Are We Lost Without A Church?

[Papa Zoom]

Im sorry sir your wife died. May her soul R.I.P
Im in a similar situation. My wif thankfully did not die , but elected to reject me ( divorce). It's like bereavement, and yet not the same. But the Lord drew very close to me after she rejected me. Hopefully we all will fulfill our vows made to God @ time of marriage and never reject our Spouses. God bless everyone ?

Divorce brings with it a lot of similar feelings as in death. But in divorce there are other factors that bring sorrow. Being rejected can be devastating. I'm sorry for your loss as well. I attended a griefshare group and learned of a group similar for those who've experienced divorce. https://www.divorcecare.org/ You can put in your zip code and see if there is a group in your area. Here are the topic covered: https://www.divorcecare.org/topics I plan on going to griefshare group again and maybe convince my girlfriend (she's divorced) to attend the divorcecare group. It looks like it would be very helpful in your healing. Blessings brother. Thanks for the note.

 

[PaulChristensen]

In Christ Jesus all things hold together. We are nourished by Him. The body of believers does not give life. I understand those in Him are members of the body of Christ. But I would rather state apart from Jesus you can't be saved rather than apart from the church.

I agree. Those who teach that one needs a church in order to be saved are those who hold to the Covering heresy, that every believe has to have the Covering of a shepherd or a church in order to be a full part of the Body of Christ.

In actual fact, it is tantamount to denying Christ and preaching another gospel, and forcing believers to adopt a Covering other than Christ is putting them on the road to hell.

The Covering doctrine is an insult to God and is not the spirit of the gospel at all.

 

[Elihoenai]

Matthew 16:18 King James Version

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

The Church is the one the gates of hell has not prevailed against. Does any member on these forums know of such a Church?

 

[Christ_empowered]

what the calvinists termed the 'invisible church,' the Body of Christ at any given time, on earth...made up of genuine converts...

-sigh- church never 'worked out' for me. Presbyterian, church politics I think. introduced to that old time Pentecostal religion...

more of the same, plus anti-intellectualism, authoritarianism, and what seems to me to be some blatantly un-Scriptural beliefs and practices, some bordering upon folk magic territory.

-shrug- i never wanted perfection, honestly. but...a place that offered more than feel good sound bites and fried chicken would be nice. so would a place that will take believers where we/they are, but still follows Scripture on identifying and repenting of sin, sin patterns.

i was...heckled, by a bunch of people in the parking lot of a different, 'progressive and inclusive' Presby church. heckled in the parking lot of a conservative megachurch, now southern baptist. cant go back to the presby church i went to till age 14 or so. a) its been over 20 years and b) i never was a member of that community, never will be.

i come here to fellowship. i think i've been sharpened a bit, here...maybe more than i would in a real time church? i mean, its a free (religious) market...you don't like what church A is selling, check out churches b and c. the flip side of that is that churches do not seem to have the time or inclination to truly disciple their congregants...

which is what it is, i suppose. looking to Scripture...'many are called, few are chosen...' arrogantly enough (LOL), I do believe myself to be 'chosen,' mostly because of His work in my life these past 8 years. so...

i think back, to sunday school...where are they now? who are they now? few believers. lots of middle and upper class families, so lots of 'success' stories. i was a failure, long story...that was kind of scripted, too (born working class, labeled, etc.), but...ok. 8 years in, my redemption...seems to rub a lot of people the wrong way, and...

rambling. lots of people cannot 'do church,' maybe its always been this way? the puritans had their occasional witch hunts, shunning people for adultery or divorce (rare, but did happen now and then), and now...

? my attempts at 'doing church' ended in rejection, without fail. i look in the mirror...36, healthy, normal. im surprisingly well dressed, these days. im not the down and out reject i was even 3, 5 years ago...

the cold shoulder remains, for different reasons. why bother? i get that from society, at large. i doubt I'm the only one.

 

[Hopeful]

my link ,chapter 25 says that .

however ,unless you really can't find one that's likely not an excuse to stay home .
plenty of churches exist,perfect ?no

I disagree.
God didn't leave those who seek Him alone.
The real, perfect, church is out there.

