A discussion on TOTAL DEPRAVITY

[jasonc]

Are you suggesting they have direct revelation from God of Himself?

If we were to base God on that .

Well I guess being a Good heathen is ok .so long as we are good.

Problem is that is subjective .

 

[JLB]

In short we must be robots .

If you want to label followers of Jesus Christ as robots, that is on you.

I cant imagine why any Christian would say such a thing.



JLB

 

[jasonc]

If you want to label followers of Jesus Christ as robots, that is on you.

I cant imagine why any Christian would say such a thing.



JLB

You literally say that no christian identifies by the type of church they go to .

Look .Im way more into other then white pentacostals.

African music In church ,creole and Jamaican ?

Yup .loud .

Country slow and quiet pentacostals know then too

Now then would said Okeechobee type ,non Hispanic type find the creole type relatable ? No .he couldn't .

These are just worship and not theological yet that I can present too .

While rare ,I know of pentacostals who won't allow female pastors .won't ordain them .

I also already debates you on the fact praying is common in church loudly and the Spirit.

They in my experience appeared chaotic at times but we're controlled without any or saying anything .

I don't agree with it but it exists .

I mentioned robots to point out that no one will ever see it the same and God let's it .

 

[jasonc]

I should add .no christian should indentify with a nation .

Im not a stickler on that but I personally know persons who won't recite the pledge or own a flag .and I can't fully disagree with why .

No American flag or any nation is in heaven .

A local church does these historical things around Christmas based on factual events .

Christmas 1914 and armistice day was the hardest .

I regretted ever serving for some time when I saw how two families had sons who were cousins and they killed each other in war .

Both believers and siding with Germany and Brittain .

All over political ambitions of the crown .while Germany was wrong ,the Brittons and her alliance with Serbia who was also part of the problem with the murder if the archduke. Nations fighting for power and land .

I'm hardly anti patriotic but when I delve into history of vets I lay wreaths at and it's the Seminole wars I have to wonder about things .this has happened on other wars .America or any nation isn't without reproach .

 

[atpollard]

Problem is that is subjective .

"Sure I killed a bunch of people ... but I never ate them!"

 

[GodsGrace]

Otherwise man is dead to God, no life, no spiritual activity. See hearing is a Spiritual hearing, believing is a spiritual activity.

I listed 5 verses that show God's grace can be resisted.
If it can be resisted then the I in TULIP is incorrect.

Instead of posting your opinion, why don't you please respond to my verses as I have done?

Man is spiritually dead.
But WHERE in the NT does it state that man is SO DEAD that He cannot respond to God?
All the following verses state that man IS ABLE to respond to God.

Here they are again:

John 7:17
.Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God

Matthew 23:37
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!


Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,


Revelation 22:17
The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.


Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

 

[GodsGrace]

I have several threads here on Salvation and have explained my views with scripture.

Every thread is its own thread.
Posters cannot go back and read all kinds of different threads to see what you believe.
I've explained my position hundreds of times in these years.

PLEASE explain what I've asked.

YOU stated that even though God determines everything...
what we do is still be free will.

I'd like to have a logical explanation of this statement.
God is a logical being...thus we like logic.
(He did indeed make us in His image).

How can a choice I make be free...
IF God predestinated it?

Please explain.

 

[JLB]

You literally say that no christian identifies by the type of church they go to .

Jason, please stop making things up about what I said.


I simply said that denominations are not biblical, they are just man made devices that divide us.

And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?
1 Corinthians 3:1-3



JLB

 

[jasonc]

Jason, please stop making things up about what I said.


I simply said that denominations are not biblical, they are just man made devices that divide us.

And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?
1 Corinthians 3:1-3



JLB

Man made ?
So people won't decide In your church to simply avoid your class on eschatology?

Your are post trib pre mil.

I guarantee you that no one agrees and while that isn't a reason to split .but sometimes grey areas are fences and my church says it but often there are fences .

You said no divisions .

Until the 19th century there was no post or mid trib .

Charles spurgeon addressed the idea of modern futurism with it's three version coming from the Plymouth brethren as something new .

I know pastors who have said I couldn't teach amil .

It will swing the other way .

I don't like it but I don't see it as a Heresy as you do.
No division implies no one disagrees on anything .

I can fellowship with those who cant see it my way .many can't .

 

[GodsGrace]

Quote the part of the WCF or Institutes that teaches “God sends people to hell for no reason.”
I know that the Baptist Faith and Message and Heidelberg Confession say no such thing and I never read anything like that in my Bible, so I don’t believe that.

Well, shoosh atpollard,
OF COURSE you never read it in your bible !!
That's because God sending people to hell FOR NO REASON is NOT BIBLICAL.

So I have to post again?
AGAIN?

No problem.
Here is what you've asked for.
I'll post BOTH. It's rather easy to do.

Quote the part of the WCF or Institutes that teaches “God sends people to hell for no reason.”

