Your thoughts on the Trinity?

[SonByAdoption]

Happy Sabbath Elijah674

THESE THREE AGREE IN ONE].' (UNITY! UNITED FAMILY OF GOD, like we are supposed to be.)

1st John 5:7 does not mean that their are 3coequal Gods in heaven or even three beings. If Jesus knew about a third Divine being in heaven surely He would have mentioned Him when the Pharasees were chalenging Him

"I am He who testifies about Myself, and the Father who sent Me testifies about Me"

Then you quoted 1st Timothy 6:14-16 and interpreted it someway trying to use this passage to prove a trinity when in fact it proves the opposite. Let's please look at this passage again.

"That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

"he shall shew, who is" Jesus will show who it is but it doesn't say it will be Jesus.
"the blessed and only Potentate" God's Only Born Son is equal in nature to His Father like every child is equal to his parent but His position the Divine Prince of heaven according to Joshua 5:13-15 so this term only Potentate can not be applying to Him.
"Who only hath immortality"This being has an unconditional immortality and can never die under any circumstance so let's thank God that it is not talking about Jesus who was born in eternity with Self existence as he said as the Father have life in Himself so has He given His Son to have life in Himself but Jesus willingly gave up His immortality so He could become a mortal and die body and soul for us.
" no man hath seen, nor can see""dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto"
definitely not talking about Jesus because many have seen Jesus. He appeared unto Abraham and ate with him. He wrestled with Jacob. Moses saw him in the burning bush. He met with Joshua and was worshipped by him etc etc.

"No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

 

[watchman F]

I have a very difficult time understanding one God in the form of three persons in the sense of who is being spoken of:

If someone says "God" or "the Lord" or "the Lord God", my first thought is "which person of the Trinity are they referring to?" Or are they just referring to God without any specific person in mind?

Also, with most emphasis on the Lord Jesus in preaching, discussions, etc., why aren't the Father and the Holy Spirit emphasized more? For example, I haven't heard too many songs sung about the Holy Spirit.

Some might say I am promoting the doctrine of three Gods-- NO I am not!

Plus, I AM NOT interested in a Trinity vs Oneness debate, either!

I can't understand the Trinity doctrine ( it sounds like a person is saying three Gods exist, which is not true), but I also can't understand modalism, either.

Thoughts?

All Oneness believers are not modalist. Modalist teach that God is the Father Son, and Holy Spirit live I am a father to my children, son to my parents and husband to my wife but still only one person. While Trinitarian teach God is actually three separate people. True Oneness believer believes neither of these. They believe that there is one God who is the Father, that that God became of man, the Son, and the Son is distinct from the Father because of His humanity while remaining the Father through His divinity, and that The Holy Spirit is simply the Spirit of God the Father.

Did that make since? No let me try again.

The teaching of Oneness is this....
#1 The Father is God, Jesus is God, The Holy Spirit is God.
#2 However Jesus Christ is also the Father and the Father is the Holy Spirit.
#3 In other words there is one God the Father, who came in a body (the Son) and who is the Eternal Spirit (the Holy Spirit). So we teach that the Father came in the flesh as Jesus, and is a Spirit ''The Holy Spirit''.
#4 So it is similar to the Trinity doctrine in that we have 3 who are one, but Oneness doctrine says that the 3 ''persons'' are not separate, but actually the same 1, who is God.

This belief is neither trinitarian nor modalist

 

[SonByAdoption]

I have a very difficult time understanding one God in the form of three persons in the sense of who is being spoken of:

If someone says "God" or "the Lord" or "the Lord God", my first thought is "which person of the Trinity are they referring to?" Or are they just referring to God without any specific person in mind?

Also, with most emphasis on the Lord Jesus in preaching, discussions, etc., why aren't the Father and the Holy Spirit emphasized more? For example, I haven't heard too many songs sung about the Holy Spirit.

Some might say I am promoting the doctrine of three Gods-- NO I am not!

Plus, I AM NOT interested in a Trinity vs Oneness debate, either!

I can't understand the Trinity doctrine ( it sounds like a person is saying three Gods exist, which is not true), but I also can't understand modalism, either.

Thoughts?

Maybe I can help you out. I'm guessing here if I'm wrong somebody help me out but there is only 5 verses that that about Jesus is God in the New Testament. The Word was God John wrote. My Lord and My God Thomas proclaimed. My Son is equal with me in nature He also has Divinity as I do He is God, the Father proclaims in Hebrews 1:8

But other than the Bible verses that refer to Jesus as God all the other verses refer to the Father as God. So when the Bible says God and you know that's not one of Christ's verses. Than it's the Father alone being referred to.