 

[Hopeful]

Matthew 16:18 King James Version

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

The Church is the one the gates of hell has not prevailed against. Does any member on these forums know of such a Church?

Yes, the "Church by Christ Jesus (Eph 3:21)".

 

[PaulChristensen]

Yes, the "Church by Christ Jesus (Eph 3:21)".

I found the perfect church, but I joined it and it was no longer perfect!

 

[Hopeful]

I found the perfect church, but I joined it and it was no longer perfect!

You didn't stay there long, did you?

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

what the calvinists termed the 'invisible church,' the Body of Christ at any given time, on earth...made up of genuine converts...

-sigh- church never 'worked out' for me. Presbyterian, church politics I think. introduced to that old time Pentecostal religion...

more of the same, plus anti-intellectualism, authoritarianism, and what seems to me to be some blatantly un-Scriptural beliefs and practices, some bordering upon folk magic territory.

-shrug- i never wanted perfection, honestly. but...a place that offered more than feel good sound bites and fried chicken would be nice. so would a place that will take believers where we/they are, but still follows Scripture on identifying and repenting of sin, sin patterns.

i was...heckled, by a bunch of people in the parking lot of a different, 'progressive and inclusive' Presby church. heckled in the parking lot of a conservative megachurch, now southern baptist. cant go back to the presby church i went to till age 14 or so. a) its been over 20 years and b) i never was a member of that community, never will be.

i come here to fellowship. i think i've been sharpened a bit, here...maybe more than i would in a real time church? i mean, its a free (religious) market...you don't like what church A is selling, check out churches b and c. the flip side of that is that churches do not seem to have the time or inclination to truly disciple their congregants...

which is what it is, i suppose. looking to Scripture...'many are called, few are chosen...' arrogantly enough (LOL), I do believe myself to be 'chosen,' mostly because of His work in my life these past 8 years. so...

i think back, to sunday school...where are they now? who are they now? few believers. lots of middle and upper class families, so lots of 'success' stories. i was a failure, long story...that was kind of scripted, too (born working class, labeled, etc.), but...ok. 8 years in, my redemption...seems to rub a lot of people the wrong way, and...

rambling. lots of people cannot 'do church,' maybe its always been this way? the puritans had their occasional witch hunts, shunning people for adultery or divorce (rare, but did happen now and then), and now...

? my attempts at 'doing church' ended in rejection, without fail. i look in the mirror...36, healthy, normal. im surprisingly well dressed, these days. im not the down and out reject i was even 3, 5 years ago...

the cold shoulder remains, for different reasons. why bother? i get that from society, at large. i doubt I'm the only one.

I learned a lot here . My previous Believe and get saved Church had stunned my spiritual growth, made me narrow minded Christian who was not suppose to tolerate others ( especially christisns!) who were not "cutting the Word straight ". My ex wife was right ( as I teslize now ) , these Church members had become Phsrisees of today. Not an inkling of love or compassion for any one except their own flock of 500 people. To them only these 500 were going to heaven. All others were already condemned. They would openly ptonounce judgment on every other Church and denomination.
They were puzzled and shocked and even furious when I rejected the Church and came here in 2017 . I kept in touch with some of the Elders there .
I asked them 3 questions months ago . They had no reply. They became angry initially then nervous and insecure. They called my questions heretical, but botyomline was they had no answer. Bunch of very smart people run that Church. Most our from NASA. Im on the other hand a small timer, an average Joe. But I love the Lord and I like to ask questions . These are the two questions I asked them :
What metric did Jesus use on the judgment day as described in the vision of Sheep and Goats vision He provided us in Matthew 25:31-46
( it was anything but saved by faith alone)
2) Whst metric did Jesus use to lift the idol worshipping part Pagan, part Jew, Good Samaritan in the story the Lord provided , and this Samaritan who had no relationship with Christ captured the heart of the Messiah. What was it in the Good Samaritan then that captured Christ's heart?
3) My ex Church kept pounding we are not under Law but Grace. Mosaic Law is gone... My 3rd question to them was " Hiw is the Kotd God's given Law dead and gone since Jesus makes it abundantly clear in Matthew 5:17-18 that the Whole universe can crash and burn BUT The Law given by God simply.cannot.go. ?
They had no answer to any of these questions, and were disturbed that I had asked them. I told them please don't call God's Law " Mosaic Law" to shake the guilt off their minds they had got rid of God's Law! Well I told them Moses was not the Origin of that Law . He was a post man of the Lord God who had written the Law with His fingers on the Two Tablets Moses carried to the people of Israel.
I also reminded my ex Church that the SAME LAW given by Father God is now written on OUR MINDS and our HEARTS from where no man. or Church can get rid off. It's in Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 10:16.
True to His promise and words in Matthew 5:17-18 , Jesus did teach us How to Fulfill the ENTIRE LAW and the teachings of the Prophets . He tsughtvthis in Matthew 22:37-40 and retreated the same message albeit in different words in Matthew 7 :12 what is now called universally as the " Golden rule "
Even in the parable of Good Samaritan when the Teacher of the Law who asked Jesus what must he do to inherit eternal life Jesus yet again says what he teaches in Matthew 22 :37-40 . Finally what he taught in these above mentioned verses was the MTERIC the critetion that Jesus used ( will use on the last day) in Vidion of judgment day , Matthew 25:31-46.
From their failure to answer any of these questions I concluded a Church cannot save anyone . Especially if they themselves need to edified . For they will them teach error and all Church goers eill unite in that error. As happened to my ex Church

