All Scripture must align itself to the Word of God. Here we have the actual Word of God telling us when salvation occurs. All the scriptures you quoted must align with the requirement Jesus had or they make Jesus a liar.
I know that's harsh. But it is the truth. I have taken you (donadams) through a very long list of verses, showing you that each one does not require baptism for salvation.

Now I am going to take a different approach. If baptism is necessary, why did Jesus leave it out as a requirement? How do you justify that?

There are only one possibility.
Jesus does not lie.
Jesus does not forget.
Jesus never mentions baptism.
Therefore baptism is not a requirement for salvation.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

What about Matthew 28:19?

Is that a suggestion or a requirement?

 

[Corinth77777]

Hey All,
I am not going through your lists again. I picked out your Ezekiel example to show that error in context leads to error in application.

"A sacrament is an oath! A sacred promise from God! Ez 36:25-27
Acts 2:38-39 (this promise)" Quote from donadams

I am not going to post all of the verses here. You can re-read it. The Ezekiel passage is about God restoring the nation Israel. It is all God's doing for God's purposes.

Here is how I answered the passage cited in a previous post. Nothing has changed.

Acts 2:38-39 repentance & baptism
If you believe baptism to be the second work after salvation, I agree. (I know somewhere on your list is going to be speaking, or confession as a work. I have seen lists like this before.) But again we see being born again, of which repentance is a part, comes first. If baptism is required, John 3:16 is not completely able, by itself, to save someone.

Acts is dealing with an individual.
So Ezekiel 36:25-27, and Acts 2:38-39 is not an apples to apples comparison.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

I guess I am hopeful lol, but this person does not read anything we post!

They trust in Catholicism not in Jesus.

So as Scripture says

5 What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6 I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow. 7 So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8 The one who plants and the one who waters have one purpose, and they will each be rewarded according to their own labor. 9 For we are co-workers in God’s service; you are God’s field, God’s building.

10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

What about Matthew 28:19?

Is that a suggestion or a requirement?

Immerse them or surround them in the presence of the holy trinity teaching them to do all that I have commanded.

Go back to the Baptism onto Moses in the red sea...who was the rock, what were the cloud...the meaning of the lightning.
They were surrounded by who?

 

[Corinth77777]

I guess I am hopeful lol, but this person does not read anything we post!

They trust in Catholicism not in Jesus.

So as Scripture says

5 What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6 I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow. 7 So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8 The one who plants and the one who waters have one purpose, and they will each be rewarded according to their own labor. 9 For we are co-workers in God’s service; you are God’s field, God’s building.

10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

Immerse them or surround them in the presence of the holy trinity teaching them to do all that I have commanded.

Go back to the Baptism onto Moses in the red sea...who was the rock, what were the cloud...the meaning of the lightning.
They were surrounded by who?

Lets dwelve into the "great commission" in the next post


1Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 5But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

 

[GodsGrace]

Immerse them or surround them in the presence of the holy trinity teaching them to do all that I have commanded.

Go back to the Baptism onto Moses in the red sea...who was the rock, what were the cloud...the meaning of the lightning.
They were surrounded by who?

John the baptist was using water.
There was no baptism in the time of Moses.
It was only a foreshadowing.

 

[Josef]

What about Matthew 28:19?

Is that a suggestion or a requirement?

Hey All,
Neither a suggestion nor a requirement wondering. It is a work of obedience after being saved. If you notice, baptism never comes first. It is always after a person has received Jesus.

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

First there must be teaching. The gospel must be presented.
The Holy Spirit must also give them ears that hear what the Spirit is teaching them through the disciples/apostles.
Once they understand salvation, they must be taught what baptism is and why a believer does it.
They are saved at this point for it is the Holy Spirit that gives them understanding.

Baptism has meaning. There is a reason we do it in public. A person needs to know this meaning before they take the plunge. The people who are in this learning process are not on spiritual probation. They are saved.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[donadams]

Hey All,
God's church doesn't come into me, and sup with me. Jesus does. Rev 3:20. The church of Layodicia was a church in name only. What did Jesus require of them to be saved?