When He said that God loved the world that He gave His only Born Son, He wasn't talking about the trinity sending a son. because the trinity doctrine doesn't even have a son only a role play a title only three beings the same age noone ever born from the other. Neither does the JW's God have a son. They only have a created being. So sad. It's truly better to believe the gospel.

And the Holy Spirit is the Spirits or Minds of the Father and Son in your heart

."...he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."...I will love him, and will manifest myself to him""If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him."

You personally have God the Father and His Son's in your heart in their spiritual presences and not some other being. We are Christians and our fellowship is with God and His Son according to John. Only two divine beings.

We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ."Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father

Many times the Father is talking to the Son and vise versa proving they are two separate beings. Many times the Father is prayed to .Sometimes Jesus is prayed to which the Jw's don't like because it totally destroys their theology "Lord Jesus receive my spirit.The first Christian Martyr in Acts 7" Never is the Holy Spirit prayed to or worshiped in the bible so we have no biblical example. Jesus was more full of the Holy spirit than any one that ever lived but He always said that The Father is in me. The Father is in me doing the works.Never the Holy Spirit is in me doing the works.Never referred to His Father's spirit as a separate person. And so do Christians have Christ in them and the Father in them and not a third person.

You should be glad if your church doesn't sing songs to some being named the Holy Spirit means their trying to be Biblical. Angels in Heaven worship The Father who sits on the throne and the Lamb and they have never seen a third divine being. Jews in the OT worshiped the Father and the Son only and never a third being. See Proverbs 30:4. Don't let anyone deceive you. I know holy spirit God having a ghost/ phantom even though God never died and if he did die His ghost/Phantom wouldn't be a separate person having separate thoughts communicating with him. Brother I know this trinity doctrine is very popular as well as the JW created and oneness doctrines are all popular my brother but popular doctrines never save anyone. Please be like the noble bereans and have a Happy Sabbath.

Who has ascended into heaven and descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has wrapped the waters in His garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name or His son's name? Surely you know!"

 

[Elijah674]

The Lords thoughts are my 'Searchings'! Matt. 4:4 + 2 Tim. 3:16. They Say!

Psalms 77
[13] Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: who is so great a God as our God?
[14] Thou art [the God] that doest wonders: thou hast declared thy strength among the people.
So: This is the Doctrine Of Christ in just more of its fullness. 2 John 1:9-11 Unless one 'teaches' against the Rev. 14:6 'Everlasting Gospel' that John penned as not being ETERNAL.

1Cor.10
[1] Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
[2] And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
[3] And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
[4] And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that [[spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.]]
(and yes, surely, this is before Christ came to earth as the Second Adam, as Christ/God/Man. See Psalms 1:7 on to Heb. 1:1-5)

Acts 7

[38] This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
And verse 55 states that Stephen was 'filled with the Holy Ghost'!

Take note of Neh. 9:6 first..

[6] Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and [[the host of heaven worshippeth thee.]]

[7] [[Thou art the LORD the God,]] who didst choose Abram, and broughtest him forth out of Ur of the Chaldees, and gavest him the name of Abraham;

Now note verses 12-14 ibid. on down for who this Christ was as Paul above was Inspired to pen!..

[12] Moreover thou leddest them in the day by a cloudy pillar; and in the night by a pillar of fire, to give them light in the way wherein they should go.
[13] Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments:
[14] And madest known unto them thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant:
[15] And gavest them bread from heaven for their hunger, and broughtest forth water for them out of the rock for their thirst, and promisedst them that they should go in to possess the land which thou hadst sworn to give them.
[16] But they and our fathers dealt proudly, and hardened their necks, and hearkened not to thy commandments, ..'

(take a pause there & consider your 'hardened necks'?? Rev. 17:1-5 and all kinds of Jude's 'WINDS' of satan's trash/heep [doctrines]!)

+ Exod. 32
[15] And Moses turned, and went down from the mount, and the two tables of the testimony were in his hand: the tables were written on both their sides; on the one side and on the other were they written.
[16] And the tables were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, graven upon the tables.
(and this is supposed to be passed by, by me?? ;) Two tables, the first four are our REQUIRED DUTY to God Alone & the next six are our Duty to mankind. Matt. 22:35-40 And Rom. 13 has only the last six documented!)

OK: Back on Topic! CHRIST IS GOD of the Godhead, FACT! Exod. 33

[17] And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
[18] And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
[19] And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
[20] And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
(yet Christ God has a face as in Jehovah God's Image! Gen. 3:22)

[21] And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
[22] And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
[23] And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

OK: Jehovah God & Christ God's [IMAGE] has a FACE, a HAND + HIND PARTS. Both are God of the United Godhead. And the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit DOCUMENTS that HE has not an Image, but defines Himself as Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost. When we read that God is a Spirit, it is Holy Spirit God.

