Thank you for clarifying this. That's all I needed to post was my question to you.
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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Is obeying the Lord and His Commandments required for salvation?
- Thread starter Fastfredy0
- Start date
That's an interesting verse. It brings to light an issue that I've been hesitant to delve into which is how God used the
words "man", "men" in the Bible. To do so now would be off topic and require a lot of explanation and discussion, which discussion I'm sure, would generate a lot disagreement, so I'll pass on it for the time being but it is tempting.
Anyway, the KJV says "the measure", not "a measure"; that is an ability to measure faith or faithfulness-- not the receipt of a quantity of something. I believe the Greek supports this interpretation. In other words, the "man" in the verse have been given an ability to measure faith(fulness).
[Rom 12:3 KJV]
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
metron
- measure, an instrument for measuring
- a vessel for receiving and determining the quantity of things, whether dry or liquid
- a graduated staff for measuring, a measuring rod
- proverbially, the rule or standard of judgment
- determined extent, portion measured off, measure or limit
- the required measure, the due, fit, measure
No problem, happy to clarify - wouldn't want to leave anyone with the wrong impression of my beliefs
Apparently you have never been present at a human birth. There is plenty of "water" that accompanies the process.
When Jesus was talking to Nicodemus... "Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter his mother’s womb and be born a second time, can he?” Jesus answered, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit." John 3:4-6 Clearly Jesus is talking about the natural human birth, not baptism.
Acts 2:37-39, "Now when they heard this, they were acutely distressed and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “What should we do, brothers?” Peter said to them, “Repent, and each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children, and for all who are far away, as many as the Lord our God will call to himself.” Why do you think this refers to water baptism? Where else in Scripture does it say that water baptism gives people the gift of the Holy Spirit?
“I baptize you with water, for repentance, but the one coming after me is more powerful than I am—I am not worthy to carry his sandals! He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." Matthew 3:11 Here it clearly states that there is a significant difference between the two baptisms: (natural) water baptism is to demonstrate repentance only. The second baptism -- by the Holy Spirit -- is a supernatural experience.
Mark 1:4-8, " In the wilderness John the baptizer began preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. People from the whole Judean countryside and all of Jerusalem were going out to him, and he was baptizing them in the Jordan River as they confessed their sins. John wore a garment made of camel’s hair with a leather belt around his waist, and he ate locusts and wild honey. He proclaimed, “One more powerful than I am is coming after me; I am not worthy to bend down and untie the strap of his sandals. I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”
John 1:33, "And I did not recognize him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘The one on whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining—this is the one who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ "
Clearly there are two separate, distinct baptisms: water baptism which symbolically washes away one's sins and the second (and more important) one by which one receives the Holy Spirit. People can be baptized in/with water (as were those who came to John the Baptist) but that does nothing for their salvation. Only when one is baptized by/in the Holy Spirit is one saved.
Do you think that Jesus wasn't "saved" before He was baptized in water?
We are good I was just a little confused at first.
God speaks to us in many ways like the burning bush, an ass, through angels and through His Holy Spirit. Christ never spoke anything that God did not give Him to speak and it is the same with all of us as we can not go above that of what God already spoke or take away from what He spoke.
I never said anything about literal water baptism in my post #618. If you compare John 3:5 with 1 John 5:5-8 water means word as in the word being the living water (John 4:9-15) as in the Father, the word (living water Jesus) and the Holy Spirit. The three that bear witness is Holy Spirit, Gods living word, and the blood of Jesus who made atonement for sin that we can be reconciled back to the Father.
There are around 1526 instances of living water in the Bible. Here are some verses on living water being the word. John 4:4-26; 7:37-39; 12:44-50; Ephesians 5:26; 1 John 5:5-8; Jeremiah 17:13; Zechariah 14:8, 9; Rev 21:6-8; Ezekiel 47:22
The word water in John 3:5 means living water being the word of God so please do not put words in others mouths that they did not speak.
There are five requirements to Salvation
1. Confession - Acts 2:21; Romans 10:9, 10
2. Repentance - Mark 1:14, 15
3. Faith - John 3:14-18
4. Regeneration - John 3:3-8
5. Holy Scripture - 2 Timothy 3:15
Christian Baptism
1. Commanded by Christ - Matthew 28:19, 20; Mark 16:15, 16
2. Commanded by Peter - Acts 10:44-48
3. Commanded by Christian ministers - Acts 2:1, 41
Places of Baptism
1. Jordan - Matthew 3:13-16; Mark 1:5-10
2. Jerusalem - Acts 2:5, 41 (actually read the whole chapter)
3. Samaria - Acts 8:14-17
4. A house - Acts 10:44-48
5. A jail - Acts 16:25-33
Characteristics of Baptism
1. By water - Acts 10:47
2. Only one - Ephesians 4:5
3. Necessary - Acts 2:38, 41
4. Source of power - Acts 1:5, 8
5. Follows faith - Acts 18:8
Symbolism of Baptism
1. Forecast in prophecy - Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:16-21
2. Prefigured in types- 1 Corinthians 10:2; 1 Peter 3:20, 21
3. Visualized by the Spirit's descent - Acts 2:3, 4, 41; Acts 10:44-48
4. Expressive of Spiritual unity - 1 Corinthians 12:13; Galatians 3:27, 28
5. Figurative of regeneration - John 3:3, 5, 6; Romans 6:3, 4, 11
6. Illustrative of cleansing - Acts 22:16; Titus 3:5
Fastfredy0
2024 Supporter
Seeing the Christ is God, it would be difficult for him to not speak for himself.