But Jesus taught

 

[PaulChristensen]

You didn't stay there long, did you?

I stayed with it for 23 years. My view of the church is that it is more a hospital for sinners rather than a showcase of perfect "saints". My last Charismatic church prided itself on being near to the "perfect" church, but I did leave it after five years, totally disillusioned and vowing never to associate myself with any other Charismatic church. But I did not abandon by Continuation theology, because it is not based in any particular church because it is Bible.

 

[Elihoenai]

Yes, the "Church by Christ Jesus (Eph 3:21)".

Luke 6:39 King James Version

39 And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?

Amen!!!

Will also rephrase the question slightly: The Church is the one the gates of hell has not prevailed against. Does any member on these forums know of "The Church by Messiah/Christ Yeshua/Jesus"?

Another question:
I have never attended a Church where the Pastor of 5 years or 50 years have not declared that he is Human and a Sinner like everybody else. Why do people attend Churches where the Pastor and Denomination after all these years have not found the solution to Sin? At the same said Pastor declares that he knows Messiah/Christ and has personal relationship with him.

 

[Serving Zion]

I have never attended a Church where the Pastor of 5 years or 50 years have not declared that he is Human and a Sinner like everybody else. Why do people attend Churches where the Pastor and Denomination after all these years have not found the solution to Sin?

Amos 8:11

Tree of Life Version

​

11 “Behold, days are coming”
—declares my Lord Adonai—
“when I will send a famine on the land
—not a famine of bread
nor a thirst for water,
but of hearing the words of Adonai.[a]


It seems to me that the people who attend churches while knowing that the preacher isn't sanctified, are so hungry for the Word of life that they are prepared to eat a plate full of dust in hope to have only one morsel from the Lord Himself (Matthew 18:20, John 6:63,68). I have a question of the same vein: while every church tauts a cliche "there is none righteous for all have fallen short of the glory of God", where is the congregation of the righteous spoken of in Psalms 1:5?

 

[Hopeful]

I stayed with it for 23 years. My view of the church is that it is more a hospital for sinners rather than a showcase of perfect "saints". My last Charismatic church prided itself on being near to the "perfect" church, but I did leave it after five years, totally disillusioned and vowing never to associate myself with any other Charismatic church. But I did not abandon by Continuation theology, because it is not based in any particular church because it is Bible.

Do you really think it is wise to stay with something that you feel is bad for you, even one day?

 

[Hopeful]

Luke 6:39 King James Version

39 And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?

Amen!!!

Will also rephrase the question slightly: The Church is the one the gates of hell has not prevailed against. Does any member on these forums know of "The Church by Messiah/Christ Yeshua/Jesus"?

Nope. Where are they located?