--Elijah

 

[Elijah674]

1 Tim. 1

[15] This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
[16] Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

[17] Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

It appears that this above 'Timothy' is the same penman as 1 Tim. 6:16 + the same Holy Spirit Inspired WORDS. Why would one say.. that it does not say that chapter 6 says.. Jesus, and that these verses were left out of the posting?

And verse 17 finds Christ/God coming to mankind in many forms. Even angels as ministering spirits came to Sodom and appeared to Lot in human likeness. Gen. 19:1 But these ones were Not Christ Immortal which IS SEEN ABOVE WIT ETERNAL IMMORTALITY!! (including talking through a mule ;) )

--Elijah

 

[ka527al]

IF THE Trinity were true, it should be clearly and consistently presented in the Bible. Why? Because, as the apostles affirmed, the Bible is God's revelation of himself to mankind. And since we need to know God to worship him acceptably, the Bible should be clear in telling us just who he is.

What is Trinity?

The Christian doctrine of the Trinity teaches the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead.

Is It Clearly a Bible Teaching?

A PROTESTANT publication states: "The word Trinity is not found in the. It did not find a place formally in the theology of the church till the 4th century." (The Illustrated Bible Dictionary) And a Catholic authority says that the Trinity "is not . . . directly and immediately [the] word of God."—New Catholic Encyclopedia.

The New Testament does not have an explicit doctrine of the Trinity. However, Southern Baptist theologian Frank Stagg emphasizes that the New Testament does repeatedly speak of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit to "compel a trinitarian understanding of God."



WHILE the word "Trinity" is not found in the Bible, is at least the idea of the Trinity taught clearly in it? For instance, what do the Hebrew Scriptures ("Old Testament") reveal?



The Encyclopedia of Religion admits: "Theologians today are in agreement that the Hebrew Bible does not contain a doctrine of the Trinity." And the New Catholic Encyclopedia also says: "The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not taught in the Old Testament."


How Did the Trinity Doctrine Develop?

AT THIS point you might ask: 'If the Trinity is not a Biblical teaching, how did it become a doctrine of Christendom?' Many think that it was formulated at the Council of Nicaea in 325 C.E.

That is not totally correct, however. The Council of Nicaea did assert that Christ was of the same substance as God, which laid the groundwork for later Trinitarian theology. But it did not establish the Trinity, for at that council there was no mention of the holy spirit as the third person of a triune Godhead.

FOR many years, there had been much opposition on Biblical grounds to the developing idea that Jesus was God. To try to solve the dispute, Roman emperor Constantine summoned all bishops to Nicaea. About 300, a fraction of the total, actually attended.

Constantine was not a Christian. Supposedly, he converted later in life, but he was not baptized until he lay dying. Regarding him, Henry Chadwick says in The Early Church: "Constantine, like his father, worshipped the Unconquered Sun; . . . his conversion should not be interpreted as an inward experience of grace . . . It was a military matter. His comprehension of Christian doctrine was never very clear, but he was sure that victory in battle lay in the gift of the God of the Christians."

What role did this unbaptized emperor play at the Council of Nicaea? The Encyclopædia Britannica relates: "Constantine himself presided, actively guiding the discussions, and personally proposed . . . the crucial formula expressing the relation of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council, 'of one substance with the Father' . . . Overawed by the emperor, the bishops, with two exceptions only, signed the creed, many of them much against their inclination."

[FONT=verdana, helvetica, arial, sans serif]'Fourth century Trinitarianism was a deviation from early Christian teaching.' —The Encyclopedia Americana

[/FONT] Further Development
[FONT=verdana, helvetica, arial, sans serif]
[/FONT] AFTER Nicaea, debates on the subject continued for decades. Those who believed that Jesus was not equal to God even came back into favor for a time. But later Emperor Theodosius decided against them. He established the creed of the Council of Nicaea as the standard for his realm and convened the Council of Constantinople in 381 C.E. to clarify the formula.

That council agreed to place the holy spirit on the same level as God and Christ. For the first time, Christendom's Trinity began to come into focus.

Yet, even after the Council of Constantinople, the Trinity did not become a widely accepted creed. Many opposed it and thus brought on themselves violent persecution. It was only in later centuries that the Trinity was formulated into set creeds. The Encyclopedia Americana notes: "The full development of Trinitarianism took place in the West, in the Scholasticism of the Middle Ages, when an explanation was undertaken in terms of philosophy and psychology."