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.


One thing. A heart that has been opened by the grace of God (ears that hear), through faith in Jesus.
How do we know this?
Jesus was on the outside.
Jesus, by his own words, will come in as soon as the door opens (the sinner receives Him). There is no lag time. Jesus never says open the door and get baptized, and then I will come in.

I believe what Jesus did say. All Scripture must align itself to the Word of God. Here we have the actual Word of God telling us when salvation occurs. All the scriptures you quoted must align with the requirement Jesus had or they make Jesus a liar.
I know that's harsh. But it is the truth. I have taken you (donadams) through a very long list of verses, showing you that each one does not require baptism for salvation.

Now I am going to take a different approach. If baptism is necessary, why did Jesus leave it out as a requirement? How do you justify that?

There are only one possibility.
Jesus does not lie.
Jesus does not forget.
Jesus never mentions baptism.
Therefore baptism is not a requirement for salvation.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

1 John 4:6
We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Jn 8:32 And ye (the apostles) shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Jn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you (the Apostles) into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. Then they must teach us! Matt 28:19

 

[donadams]

Hey All,
I am not going through your lists again. I picked out your Ezekiel example to show that error in context leads to error in application.

"A sacrament is an oath! A sacred promise from God! Ez 36:25-27
Acts 2:38-39 (this promise)" Quote from donadams

I am not going to post all of the verses here. You can re-read it. The Ezekiel passage is about God restoring the nation Israel. It is all God's doing for God's purposes.

Here is how I answered the passage cited in a previous post. Nothing has changed.

Acts 2:38-39 repentance & baptism
If you believe baptism to be the second work after salvation, I agree. (I know somewhere on your list is going to be speaking, or confession as a work. I have seen lists like this before.) But again we see being born again, of which repentance is a part, comes first. If baptism is required, John 3:16 is not completely able, by itself, to save someone.

Acts is dealing with an individual.
So Ezekiel 36:25-27, and Acts 2:38-39 is not an apples to apples comparison.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

Scripture does not save anyone, Christ does thru grace by the sacraments, no one can be saved by faith alone! No one is saved until the end Matt 24:13

 

[GodsGrace]

Hey All,
Neither a suggestion nor a requirement wondering. It is a work of obedience after being saved. If you notice, baptism never comes first. It is always after a person has received Jesus.

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

First there must be teaching. The gospel must be presented.
The Holy Spirit must also give them ears that hear what the Spirit is teaching them through the disciples/apostles.
Once they understand salvation, they must be taught what baptism is and why a believer does it.
They are saved at this point for it is the Holy Spirit that gives them understanding.

Baptism has meaning. There is a reason we do it in public. A person needs to know this meaning before they take the plunge. The people who are in this learning process are not on spiritual probation. They are saved.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

I never said otherwise.

However, I do want to say that Jesus does not suggest....
His words are commandments to us.

Plus, I go one step further than you.
A person is saved at acceptance and repentance of course.
NOT when they understand salvation. That could take some time.
At least in some cases.

 

[GodsGrace]

Scripture does not save anyone, Christ does thru grace by the sacraments, no one can be saved by faith alone! No one is saved until the end Matt 24:13

But we can know we are saved right now.
IF WE ENDURE, we will RECEIVE our salvation at the end of time.
This is correct.

But don't believe Paul meant to take our hope away.

Matthew 24:13
"But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

This really speaks to the fact that a person CAN forfeit their salvation IF THEY DO NOT endure to the end.

 

[donadams]

But we can know we are saved right now.
IF WE ENDURE, we will RECEIVE our salvation at the end of time.
This is correct.

But don't believe Paul meant to take our hope away.

Matthew 24:13
"But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

This really speaks to the fact that a person CAN forfeit their salvation IF THEY DO NOT endure to the end.

