Are We Lost Without A Church?

[Christ_empowered]

i dunno. it seems...self-serving...to say that one should be permitted to study Scripture, pray and reflect, and fellowship long distance, but...

ugh. a local megachurch is trying to fend off a lawsuit. dude at one of their locations was suspected of pedophilia at another megachurch. passed a background check. someone from other church -called- this church and this church let him keep on volunteering, with children, and...

he's facing 40 years in prison for pedophilia, now, because of acts allegedly committed -at the church- .

on and on and on...

its not that I am personally 'better' than a church or the people in it, just...so many nightmares, disasters, burned people, damaged faith...

is it modern society?

 

[Elihoenai]

Amos 8:11

Tree of Life Version

​

11 “Behold, days are coming”
—declares my Lord Adonai—
“when I will send a famine on the land
—not a famine of bread
nor a thirst for water,
but of hearing the words of Adonai.[a]


It seems to me that the people who attend churches while knowing that the preacher isn't sanctified, are so hungry for the Word of life that they are prepared to eat a plate full of dust in hope to have only one morsel from the Lord Himself (Matthew 18:20, John 6:63,68). I have a question of the same vein: while every church tauts a cliche "there is none righteous for all have fallen short of the glory of God", where is the congregation of the righteous spoken of in Psalms 1:5?

Are you saying that The Righteous are Sinless?

 

[Elihoenai]

The parable is nothing like people belonging or not belong to a church. It is about a teacher needing to be fully trained before teaching others. If you are using this verse to show that church leaders are blind, leading members who are blind, you are really twisting this Scripture right out of what it really means.

I think you have a total misunderstanding of what church is all about. A good church is more of a fellowship centre where believers are encouraged and supported, than a religious temple.

You sound like the soldier who is out of step with the rest of the platoon but thinks he is actually in step while all the others are out of step!

We are talking about The Church and A Church. You post is a perfect description of A Church.

 

[Serving Zion]

Are you saying that The Righteous are Sinless?

I can't see how it might be implied by what I have said, but it is an interesting question! I'd have to give some thought to it. What made you think that I was equating righteousness to sinlessness?

 

[Serving Zion]

i dunno. it seems...self-serving...to say that one should be permitted to study Scripture, pray and reflect, and fellowship long distance, but...

ugh. a local megachurch is trying to fend off a lawsuit. dude at one of their locations was suspected of pedophilia at another megachurch. passed a background check. someone from other church -called- this church and this church let him keep on volunteering, with children, and...

he's facing 40 years in prison for pedophilia, now, because of acts allegedly committed -at the church- .

on and on and on...

its not that I am personally 'better' than a church or the people in it, just...so many nightmares, disasters, burned people, damaged faith...

is it modern society?

Who really knows the truth? That's the key of it. The devil is the father of lies, and if there is allegation and denial then obviously someone is not of the truth. I don't think that can be wholly blamed on modern society, but on human nature itself. Why is nobody asking the questions that lead to the real knowledge of the truth, instead allowing rumours to rule and suspicions to flare?

 

[Serving Zion]

Who really knows the truth? That's the key of it. The devil is the father of lies, and if there is allegation and denial then obviously someone is not of the truth. I don't think that can be wholly blamed on modern society, but on human nature itself. Why is nobody asking the questions that lead to the real knowledge of the truth, instead allowing rumours to rule and suspicions to flare?

Actually, in context of 2 Corinthians 2:11, perhaps it is a modern problem. Paul seems to expect that the churches aren't ignorant of Satan's devices, but the way your churches are going about it (Christ_empowered) tells us that they are.

 

[Hopeful]

Oh? So Jesus did not pay the price for all your sins then?
And you are totally sin-free?

I don't see why both can't be true.
He paid for my sins, so I don't sin any more.
Isn't your love that complete?

Of course, even the most minor sin is transgression of God's moral law and is equal to infracting the whole law as far as God is concerned. So, to tell people that because they sin God won't hear their prayers, you have to be totally sin-free yourself otherwise by the same measure of judgment, God won't hear your prayers either.

I didn't "say" it, I quoted the man who was healed, who had heard it from Psalms...or other places.

Of course, the quote, "God does not hear sinners" was spoken by an unconverted Jewish man before the death and resurrection of Christ, and he directed his comments toward the hypocritical Pharisees. So, a "sinner" in Jewish terms is someone who does not comply with the Law of Moses. But the New Covenant definition a "sinner" is a person who has not yet turned to Christ to have faith in Him.
So, unless your personal righteousness exceeds the blameless righteousness of the Pharisees, you have a pretty big finger pointing back at yourself when you judge others concerning their "sins".

Nobody who is "in Christ" is not more righteous that someone who is not in Christ.
BTW, nobody was 'converted" till after the resurrection and could be baptized into Christ and into His death, burial, and resurrection. (Rom 6:3-7)

 

[PaulChristensen]

I don't see why both can't be true.
He paid for my sins, so I don't sin any more.
Isn't your love that complete?

I didn't "say" it, I quoted the man who was healed, who had heard it from Psalms...or other places.