So it took centuries from the time of Christ for the Trinity to become widely accepted in Christendom. And in all of this, what guided the decisions? Was it the Word of God, or was it clerical and political considerations? In Origin and Evolution of Religion, E. W. Hopkins answers: "The final orthodox definition of the trinity was largely a matter of church politics."



[FONT=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]What Does the Bible Say About God and Jesus?[/FONT]


If anyone would like to know answer for this question? Please share your view point after reading through the history behind Trinity concept.....

 

[csmary]

God the Father is the Word of God who is the Alpha and the Omega, the very divine person of God.

God the Son is the only begotten Son of God who sat at the bosom God, He's Lord who took birth on this earth as a human being, He resurrected and sits at the right hand of God.

God the Holyspirit is the divine Spirit of God who is also the third personality of God, who's sent to the Earth as the eternal life giving spirit through the word of God.

Think of us human-beings; we have a body, we have a soul, we have a spirit inside but our body has no eternal life and is subjected to death.

Our soul is not holy without having the Spirit of Lord Jesus and we too have a Spirit in us, either the Spirit of Lord Jesus and Christ or the Spirit of Antichrist

 

[Elijah674]

Hi, Elijah here:
Of all the 12 Apostles + Paul, John was around the longest. Rev. 22 we see penned in AD 96. And surely the Holy Spirit would have corrected any faulty [INSPIRATION] given in all the Bible if it had been faulty? by his pen. Look at all of his books from John 1-3 of even the N.T.. Also, if 2 John 1:9 is as we BELIEVE?? 'Whosoever transgresseth, [and abideth not IN THE DOCTRINE OF CHRIST, HATH NOT GOD]..' So, there is NO doubt for me that the Bible leaves John believing in the 'True' Doctrine of Christ.

OK: Now for the Pro. 8 passages . Remember that Christ was not yet the Son of God! See Psalms 1:7 + Heb. 1:1-5. with verse 5 saying 'Shall Be' a Son. It is important with reading these verses of Proverbs [PROPHECY]. I will jump in between some verse here to just have us [THINK!

]


One on another site says:
Here is Scripture where Jesus is speaking.

Pro 8:22 Jehovah (The Father) possessed me (Jesus) in the beginning of his way, Before his works of old.
---
OK: I respond.. This above also says that God had a [BEGINNING]

That is not true either! The correct understanding as 'i' understand it, (Matt. 4:4 + 2 Tim. 3:16's requirement of Doctrine.. OF CHRIST) is that the GODHEAD of the Immortal three in Unity had Eternally had a future [PLAN] called the Rev. 14:6 ETERNAL GOSPEL, when it was known that it would be needed!
---

Pro 8:23 I (Jesus) was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, Before the earth was.
Pro 8:24 When there were no depths, I (Jesus) was brought forth (From the Father), When there were no fountains abounding with water.
Pro 8:25 Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills was I (Jesus)brought forth; (from the Father)

---
Me again.. Set up?? From eternity! [IMMORTAL in all directions]. So once again, we see here, two that mankind were created in the [IMAGE] of, at least. But the [PLAN] was only [Eternally Know] & not yet needed! Got that??
---

Pro 8:26 While as yet he (The Father) had not made the earth, nor the fields, Nor the beginning of the dust of the world.
Pro 8:27 When he (The Father) established the heavens, I (Jesus) was there: When he (The Father) set a circle upon the face of the deep,
Pro 8:28 When he made firm the skies above, When the fountains of the deep became strong,
Pro 8:29 When he gave to the sea its bound, That the waters should not transgress his commandment, When he marked out the foundations of the earth;

Pro 8:30 Then I (Jesus) was by him (The Father), as a master workman; And I (Jesus) was daily his (The Father's) delight, Rejoicing always before him,(The Father)
Pro 8:31 Rejoicing in his habitable earth; And my delight was with the sons of men.

---
OK: Pay 'close' attention! The above has told about Christ the Son in the [Prophesied] future plan! The forknowledge of the Godhead were all delighted in foreseeing the future plan unfold even before Christ BECAME THE SON/OF/GOD! In Rom. 4:17's last part of the verse we see Truth that might which help one see how God this truth? ''.. even God, who quickeneth the dead, [AND CALLETH THOSE THINGS WHICH ARE NOT (yet!) AS THOUGH THEY WERE].' Such as 'Rejoicing in His habitable earth; An My [DELIGHT WAS WITH THE SON'S OF MEN].' (and when did this take place??