With justification we enter the process of salvation yes but we must practice the Christian life of prayer and virtue
We have hope yes and eternal life but that is in the grace we received and we must increase grace and persevere to the end
Thanks

 

[GodsGrace]

With justification we enter the process of salvation yes but we must practice the Christian life of prayer and virtue
We have hope yes and eternal life but that is in the grace we received and we must increase grace and persevere to the end
Thanks

I agree that salvation can be called a process.
To be more pecise, I'd say that sanctification is a process,
the CC calls this ongoing justification.
But it means the same.

One of the problems in understanding each other, as I see it, is that Protestants and Catholics use a different language.
Aside from the fact that Catholicism is so misrepresented and this is quite frustrating - even to me.

 

[Corinth77777]

But we can know we are saved right now.

JOHN 10
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Gal 2
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

IF WE ENDURE, we will RECEIVE our salvation at the end of time.
This is correct.

But don't believe Paul meant to take our hope away.

Matthew 24:13
"But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

This really speaks to the fact that a person CAN forfeit their salvation IF THEY DO NOT endure to the end.

Corinth77777


part 2 of 2



Amen. A faith without works is a dead faith.
Faith requires action. The very idea of faith is that it leads us to action in some way.
(even in everyday life).



You can only be baptized one time...
or, it's not real.
My brother went to a church that required him to be baptized in THAT church....He did.
But it's not a church/denomination that baptizes....it's God that does the baptizing.
So it's to be accepted by every church.



Agreed. I understand why Catholics (and Lutherans and others) baptize babies - different topic - but I don't really agree with it. Adults should be baptized and then only when they understand what they're doing....otherwise it's worthless.


So you're talking about preshadowing of baptism. This would then also include the flood and Jonah.



Redeemed back to God.
Good.
One of the Atonement Theories....
The Ransom Theory. Jesus bought us back after being sold to the devil in the Garden.


Great post!
Thanks.

John the baptist was using water.
There was no baptism in the time of Moses.
It was only a foreshadowing.

Trying to show that the immersion is the presence ,surrounding of God

 

[Corinth77777]

JOHN 10
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Gal 2
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.





Trying to show that the immersion is the presence ,surrounding of God

Recall some defining words of the great commission

Immerse, surround them in the Holy Trinity, the presence of God
Make followers, learners, apprentices
By teaching them to DO
All that I commanded you

Another words that one Baptism is the presence of God, life, Reality

One key is in 1 peter 3
When it says and Jesus "made alive" or "Quickened" by the Spirit went and preached to the souls in prison.

And its the baptism that saves us now
Life in the presence of God

This is the new system life under the kingdom of heaven
Or life in the kingdom. (Look where Jesus is in 1 PETER 3, RIGHT HAND OF God, He Rules)

Its life that that gives us a clear conscience before God.

Recall God is not the God of the dead but the living

The New system of Governence is by the Law of the Life giving Spirit. And let me test this out...The law of the life giving Spirit is Love, sacrifice. Read all of 1 Peter 3 when He tells the people they should rejoice in their suffering because it brings others to God.

Obedience to the Spirit is obedience to God.

This is what it means from faith to faith.
The more you obey the Spirit of life, who has conquer death because death cant hold life, the more you see that it's God who will catch you where you lack and make up for the slack. Lol
The whole ideal is to get to a place where we are totally dependent upon God. Who is the author and finisher of our faith. Jesus always did what was pleasing to the father and His Father never left Him alone.
He is the author and finisher of our faith and He who abides in Christ..as Christ is like our DNA lol will grow up and transform to be like Him.

Christ's pefection picks up the slack and we can get back up if we sin to press unward toward the mark. So amazing God is!!!!

Its like the second part of this scripture
If we have been reconciled by His death how much more will we be saved by His life.

Another words if even in His death He has power to save, bring us back to God.

How much More in the resurrected power of His life(my words)
Can He deliver, protect, find peace, all the good blessings etc.