Nobody who is "in Christ" is not more righteous that someone who is not in Christ.
BTW, nobody was 'converted" till after the resurrection and could be baptized into Christ and into His death, burial, and resurrection. (Rom 6:3-7)

I think that maybe you need to learn more about the righteousness of Christ.

 

[Hopeful]

I think that maybe you need to learn more about the righteousness of Christ.

It is written..."Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous." (1 John 3:6-7)

It is also written..."But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: " (Rom 3:21-22)

I can't subscribe to a righteousness that is less than my Savior's righteousness.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Can we be saved without a church?
Why?

Of course!! Salvation (Becoming Born again of the Holy Spirit) is a PERSONAL TRANSACTION between a person and God, who drew them to Christ, Convicts them of SIN, and Gifts them with the FAITH to Call on God to apply the SIN OFFERING of Jesus to their lives, cleansing them from SIN. The "institutional Church" may or may not have anything to do with it, and in the case of Some Churches, the person may become saved IN SPITE of the church, instead of because of it. I was Born Again in my Bedroom, and only had anything to do with "Church" afterwards.

 

[PaulChristensen]

It is written..."Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous." (1 John 3:6-7)

It is also written..."But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: " (Rom 3:21-22)

I can't subscribe to a righteousness that is less than my Savior's righteousness.

Correct. Therefore the person who is actually sinner is depending on his own righteousness than trusting in the righteousness of God in Christ.

 

[EvolvingChristian]

I don't attend church. I believe it's boring and a waste of time. I do seek the word of God in the bible, through listening to YouTube sermons, reading books written by folks such as John MacArthur and participating in communities such as this.

 

[PaulChristensen]

I wonder how you can follow the instructions in God's word to love your brothers and sisters in Christ if you shut yourself away from having any fellowship with them, and how can you make any sort of contribution to the body of Christ if all you do is watch YouTube videos? It's not what you get out of a church but what you put into it. If you are just a self serving leech just wanting to take from other committed hard working ministries and put nothing back then it is no wonder you find church boring! Any pew sitting drone would!

 

[Elihoenai]

I can't see how it might be implied by what I have said, but it is an interesting question! I'd have to give some thought to it. What made you think that I was equating righteousness to sinlessness?

By this statement you made: "every church tauts a cliche "there is none righteous for all have fallen short of the glory of God"

Are you saying that this cliche gives A Church license to Sin?

 

[EvolvingChristian]

I wonder how you can follow the instructions in God's word to love your brothers and sisters in Christ if you shut yourself away from having any fellowship with them, and how can you make any sort of contribution to the body of Christ if all you do is watch YouTube videos? It's not what you get out of a church but what you put into it. If you are just a self serving leech just wanting to take from other committed hard working ministries and put nothing back then it is no wonder you find church boring! Any pew sitting drone would!

Honestly, my alcoholism makes it difficult for me to have normal relationships with my own wife and children. I'm trying to get better.

 

[stovebolts]

Honestly, my alcoholism makes it difficult for me to have normal relationships with my own wife and children. I'm trying to get better.

I can understand that. Alcoholism hurts those closest to the alcoholic the most. Nobody likes to see the one they love checked out with a bottle.

I think there might be a chance you are afraid for people to get to know you if you go to church. You know you shouldn't be drinking and when people find out, I'm sure you feel some sense of shame.

 

[EvolvingChristian]

I can understand that. Alcoholism hurts those closest to the alcoholic the most. Nobody likes to see the one they love checked out with a bottle.

I think there might be a chance you are afraid for people to get to know you if you go to church. You know you shouldn't be drinking and when people find out, I'm sure you feel some sense of shame.

Abusing alcohol, like all sins, separates us from God as well as from our brothers and sisters. I have to change or it will kill me.

 

[stovebolts]

Abusing alcohol, like all sins, separates us from God as well as from our brothers and sisters. I have to change or it will kill me.

My brother was an addict. A few months before he died he was talking with our mom. This is what he said.
'Mom, I'm either going to end up in prison the rest of my life, or I'm going to die'.

He knew the path he was on and didn't change course. He died several months later. I cannot put into words the pain his death caused our family. I was with Mom, and having buried two of my own children, I understand her anguish. Every year she posts on facebook his birthday and his day of death.

I have another brother who is a severe alcoholic and his goal is to kill himself by drinking. He has said so without hesitation. He is racing to the grave, yet says he "loves Mom'. No, he doesn't love Mom. If he loved Mom he would obey her and stop drinking himself to death. If he loved Mom he wouldn't put her through the pain of going to her son's funeral.

Mom has cancer and she only has a few months to live. I've never prayed for her healing. What I pray for is she goes before any of her children go. She doesn't need to experience that pain again.

Jesus came as a servant. It wasn't about "Jesus", it was about us. Your drinking has to stop being about you. It's not just your "problem". Your hurting those around you and it's time you stopped hurting them. It's time that you put them before yourself. It's time you be like Jesus and serve them because every time you go to that bottle, your simply being selfish and serving yourself. And that's not love.

 

[EvolvingChristian]

...every time you go to that bottle, your simply being selfish and serving yourself. And that's not love.

I know.

 

[stovebolts]

I know.

Do you want to be made well?