)

You can rest ASSURED that Christ before His birth on earth was one of the Godhead! (just not the Son yet. Acts 7:38)

We are told that God is a Spirit. Two with an Image, and the third God calling Himself Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit. When Adam forfeited his domain of earth by sin, satan took the lost domain. This is where the Plan was then put into motion, with Christ even leaving his Godly power of being omnipresent behind until He went back to heaven faithful as the second Adam, and then the Holy Spirit was again seen in full power representing Christ omnipresent to the world. And Christ would use NO heavenly Power that was not given to Adam to remain sinless while He was on earth.

 

[farouk]

The end of Matthew 28 has the Trinitarian formula, in the Great Commission given to the disciples of the Lord Jesus.

There are plenty of other passages, too, which speak of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

 

[Elijah674]

Psalms 2

[7] I [will declare the decree:] the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; [this day have I begotten] thee.


Acts 13

[30] But God raised him from the dead:
[31] And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.
[32] And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that [the promise] which was made unto the fathers,
[33] God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, [this day have I begotten thee.]

Heb. 1

[1] God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
[2] Hath in these last days [spoken unto us by his Son,] whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also [he made the worlds;]

[3] Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
[4] Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
[5] For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

[6] And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
[7] And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

[8] But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
[9] Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
[10] And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
[11] They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
[12] And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
[13] But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
[14] Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

But not so with God/Christ or God/Jehova! + the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost/God! Gen. 3:22 with both having an IMAGE! Gen. 1:26

Rom. 4:17's last part of this truth is Eternally foreknown by the Godhead...

[16] Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
[17] (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

And that is exactly what Inspiration has told us that the Godhead has, & had done. Of the Three, God/Christ was to become Christ the Son.

--Elijah

 

[WIP]

Jesus is the son of God the Father, God the Father's first creation,

My understanding and belief is that Jesus was not created but is in fact God manifested in human form. "God with us." God in the flesh. "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God."

I don't think it is possible to totally understand or explain the Trinity in human definition. God is not of this world and we can't explain God in worldly terms. It's not possible but we can believe it, accept it, and trust it.

 

[Scotth1960]

Mat 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
Mat 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

Jhn 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

My understanding is that God the Father has a Spirit and that Spirit is holy.(That goes without saying ) Matthew 10:20 calls the Holy Spirit: "the Spirit of your Father" and Jhn 15:26 tell us the Comforter (Holy Spirit) ....proceedeth FROM the Father. (Because it is as Matthew teaches: the Spirit OF the Father )

So we are created in God's image. God has a Spirit as well, called "the Spirit of your Father, that proceeds from Him" That is the Holy Spirit.

The Bible teaches us that Jesus is the image of the invisible God.Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: (So God the Father is invisible , but Jesus is visible)
He is the firstborn: So He came forth from the invisible Father.("born")

Father , Son and Holy Spirit are all one in purpose and WORD. They are one, like WE must be one:


Jhn 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Jhn 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

Now for us to understand the blue part we have to study what the Bible tells us what it means to be IN CHRIST . Then we find out what the blue part says about being ONE.

MOST Christians do not have a clear understanding of this, but it is not a salvation issue, PLUS we are not to separate over this doctrine.
in Christ
C

Dear Cornelius, I agree with you from John 15:26 and Eastern Orthodox tradition that the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, "PROCEEDETH FROM THE FATHER" (KJV). Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Old Catholics, and a MINORITY OF other Christians, BYZANTINE CATHOLIC, Anglicans, Lutherans, Presbyterians, would probably also agree with it, though some of them have a difficult time actually confessing outloud to their fellow WESTERNERS (especially PROTESTANTS) that THE FILIOQUE IS A HERESY.
God have mercy on us and bless us. The TRINITY remains a MYSTERY beyond human comprehension. We must simply believe as sheep believe and hear their Master's voice (JOHN 15:26), believe in Monopatrism (q.v.) and believe everything else the Orthodox Church teaches regarding the All-Holy Trinity of God. IN ERIE PA Scott Harrington

 

[Scotth1960]

I have a very difficult time understanding one God in the form of three persons in the sense of who is being spoken of:

If someone says "God" or "the Lord" or "the Lord God", my first thought is "which person of the Trinity are they referring to?" Or are they just referring to God without any specific person in mind?

Also, with most emphasis on the Lord Jesus in preaching, discussions, etc., why aren't the Father and the Holy Spirit emphasized more? For example, I haven't heard too many songs sung about the Holy Spirit.

Some might say I am promoting the doctrine of three Gods-- NO I am not!

Plus, I AM NOT interested in a Trinity vs Oneness debate, either!

I can't understand the Trinity doctrine ( it sounds like a person is saying three Gods exist, which is not true), but I also can't understand modalism, either.

Thoughts?

Friend, What we need is GOD'S THOUGHTS ON THE TRINITY (JOHN 15:26), etc.