So the Baptism that saves is being surrounded in the presence of God, the Holy Trinity. In which each part of the God head has played /does play a role in salvation. Which has a beginning, middle, and end.

AND SO MY QUESTION OF THE IN THE RED SEA BAPTISM, THE ️ AND THE ️ . WHAT DID THEY PREFIGURE IN MEANING IN THE NEW Testament

​

​

10 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

It sounds like they headed to the voice or teaching of Moses
the outward show was when they walked into the red sea.

Therefore here is what's happening in the inside of the heart(obedience to Moses; God, which is obedience from the heart) which then manifest in an outward show.
Its when the outside and inside are one that we have held up the commandments of God. Therefore God can be known, we can have fellowship in His presence. To be a friend of Jesus to know He has got our back.

So you see where these 2 passages fit:
John14 and see John 15

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

So the Baptism that saves us now, another words an ungoing baptism is God, I am that I am.. "God is"

For its contrasted with ritual washings under the law that they did continually to have fellowship with God. So not the continuous removal of dirt from the skin; ritual washings.

But the answer of a clear conscience is Jesus bringing you in to fellowship with His father by the resurrected power of His Holy Spirit.



Just sharing some thoughts wondering

 

[Corinth77777]

Recall some defining words of the great commission

Immerse, surround them in the Holy Trinity, the presence of God
Make followers, learners, apprentices
By teaching them to DO
All that I commanded you

Another words that one Baptism is the presence of God, life, Reality

One key is in 1 peter 3
When it says and Jesus "made alive" or "Quickened" by the Spirit went and preached to the souls in prison.

And its the baptism that saves us now
Life in the presence of God

This is the new system life under the kingdom of heaven
Or life in the kingdom. (Look where Jesus is in 1 PETER 3, RIGHT HAND OF God, He Rules)

Its life that that gives us a clear conscience before God.

Recall God is not the God of the dead but the living

The New system of Governence is by the Law of the Life giving Spirit. And let me test this out...The law of the life giving Spirit is Love, sacrifice. Read all of 1 Peter 3 when He tells the people they should rejoice in their suffering because it brings others to God.

Obedience to the Spirit is obedience to God.

This is what it means from faith to faith.
The more you obey the Spirit of life, who has conquer death because death cant hold life, the more you see that it's God who will catch you where you lack and make up for the slack. Lol
The whole ideal is to get to a place where we are totally dependent upon God. Who is the author and finisher of our faith. Jesus always did what was pleasing to the father and His Father never left Him alone.
He is the author and finisher of our faith and He who abides in Christ..as Christ is like our DNA lol will grow up and transform to be like Him.

Christ's pefection picks up the slack and we can get back up if we sin to press unward toward the mark. So amazing God is!!!!

Its like the second part of this scripture
If we have been reconciled by His death how much more will we be saved by His life.

Another words if even in His death He has power to save, bring us back to God.

How much More in the resurrected power of His life(my words)
Can He deliver, protect, find peace, all the good blessings etc.

So the Baptism that saves is being surrounded in the presence of God, the Holy Trinity. In which each part of the God head has played /does play a role in salvation. Which has a beginning, middle, and end.

AND SO MY QUESTION OF THE IN THE RED SEA BAPTISM, THE ️ AND THE ️ . WHAT DID THEY PREFIGURE IN MEANING IN THE NEW Testament

​

​

10 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

It sounds like they headed to the voice or teaching of Moses
the outward show was when they walked into the red sea.

Therefore here is what's happening in the inside of the heart(obedience to Moses; God, which is obedience from the heart) which then manifest in an outward show.
Its when the outside and inside are one that we have held up the commandments of God. Therefore God can be known, we can have fellowship in His presence. To be a friend of Jesus to know He has got our back.

So you see where these 2 passages fit:
John14 and see John 15

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

So the Baptism that saves us now, another words an ungoing baptism is God, I am that I am.. "God is"

For its contrasted with ritual washings under the law that they did continually to have fellowship with God. So not the continuous removal of dirt from the skin; ritual washings.