I am not going to discuss this with you any further. You can attach all kinds of meanings and quote Scripture out of context to prove any kind of doctrine but that has no bearing on what the Bible says in context.
BTW, "living water" is mentioned a grand total of five times, three in the Gospel of John. "Water" is mentioned 617 times, more than 120 times more often.
The difference is between the two is clear in John 4:13-14, " Jesus replied, “Everyone who drinks some of this water will be thirsty again. But whoever drinks some of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again, but the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up to eternal life.”
Again, I'm done with this discussion about water. I believe what the Bible clearly says.
In Mat. 5:20, Jesus says that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of God. We must understand that in our own strength, we are unable to keep the commandments of God. It is the grace of God that enables us to keep the commandments. John 1:17 says that the law was given through Moses, but grace and Truth came through Jesus Christ. God has given us his grace to live by the Truth.
Great post! Thanks.
We agree that His disciples were born again, regenerated.
Which includes Judas.
Does this mean the rest of mankind can not be saved, because as you say, they are blind and deaf?
IOW, Who are you saying “them” refers to
And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”
He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. Matthew 13:10-13
- Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
Who does “them” refer here in verse 13, everyone else in the world or those in Israel that He spoke to in parables?
JLB
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Fastfredy0
2024 Supporter
- John 17:12 While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and protected them, and not one of them was lost except the son of destruction, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.
- John 3:18 I am not speaking of all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but [this has happened] in order that the Scripture may be fulfilled: ‘He who eats My bread has raised up his heel against Me [as My enemy].’
- John 6:70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve [disciples]? And yet one of you is a devil (ally of Satan).”
- Matthew 26:24 “The Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good 1for that man if he had not been born.”
Can't be saved? No, I didn't mean that. Those God has chosen to be saved will become saved/born again but at a
time of His choosing. Until then (if there is a then), they remain blind and deaf spiritually speaking. As a result of being born again, they become Christ's disciples too and gain the ability to spiritually see and hear.
Mat. 13:14 says that the prophecy of Isaiah came true in the lives of the certain Pharisees because they were dull of hearing. Therefore, it is not that the gospel is not given for everyone to hear, but that certain people are judged from understanding the Word of God because they do not want to repent of their sins as they are living a self-righteous life. But whoever repents and comes to Jesus, the gospel will not be hidden from them.
Walpole
Member
The Church is an extension of the Incarnation. It is the means by which the mission of Christ continues. It is the body of Christ continuing in time and thus it is a divine institution. If the Church is not a divine institution, then it is nothing more than a religious Elks Club.
crossnote
Member
Regarding the issue of whether a person has a direct relationship with God, I would say it walks dangerously close to denying the Holy Trinity, namely the third Person of the Trinity, Who dwells in each born again believer, convicting of sin and enlightening their understanding of the Person and Work of Jesus Christ...forever pointing us to Christ Jesus and Him ALONE.
IMHO the question you've asked goes to the very heart of the Gospel. I agree that the Gospel has been published and in a physical sense is available to everyone to hear, but, unless a person becomes born again, if they even care, they are unable to translate it into spiritual understanding nor do they believe there is any spiritual understanding they're lacking - they're oblivious to it or they don't consider the possibility that they're missing it - why repent of a sin you don't know of, or believe doesn't exist? Depending upon your perception/definition of sin, repentance of it can cover a lot of ground and take many different forms so this may not be the best forum to go into it in detail.
Anyway, I believe that before becoming saved/born again, we are all as evil as the Pharisees you mentioned but maybe in different ways. No one who has become saved is in the slightest bit less sinful or better than those who will not be saved - for an example of a sinful person look at Saul/ Paul - he describes himself as the chief sinner yet he became saved by God. So, if we believe that salvation is based upon anything we may do to achieve it to include our repentance, we've missed it. What I'm taking the long way around trying to say is that Jesus Christ alone is the Savior. He does the saving, we do not. What that translates to is, the harder we work in any way to justify ourselves to be saved, the further away we get from it. God must fully initiate and complete that action within us. if and when that happens, all of the attributes described by the Bible associated to a Christian (to include repentance), will be given to us. We will do those things because we will desire to do them from the heart not because we have to.
Hope I answered your question in an intelligible manner and didn't drone on too long. If I've misunderstood or it needs clarification, please let me know - thanks
[1Ti 1:15 KJV] 15 This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Walpole
Member
Intercessor: One who intercedes
Intercede: To act or interpose in behalf of someone in difficulty or trouble, as by pleading or petition
The Scriptures are full the prayers of intercession of the saints. For example, we have David in the Psalms...
"Praise the Lord, all his heavenly hosts, you his servants who do his will." (Psalm 103:21)
"Praise the Lord. Praise the Lord from the heavens; praise him in the heights above. Praise him, all his angels; praise him, all his heavenly hosts." (Psalm 148:1-2)
We also have St. John's example in Revelation...
"And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints." (Rev. 5:8, KJV)
David invokes those in heaven. St. John explicitly describes God receiving prayers from someone other than the primary petitioner in Rev. 5:8. This makes the person presenting and taking the prayers of the primary petitioner to God - by definition - an intercessor.
crossnote
Member
Do you believe the Church can go apostate, like proclaiming environmental issues rather than proclaiming the Gospel?