As for TRADITION on the Holy Trinity, see:

JOSEPH P. FARRELL, TRANS. (1987). SAINT PHOTIOS. THE MYSTAGOGY OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. BROOKLINE, MA: HOLY CROSS ORTHODOX PRESS.

HOLY TRANSFIGURATION MONASTERY, TRANS. (1983). SAINT PHOTIOS. ON THE MYSTAGOGY OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. BOSTON, MA: STUDION PUBLISHERS.

SIECIENSKI, A. EDWARD. (2010). THE FILIOQUE: HISTORY OF A DOCTRINAL CONTROVERSY. (OXFORD STUDIES IN HISTORICAL THEOLOGY). NEW YORK: OXFORD UNIVERSITY PRESS.


GOD SAVE ALL OF US FROM THE FILIOQUE TEACHING. IN ERIE PA USA SCOTT R. HARRINGTON:waving

 

[Elijah674]

NO OTHER NAME!! (Part One)
See Acts 4:12!

God said to God/Christ.. '[I WILL](future/tense) declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto *ME,

[THOU] art my SON: [[[THIS DAY HAVE I **BEGOTTEN THEE]]].' Psalms 2:7

SO WHO WAS CHRIST BEFORE HE WAS THE SON??? And DO NOT FORGET THAT THIS IS

ETERNAL GOSPEL! Rev. 14:6 And God was surely NOT TALKING TO HIMSELF!

And Paul Tel's us of when that DAY CAME for CHRIST to [BECOME THE SON] in Acts 13:32-33..

'And we declare unto you glad tidings, how [THAT PROMISE] which was made [UNTO THE FATHERS] [GOD HATH FULFILLED] the same unto [us their children] **IN THAT HE HATH RAISED UP JESUS AGAIN; as it is ALSO written in the second Psalm,

[**THOU ART MY SON THIS DAY **HAVE I BEGOTTEN THEE].'

Again! Who was the GOD/MAN CHRIST before the Eternal PLAN was Consummated?? It is for

sure that God was Not talking to or ABOUT HIMSELF! Yet, the 'us' verse finds these two with

IMMORTALITY, for angels are created beings. (Eze. 28:15)

And the TIME had COME for Christ to BECOME THE SON! And here is another HOLY SPIRIT OR

HOLY GHOST INSPIRED verse to add to the ETERNAL WORD HIMSELF BEFORE HE BECAME THE SON. (and that verse was John 1:3 'The WORD WAS GOD!

In Their UNIFIED CREATION before Adam sinned we see all three Active. After Adam sinned he lost the 'dominion of earth to satan. See Gen. 1:26 & Matt. 4:9.

And at this time the Eternal PLAN of the Rev. 14:6 'ETERNAL GOSPEL' was set into motion. That plan of the Godhead gave satan Adams jurisdiction over earth. And they put Christ in charge of Adams lost domain. (Christ was to be the second Adam) And He lived as man in a sin decayed body.

Take NOTE of a sin/less Christ who has DOCUMENTED below, that the Holy Spirit Himself IS AN [[SEPARATE INDIVIDUAL!]]

John 14 (in part)

[16] And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
...
neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Nevertheless ]I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

[8] And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, (see Gen. 6:3 for His STRIVINGS!) and of righteousness, and of judgment:

....( one needs to remember that they are to be Born Again first! other/wise it is just Gen. 6:3

STRIVINGS! And not Rom. 8:14's LEADING)

(Part two will follow)

​

 

[Elijah674]

(Part Two

[13] Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come,He will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

[14] He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. (?? the question marks are for the many Inspired HE'S Christ uses here! Can one 'see' them??)

[15] All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall

shew it unto you.

(And it seems that that this pennman.. John, who lived right on up to AD 96 would have had the Holy Spirit have him tidy up any mistakes that he 'might' had made, if need be, huh?)


What gets me, is the devil is a LIAR from the beginning, while CHRIST IS SO POSITIVELY CLEAR HERE, and yet, you'ins just keep on with corresponding with his 'agents'!

But remember again that the above verse 8 ones are not being LED as the Born Again ones of Rom. 8:14 are!

OK: ONLY [[[GOD]] HAS IMMORTALITY! Not any creation on THEIRS!

GOD/FATHER GOD/CHRIST GOD/HOLY SPIRIT & OR HOLY GHOST, and these Three have been ETERNALLY 3 Separate individuals. Heb. 13:8

1 John 5:7-8
'For there [ARE THREE] that bear RECORD IN HEAVEN, [THE FATHER], THE [WORD], and the [HOLY GHOST:] and [THESE THREE ARE ONE.] And there are [THREE THAT BEAR RECORD IN EARTH], the [SPIRIT], ...