The Institutes of the Christian Religion
John Calvin
Book 3
Chapter 21
Paragraph 1

But if it is plainly owing to the mere pleasure of God that salvation is spontaneously offered to some, while others have no access to it, great and difficult questions immediately arise, questions which are inexplicable, when just views are not entertained concerning election and predestination. To many this seems a perplexing subject, because they deem it most incongruous that of the great body of mankind some should be predestinated to salvation, and others to destruction. How ceaselessly they entangle themselves will appear as we proceed. We may add, that in the very obscurity which deters them, we may see not only the utility of this doctrine, but also its most pleasant fruits. We shall never feel persuaded as we ought that our salvation flows from the free mercy of God as its fountain, until we are made acquainted with his eternal election, the grace of God being illustrated by the contrast--viz. that he does not adopt all promiscuously to the hope of salvation, but gives to some what he denies to others.

And here I thought that God was IMPARTIAL!
As the NT teaches:

Acts 10:34-35
So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.
The above even explains HOW TO BE SAVED...by fearing and doing what is right.

The Institutes
John Calvin
Book 3
Chapter 21
Paragraph 5

. By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.
Yes, it would be nice if you could show WHERE in the NT it states that God predestines some to eternal life and some to damnation, by decree. I cannot find any such verse.

]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]

The WCF
Chapter II
Paragraph 2

..manifesting his own glory in, by, unto, and upon them: he is the alone fountain of all being, of whom, through whom, and to whom, are all things; and hath most sovereign dominion over them, to do by them, for them, or upon them, whatsoever himself pleaseth.
The above states that God will do whatever He pleases to everyone.
This means that whatever happens to us, whatever, is put upon us by God.
Any evil thing, any sin. The reformed teach that God is sovereign, and THIS is what sovereignty means to them.

The WCF
Chapter III
Paragraph 7

VII. The rest of mankind, God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extendeth or withholdeth mercy as he pleaseth, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice.

Yes, God just abandoned the rest of mankind...those that He did not elect, as He pleased due to His "mercy" and His sovereign power OVER HIS CREATURES...doesn't sound like God loves His creation much.
And this to His glorious justice...what justice?

Okay, I did my part,
now you show me WHERE in the NT the above 4 statements are shown to be true from biblical sources.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, you started a tread on THE MASS and it benefits. The MASS is idiol worship, yet you talk about the benefits of it. Interesting juxtaposition.




Looks like a duck and walks like a duck and quack like a duck ...usually it is a duck.
Come clean.... do you believe the wine and bread of the mass are actually Christ's body and blood?
Do you pray to Mary and think she is sinless?
Do you go to the priest and he forgives you?
Do you believe in purgatory?

Inquiring minds want to know. I assume you are proud of your beliefs. If so, what are they?


Notice the WE in "WE should be kneeling" indicating your inclusion in worshiping the actual BLOOD AND BODY of Christ. We protestants call it idol worship.

When I'm at Mass I KNEEL when necessary.
As to the rest,
I don't have to explain myself to you.

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering has integrity issues ... proof below.

OK, so I decided to trace Wonderings false accusation that I misrepresented her. Here the proof she accused me falsely


Here Atpollard asks Wondering if Muslims can be saved
Feb 17th, Post #273 Objections to God's Sovereignty Answered..........



Here Wondering answers that Muslims can be saved
Feb 17th, Post #284 Objections to God's Sovereignty Answered..........


Here I say Wondering said Muslims can be saved (see above post)
Post #167 A discussion on TOTAL DEPRAVITY


Here Wondering bares false witness, accusing me of misrepresenting her
Post #168 A discussion on TOTAL DEPRAVITY



Here I am disciplined for Wonderings false witness (she bares false witness and goes to Ambassador with a false accusation)
Post #174 A discussion on TOTAL DEPRAVITY


OK, I provided the posts. This proves Wondering comes up short when it comes to truth. I believe I am owed an apology. I don't expect one. Probably get the boot for telling the truth. So be it.

FYI: Free

Accusing me of lying...
AGAIN.

You're certainly not an honorable man fredy.
Far from it.

Check out post no. 171
and to think it was posted TO YOU.
Guess you missed it.

 

[jasonc]

Denominations are not of God.


You are either a follower of Jesus Christ because you believe and practice (obey) His teaching or you don’t have God.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9



Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
1 Timothy 4:1




JLB

Funny your aren't Catholic .

Which means universal .the bible you use is from a division .needful but it's this I address.while it is petty .you forget you use the Anglican kjv .that church is originally not pentacostal at all .

It's confusing as you have branches of it .the reformed puritans and quakers .

The wcf has a political backdrop to what was going on and the pea soup while ridiculous is. There .they often will work together .
My church started by a pca pastor and now is arp .my pastor went to what is now pca but was arp under d.j.kennedy ,it was pca before .we have borrowed pca pastors .