But the answer of a clear conscience is Jesus bringing you in to fellowship with His father by the resurrected power of His Holy Spirit.



Just sharing some thoughts wondering

So why does the Holy Ghost come over people at their water baptism, One reason I believe is because God uses what was in place to teach through symbol.

What is He teaching here? Is what happens in actions of faith is that we are met with the kingdom of God.

God is so amazing...

He don't miss a thing. So orderly!
Recall it's impossible to please God without faith

​

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

WHAT DOES GOD REWARD US WITH? ASK FATHER ABRAHAM OUR FATHER OF FAITH

After these things the word of the Lord came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

In verse 6 what does that mean believe that "he is"
Believe that He exist
Believe that He just is..have to smile, God is just cool with it.

I am that I am the self existing one
That above to me says that you see love- that is God
You see peace- that is God
You experience life- that is God
And therefore God ia all around you

Eph 4:6
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
That is why we should love everyone, because we are loving God..He put His finger upon all His creation.

Just my thoughts, there is always a chance I could be wrong...been wrong many times in life lol

wondering

 

[donadams]

JOHN 10
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Gal 2
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.





Trying to show that the immersion is the presence ,surrounding of God

The of grace only received in the sacraments

Witness of the fathers acts 1:8

A) "It does not suffice to believe. He who believes and is not yet baptized, but is only a Catechumen, has not yet fully acquired salvation." St. Thomas Aquinas

B) "Now, even the Catechumen believes in the Cross of the Lord Jesus, but unless he be baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, he cannot receive remission of his sins nor the gift of spiritual grace." St. Ambrose

C) "Without the Sacrament of Baptism, no one is ever justified. If anyone says that Baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation: let him be anathema." Council of Trent

D)
“There are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptism, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance; yet God does not forgive sins except to the baptized” (Sermons to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15 [A.D. 395]).
St. AUGUSTINE

E) “As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]” (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).
JUSTIN MARTYR

TERTULLIAN
“Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life. . . . [But] a viper of the [Gnostic] Cainite heresy, lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism—which is quite in accordance with nature, for vipers and.asps . . . themselves generally do live in arid and waterless places. But we, little fishes after the example of our [Great] Fish, Jesus Christ, are born in water, nor have we safety in any other way than by permanently abiding in water. So that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little fishes—by taking them away from the water!” (Baptism 1 [A.D. 203]).

“Without baptism, salvation is attainable by none” (ibid., 12).

ORIGEN
“It is not possible to receive forgiveness of sins without baptism” (Exhortation to the Martyrs 30 [A.D. 235]).

CYRIL OF JERUSALEM
“If any man does not receive baptism, he does not have salvation.

St. AUGUSTINE
“There are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptism, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance; yet God does not forgive sins except to the baptized” (Sermons to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15 [A.D. 395]).

POPE LEO I
“And because of the transgression of the first man, the whole stock of the human race was tainted; no one can be set free from the state of the old Adam save through Christ’s sacrament of baptism, in which there are no distinctions between the reborn, as the apostle [Paul] says, ‘For as many of you as were baptized in Christ did put on Christ; there is neither Jew nor Greek . . . ‘ [Gal. 3:27–28]” (Letters 15:10[11] [A.D. 445]).

FULGENTIUS OF RUSPE
“From that time at which our Savior said, ‘If anyone is not reborn of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5], no one can, without the sacrament of baptism, except those who, in the Catholic Church, without baptism, pour out their blood for Christ, receive the kingdom of heaven and life eternal” (The Rule of Faith 43 [A.D. 524]).

Irenaeus
He [Jesus] came to save all through himself – all, I say, who through him are reborn in God; INFANTS, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an INFANT for INFANTS, sanctifying INFANTS; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).

Hippolytus
Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D.215]).