(if one is Born Again! other/wise His Gen. 6:3's STRIVING is only 'felt' but rejected!)

... and the water, and the blood: and [THESE THREE AGREE IN ONE].' (UNITY! UNITED FAMILY OF GOD, like we are supposed to be.)

'.. Who is blessed and only Potentate, the King of Kings, and Lord of Lords; [WHO ONLY HAS IMMORTALITY], dwelling in the LIGHT WHICH NO MAN CAN APPROACH unto..'

'Now unto the King [[ETERNAL]] [[IMMORTAL]], [[INVISIBLE, the [[ONLY WISE GOD]]..'

Again: TWO with an IMAGE as previously stated by GOD/HOLY/SPIRIT INSPIRATION + the WORD/CHRIST GOD, and all in UNITY as ONE with God the Father as now understood.

And still one must remember that CHRIST IS THE CENTERPIECE of this Eternal/plan after Adam fell, and He came to be the second Adam, & EARTH which was lost by the first Adam was to be reclaimed by Christ/man (Perfect/man!) (compare Isa. 42:21)

--Elijah

 

[Scotth1960]

IF THE Trinity were true, it should be clearly and consistently presented in the Bible. Why? Because, as the apostles affirmed, the Bible is God's revelation of himself to mankind. And since we need to know God to worship him acceptably, the Bible should be clear in telling us just who he is.

What is Trinity?

The Christian doctrine of the Trinity teaches the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead.

Is It Clearly a Bible Teaching?

A PROTESTANT publication states: "The word Trinity is not found in the. It did not find a place formally in the theology of the church till the 4th century." (The Illustrated Bible Dictionary) And a Catholic authority says that the Trinity "is not . . . directly and immediately [the] word of God."—New Catholic Encyclopedia.

The New Testament does not have an explicit doctrine of the Trinity. However, Southern Baptist theologian Frank Stagg emphasizes that the New Testament does repeatedly speak of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit to "compel a trinitarian understanding of God."



WHILE the word "Trinity" is not found in the Bible, is at least the idea of the Trinity taught clearly in it? For instance, what do the Hebrew Scriptures ("Old Testament") reveal?



The Encyclopedia of Religion admits: "Theologians today are in agreement that the Hebrew Bible does not contain a doctrine of the Trinity." And the New Catholic Encyclopedia also says: "The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not taught in the Old Testament."


How Did the Trinity Doctrine Develop?

AT THIS point you might ask: 'If the Trinity is not a Biblical teaching, how did it become a doctrine of Christendom?' Many think that it was formulated at the Council of Nicaea in 325 C.E.

That is not totally correct, however. The Council of Nicaea did assert that Christ was of the same substance as God, which laid the groundwork for later Trinitarian theology. But it did not establish the Trinity, for at that council there was no mention of the holy spirit as the third person of a triune Godhead.

FOR many years, there had been much opposition on Biblical grounds to the developing idea that Jesus was God. To try to solve the dispute, Roman emperor Constantine summoned all bishops to Nicaea. About 300, a fraction of the total, actually attended.

Constantine was not a Christian. Supposedly, he converted later in life, but he was not baptized until he lay dying. Regarding him, Henry Chadwick says in The Early Church: "Constantine, like his father, worshipped the Unconquered Sun; . . . his conversion should not be interpreted as an inward experience of grace . . . It was a military matter. His comprehension of Christian doctrine was never very clear, but he was sure that victory in battle lay in the gift of the God of the Christians."

What role did this unbaptized emperor play at the Council of Nicaea? The Encyclopædia Britannica relates: "Constantine himself presided, actively guiding the discussions, and personally proposed . . . the crucial formula expressing the relation of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council, 'of one substance with the Father' . . . Overawed by the emperor, the bishops, with two exceptions only, signed the creed, many of them much against their inclination."

[FONT=verdana, helvetica, arial, sans serif]'Fourth century Trinitarianism was a deviation from early Christian teaching.' —The Encyclopedia Americana

[/FONT] Further Development
[FONT=verdana, helvetica, arial, sans serif]
[/FONT] AFTER Nicaea, debates on the subject continued for decades. Those who believed that Jesus was not equal to God even came back into favor for a time. But later Emperor Theodosius decided against them. He established the creed of the Council of Nicaea as the standard for his realm and convened the Council of Constantinople in 381 C.E. to clarify the formula.

That council agreed to place the holy spirit on the same level as God and Christ. For the first time, Christendom's Trinity began to come into focus.