I think it's silly but plenty of pentacostals do this

Church of God Cleveland Tennessee
Aog.
United pentacostal international ( Spanish only ) break off from aog as it was their Spanish outreach .

Church of God In Christ .

While these are silly .yet I wonder if some are actually God led to form but I also know that they are used by God .

Unity in doctrines that are not heresy won't happen this side .

Reformed Baptists use and the London Baptist confession versus the Presbyterian wcf and the latter baptizes babies.the former wont.

I personally think this all silly but again you can't say it's all demonic and well then argue for days and years here and not see you do it here too .

I'm guilty myself .

The problem of division is that we'll we argue this must me right and won't budge on that and major in some minor .

You say you don't like division but then post that unity most be no division and by logic all agree on it all .

You can't see that ?

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus didn't come to show people how to get saved, that's not scriptural, He came to save people from their sins

Matt 1:21
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
1 Tim 1:15
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Scripture know nothing of a jesus who came to show people how to get saved. Man needs saving because he is lost and dead to God.

You know Brightfame52
I gave you a nice list of verses.
You're answering me with more verses.

Why don't you reply to mine first?
Why play verse ping pong instead of having a serious conversation?

Here they are again.... Please reply as to your understanding of each verse.
As I've done MANY times.
Thanks.

*******************************************************************************

Jesus came to let us know God's ways.
Jesus came to let us know God's thoughts.

Some of them anyway - the ones necessary to know so WE COULD GET SAVED.

Romans 10:9
Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

WHERE does it state that those that confess ARE ALREADY SAVED?

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
This tells us HOW we are saved.
And even gives the ORDO SALUTIS.
Grace saves us.
Through faith.
Faith comes first and then salvation.


Acts 2:38
And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”


Did Paul say to sit around and wait for God to CALL the jailor?
No. He told him to BELIEVE IN THE LORD and he would be saved.

It's very clear that the jailor was not already saved but wanted to know HOW TO BECOME SAVED.

Again, we have the ORDO SALUTIS:
BELIEVE IN JESUS
BE SAVED


Matthew 7:21 Jesus Said
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. "


Do we want to believe Jesus?
Not everyone will enter the Kingdom of Heave,
BUT THE ONE WHO DOES THE WILL OF THE FATHER.

How do you explain that one away?

BTW, yeah, no one ever answers to my verses,
it would be nice if everyone did.
I know it's not easy.

 

[GodsGrace]

Your verses can and have been answered. It looks like you do not like when that happens.
When you get answered you protest we are being personal???
If we suggest your answers indicate a wrong view, or a lack of understanding on your part, you kind of threaten us saying TOS violation is happening? you cannot have it both ways, can you?

You're making a serious accusation.
I'm just going to ignore you.

 

[GodsGrace]

... and BOTH are the gift of God. The God who "... will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion. So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy." [NKJV]

I was alluding to the Ordo Salutis.

It is not of him who wills
Romans 9:16 just means that we are not saved by works.

We are saved by the grace of God.
Those WHO WISH TO BE SAVED,
are saved by the grace of God.

Acts 16:31

 

[GodsGrace]

I moved on to Unconditional Election in a new topic (as you suggested).
(After 100 posts it is unlikely that anything new remains unsaid on a subject.)

You didn't tag me in!
I'll look for it.

 

[GodsGrace]

Are you suggesting they have direct revelation from God of Himself?

Of course.
Didn't you ever read Romans 1:19....?

Romans 1:19-20
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

or

Romans 2:6-11
6He will judge everyone according to what they have done.
7He will give eternal life to those who keep on doing good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers.
8But he will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for themselves, who refuse to obey the truth and instead live lives of wickedness.
9There will be trouble and calamity for everyone who keeps on doing what is evil—for the Jew first and also for the Gentile.a
10But there will be glory and honor and peace from God for all who do good—for the Jew first and also for the Gentile.
11For God does not show favoritism.
Romans 9:12-16
12When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God’s written law. And the Jews, who do have God’s law, will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it.
13For merely listening to the law doesn’t make us right with God. It is obeying the law that makes us right in his sight.
14Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it.
15They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right.
16And this is the message I proclaim—that the day is coming when God, through Christ Jesus, will judge everyone’s secret life.

 

[brightfame52]

I listed 5 verses that show God's grace can be resisted.
If it can be resisted then the I in TULIP is incorrect.

Instead of posting your opinion, why don't you please respond to my verses as I have done?

Man is spiritually dead.
But WHERE in the NT does it state that man is SO DEAD that He cannot respond to God?
All the following verses state that man IS ABLE to respond to God.

Here they are again:

John 7:17
.Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God

Matthew 23:37
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!


Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,


Revelation 22:17
The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.


Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Man naturally is dead in sin, alienated from the Life of God, hence no Spiritual activity without Spiritual life.

 

[GodsGrace]

Man naturally is dead in sin, alienated from the Life of God, hence no Spiritual activity without Spiritual life.

Well, that's YOUR opinion.

Could you back it up with some scripture?