Origen
THE CHURCH RECEIVED FROM THE APOSTLES the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The APOSTLES, to whom were committed the secrets of divine sacraments, knew there is in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).

Cyprian
As to what pertains to the case of INFANTS: You [Fidus] said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, that the old law of circumcision must be taken into consideration, and that you did not think that one should be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day after his birth. In our council it seemed to us far otherwise. No one agreed to the course which you thought should be taken. Rather, we all judge that the mercy and grace of God ought to be denied to no man born" (Letters 64:2 [A.D. 253]).

Augustine
It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that INFANT is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, "Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents" or "by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him," but, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit." The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 408]).

 

[Corinth77777]

The of grace only received in the sacraments

Witness of the fathers acts 1:8

A) "It does not suffice to believe. He who believes and is not yet baptized, but is only a Catechumen, has not yet fully acquired salvation." St. Thomas Aquinas

B) "Now, even the Catechumen believes in the Cross of the Lord Jesus, but unless he be baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, he cannot receive remission of his sins nor the gift of spiritual grace." St. Ambrose

C) "Without the Sacrament of Baptism, no one is ever justified. If anyone says that Baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation: let him be anathema." Council of Trent

D)
“There are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptism, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance; yet God does not forgive sins except to the baptized” (Sermons to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15 [A.D. 395]).
St. AUGUSTINE

E) “As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]” (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).
JUSTIN MARTYR

TERTULLIAN
“Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life. . . . [But] a viper of the [Gnostic] Cainite heresy, lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism—which is quite in accordance with nature, for vipers and.asps . . . themselves generally do live in arid and waterless places. But we, little fishes after the example of our [Great] Fish, Jesus Christ, are born in water, nor have we safety in any other way than by permanently abiding in water. So that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little fishes—by taking them away from the water!” (Baptism 1 [A.D. 203]).

“Without baptism, salvation is attainable by none” (ibid., 12).

ORIGEN
“It is not possible to receive forgiveness of sins without baptism” (Exhortation to the Martyrs 30 [A.D. 235]).

CYRIL OF JERUSALEM
“If any man does not receive baptism, he does not have salvation.

St. AUGUSTINE
“There are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptism, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance; yet God does not forgive sins except to the baptized” (Sermons to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15 [A.D. 395]).

POPE LEO I
“And because of the transgression of the first man, the whole stock of the human race was tainted; no one can be set free from the state of the old Adam save through Christ’s sacrament of baptism, in which there are no distinctions between the reborn, as the apostle [Paul] says, ‘For as many of you as were baptized in Christ did put on Christ; there is neither Jew nor Greek . . . ‘ [Gal. 3:27–28]” (Letters 15:10[11] [A.D. 445]).

FULGENTIUS OF RUSPE
“From that time at which our Savior said, ‘If anyone is not reborn of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5], no one can, without the sacrament of baptism, except those who, in the Catholic Church, without baptism, pour out their blood for Christ, receive the kingdom of heaven and life eternal” (The Rule of Faith 43 [A.D. 524]).

Irenaeus
He [Jesus] came to save all through himself – all, I say, who through him are reborn in God; INFANTS, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an INFANT for INFANTS, sanctifying INFANTS; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).

Hippolytus
Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D.215]).

Origen
THE CHURCH RECEIVED FROM THE APOSTLES the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The APOSTLES, to whom were committed the secrets of divine sacraments, knew there is in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).

Cyprian
As to what pertains to the case of INFANTS: You [Fidus] said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, that the old law of circumcision must be taken into consideration, and that you did not think that one should be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day after his birth. In our council it seemed to us far otherwise. No one agreed to the course which you thought should be taken. Rather, we all judge that the mercy and grace of God ought to be denied to no man born" (Letters 64:2 [A.D. 253]).

Augustine
It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that INFANT is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, "Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents" or "by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him," but, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit." The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 408]).

I am not of the Catholic Doctrines..
I am of Christ
A little leaven spoils the whole lump.