Yet, even after the Council of Constantinople, the Trinity did not become a widely accepted creed. Many opposed it and thus brought on themselves violent persecution. It was only in later centuries that the Trinity was formulated into set creeds. The Encyclopedia Americana notes: "The full development of Trinitarianism took place in the West, in the Scholasticism of the Middle Ages, when an explanation was undertaken in terms of philosophy and psychology."



So it took centuries from the time of Christ for the Trinity to become widely accepted in Christendom. And in all of this, what guided the decisions? Was it the Word of God, or was it clerical and political considerations? In Origin and Evolution of Religion, E. W. Hopkins answers: "The final orthodox definition of the trinity was largely a matter of church politics."



[FONT=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]What Does the Bible Say About God and Jesus?[/FONT]


If anyone would like to know answer for this question? Please share your view point after reading through the history behind Trinity concept.....

Friends, The HEBREW Bible DOES teach the HOLY TRINITY. GENESIS 1:26 ESV reads, "Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. ...."


Who is the "US" and the "OUR" referring to, which persons? God clearly is not just one person. Scripture clearly shows in both the OT and the NT that God is "ONE GOD" and only "ONE SPIRIT". But Scripture shows that GOD IS NOT ONLY ONE PERSON. GOD IS ONE SPIRIT. GOD IS THREE PERSONS. HE IS THE FATHER, THE SON, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT. In Erie PA USA Scott R. Harrington:waving

 

[Scotth1960]

I have a very difficult time understanding one God in the form of three persons in the sense of who is being spoken of:

If someone says "God" or "the Lord" or "the Lord God", my first thought is "which person of the Trinity are they referring to?" Or are they just referring to God without any specific person in mind?

Also, with most emphasis on the Lord Jesus in preaching, discussions, etc., why aren't the Father and the Holy Spirit emphasized more? For example, I haven't heard too many songs sung about the Holy Spirit.

Some might say I am promoting the doctrine of three Gods-- NO I am not!

Plus, I AM NOT interested in a Trinity vs Oneness debate, either!

I can't understand the Trinity doctrine ( it sounds like a person is saying three Gods exist, which is not true), but I also can't understand modalism, either.

Thoughts?

Friend, The Trinity is The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. That is what all Christians believe, but no one of them understands the mystery of God the Holy Trinity. :nod

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

I have a very difficult time understanding one God in the form of three persons in the sense of who is being spoken of:

If someone says "God" or "the Lord" or "the Lord God", my first thought is "which person of the Trinity are they referring to?" Or are they just referring to God without any specific person in mind?

Also, with most emphasis on the Lord Jesus in preaching, discussions, etc., why aren't the Father and the Holy Spirit emphasized more? For example, I haven't heard too many songs sung about the Holy Spirit.

Some might say I am promoting the doctrine of three Gods-- NO I am not!

Plus, I AM NOT interested in a Trinity vs Oneness debate, either!

I can't understand the Trinity doctrine ( it sounds like a person is saying three Gods exist, which is not true), but I also can't understand modalism, either.

Thoughts?

The trinity is a religious construct derived from pagan antiquity that has been incorporated into a doctrine of the church. From a scriptural perspective the Bible is clear that their may be many gods (mighty ones both on Earth and of heaven), but their is but one FATHER GOD who is the God of all, even the 'gods'.
Jesus himself is subject to THE FATHER and the breath (holy spirit) is NOT a personage of the GOD.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Simple questions to ponder.

1. Who is Jesus' God?

2. Does the Father have a God?

 

[Scotth1960]

Mat 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
Mat 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

Jhn 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

My understanding is that God the Father has a Spirit and that Spirit is holy.(That goes without saying ) Matthew 10:20 calls the Holy Spirit: "the Spirit of your Father" and Jhn 15:26 tell us the Comforter (Holy Spirit) ....proceedeth FROM the Father. (Because it is as Matthew teaches: the Spirit OF the Father )

So we are created in God's image. God has a Spirit as well, called "the Spirit of your Father, that proceeds from Him" That is the Holy Spirit.

The Bible teaches us that Jesus is the image of the invisible God.Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: (So God the Father is invisible , but Jesus is visible)
He is the firstborn: So He came forth from the invisible Father.("born")

Father , Son and Holy Spirit are all one in purpose and WORD. They are one, like WE must be one:


Jhn 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Jhn 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

Now for us to understand the blue part we have to study what the Bible tells us what it means to be IN CHRIST . Then we find out what the blue part says about being ONE.

MOST Christians do not have a clear understanding of this, but it is not a salvation issue, PLUS we are not to separate over this doctrine.
in Christ
C

AMEN Cornelius. The Spirit of truth (Holy Spirit) proceedeth from the Father (JOHN 15:26). In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
:nod