Another question:
I have never attended a Church where the Pastor of 5 years or 50 years have not declared that he is Human and a Sinner like everybody else. Why do people attend Churches where the Pastor and Denomination after all these years have not found the solution to Sin? At the same said Pastor declares that he knows Messiah/Christ and has personal relationship with him.

They falsely feel safety in numbers.
If the pastor and elders are dirty tainted men of the flesh, they feel right at home.

 

[Hopeful]

Amos 8:11​

​

Tree of Life Version​

​

​

11 “Behold, days are coming”
—declares my Lord Adonai—
“when I will send a famine on the land
—not a famine of bread
nor a thirst for water,
but of hearing the words of Adonai.[a]


It seems to me that the people who attend churches while knowing that the preacher isn't sanctified, are so hungry for the Word of life that they are prepared to eat a plate full of dust in hope to have only one morsel from the Lord Himself (Matthew 18:20, John 6:63,68). I have a question of the same vein: while every church tauts a cliche "there is none righteous for all have fallen short of the glory of God", where is the congregation of the righteous spoken of in Psalms 1:5?

If you seek it, God will reveal the answer to you.

 

[Serving Zion]

If you seek it, God will reveal the answer to you.

How long do you think it will take? I started seeking it a couple of years back. Sold my house, went overseas... I keep finding the same over and over. They are all like sheep scattered with no shepherd. Like the body of Christ decapitated.

 

[Isilwen]

Really don't know how to answer this question.

My kids are with me every weekend, however, my ex-wife has the final say on where they attend church, and she doesn't want them in an episcopal church, which is my chosen church after leaving the Catholic church as a cradle Catholic. So, I haven't been to church in well over three years. The only two churches she will allow are a non-denominational heavy Pentecostal leaning church or a Baptist church. No thanks on either of those churches. I have been to both and they are not for me.

I prefer a liturgical church. She does not. So, we are at an impasse. I just read my Bible at home.

 

[PaulChristensen]

Do you really think it is wise to stay with something that you feel is bad for you, even one day?

I never said that any church I attended was "bad" for me. I said it was not "perfect" in the sense that it was not a perfect showcase for perfect Christians. The church is not the building or the religious organisation or structure. It is the people in it. What makes a church imperfect is that the people who belong to it are imperfect.

The type of church that I would never join is one that departs from the teaching of Christ as found in the four Gospels and the Epistles. That includes LDS, JW, RCC, SDA, UPC, and WOF, Kenny Copeland style. Those are the churches that have departed from the teaching of Christ and I don't think I would be fellowshiping with genuinely converted believers in them. The Scripture says not to fellowship with such people, have meals in their homes, or bid them God speed.

But in the Anglican, Baptist, Pentecostal, Charismatic, and Presbyterian churches I have been associated with over the years, I have found core groups of folk who love the Lord, hold to Christ's teaching, and seek to do God's will in their lives.

 

[Hopeful]

How long do you think it will take? I started seeking it a couple of years back. Sold my house, went overseas... I keep finding the same over and over. They are all like sheep scattered with no shepherd. Like the body of Christ decapitated.

Have you quit sinning?
A true repentance from sin produces a non-sinner.
Start with that, as "God heareth not sinners." (John 9:31)

 

[Hopeful]

I never said that any church I attended was "bad" for me. I said it was not "perfect" in the sense that it was not a perfect showcase for perfect Christians. The church is not the building or the religious organisation or structure. It is the people in it. What makes a church imperfect is that the people who belong to it are imperfect.

The type of church that I would never join is one that departs from the teaching of Christ as found in the four Gospels and the Epistles. That includes LDS, JW, RCC, SDA, UPC, and WOF, Kenny Copeland style. Those are the churches that have departed from the teaching of Christ and I don't think I would be fellowshiping with genuinely converted believers in them. The Scripture says not to fellowship with such people, have meals in their homes, or bid them God speed.

But in the Anglican, Baptist, Pentecostal, Charismatic, and Presbyterian churches I have been associated with over the years, I have found core groups of folk who love the Lord, hold to Christ's teaching, and seek to do God's will in their lives.

If a group isn't good for you, it is bad for you.