 

[Corinth77777]

The of grace only received in the sacraments

According to your box of doctrines
Unfortunately and hate to tell you the truth
But your words are empty of life.

Again this scripture, you cannot consult Catholic doctrine with.

You must asked yourself? And if you dont ""Know"" notice I did not say , " believe or think" then you need to check the religion you have adopted to.
2 Cor 13:5

Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. "Know" ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
My quotes added on "know"

Witness of the fathers acts 1:8

A) "It does not suffice to believe. He who believes and is not yet baptized, but is only a Catechumen, has not yet fully acquired salvation." St. Thomas Aquinas

B) "Now, even the Catechumen believes in the Cross of the Lord Jesus, but unless he be baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, he cannot receive remission of his sins nor the gift of spiritual grace." St. Ambrose

C) "Without the Sacrament of Baptism, no one is ever justified. If anyone says that Baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation: let him be anathema." Council of Trent

D)
“There are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptism, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance; yet God does not forgive sins except to the baptized” (Sermons to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15 [A.D. 395]).
St. AUGUSTINE

E) “As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]” (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).
JUSTIN MARTYR

TERTULLIAN
“Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life. . . . [But] a viper of the [Gnostic] Cainite heresy, lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism—which is quite in accordance with nature, for vipers and.asps . . . themselves generally do live in arid and waterless places. But we, little fishes after the example of our [Great] Fish, Jesus Christ, are born in water, nor have we safety in any other way than by permanently abiding in water. So that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little fishes—by taking them away from the water!” (Baptism 1 [A.D. 203]).

“Without baptism, salvation is attainable by none” (ibid., 12).

ORIGEN
“It is not possible to receive forgiveness of sins without baptism” (Exhortation to the Martyrs 30 [A.D. 235]).

CYRIL OF JERUSALEM
“If any man does not receive baptism, he does not have salvation.

St. AUGUSTINE
“There are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptism, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance; yet God does not forgive sins except to the baptized” (Sermons to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15 [A.D. 395]).

POPE LEO I
“And because of the transgression of the first man, the whole stock of the human race was tainted; no one can be set free from the state of the old Adam save through Christ’s sacrament of baptism, in which there are no distinctions between the reborn, as the apostle [Paul] says, ‘For as many of you as were baptized in Christ did put on Christ; there is neither Jew nor Greek . . . ‘ [Gal. 3:27–28]” (Letters 15:10[11] [A.D. 445]).

FULGENTIUS OF RUSPE
“From that time at which our Savior said, ‘If anyone is not reborn of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5], no one can, without the sacrament of baptism, except those who, in the Catholic Church, without baptism, pour out their blood for Christ, receive the kingdom of heaven and life eternal” (The Rule of Faith 43 [A.D. 524]).

Irenaeus
He [Jesus] came to save all through himself – all, I say, who through him are reborn in God; INFANTS, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an INFANT for INFANTS, sanctifying INFANTS; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).

Hippolytus
Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D.215]).

Origen
THE CHURCH RECEIVED FROM THE APOSTLES the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The APOSTLES, to whom were committed the secrets of divine sacraments, knew there is in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).

Cyprian
As to what pertains to the case of INFANTS: You [Fidus] said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, that the old law of circumcision must be taken into consideration, and that you did not think that one should be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day after his birth. In our council it seemed to us far otherwise. No one agreed to the course which you thought should be taken. Rather, we all judge that the mercy and grace of God ought to be denied to no man born" (Letters 64:2 [A.D. 253]).

Augustine
It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that INFANT is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, "Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents" or "by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him," but, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit." The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 408]).

 

[donadams]

I am not of the Catholic Doctrines..
I am of Christ
A little leaven spoils the whole lump.

Christ established the one true church!

One:
Holy:
Catholic:
And apostolic!

I’m not surprised to see your not in the new covenant church, the communion of saints, the mystical body of Christ!