A discussion on TOTAL DEPRAVITY

[jasonc]

I haven't studied Calvin. I have too many other things needing my attention. As I go to a reformed church, we recite from the WCF nearly every Sunday and I hear the teaching from the pulpit.


I have discussed but you don't like my answer. So, yes according to the reformed, we evangelize because Christ told us to; because we are God's hands and feet. Everyone that is to be saved will only be saved by hearing the gospel. That they believe God chooses who will be saved is irrelevant to that fact. Remember, that is the same as saying God chooses who will believe the gospel, and so be saved. But the gospel has to exist in the first place.


All the OT is still for us. Jesus most certainly has not shown us exhaustively the mind of God.

1Co 2:11 For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. (ESV)


Of course. Same God, remember?


Actually, I don't see how that would disagree with their teaching. I think it might be hard to sustain the argument that anyone actually wants to go to hell. Perhaps a relatively few do, but many simply don't believe hell even exists. These people sure thought they were going to heaven and don't want to go to hell:

Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ (ESV)


Absolutely, unequivocally the same God, the same gospel, and the need for Jesus. I find their theology far more robust and their focus on Jesus much greater than anything I ever heard in Pentecostal/charasmatic circles, but that probably goes without saying.


Soteriology is important but whether or not God chooses is not important to me. Everyone who gets saved, gets saved from hearing the gospel, which is why Jesus commanded his disciples to go make more disciples.


If salvation can actually be lost. If a person is sure they are saved, then why should they then doubt their salvation just because it is taught that God chose them to be saved? That should rather make a person that much more grateful to God.


Always the need to evangelize since no one is saved apart from hearing the gospel, and it's being obedient to the command of Christ. The gospel is still central and the death of Christ necessary.


I'm just saying that for me, since God knows and has always known who will be saved, it doesn't matter whether or not it's because he has chosen them. Jesus said to make disciples, so all Christians need to follow that command, since all who are to believe still need to hear the gospel.


Buona notte!

Pm me which Presbyterian church that is as most use the wcf.i would be surprised if it was an arp church

 

[jasonc]

One of the main reasons I debate is to continually learn to articulate my positions better. I've been doing this a long time, so I've had a lot of practice, yet I still fail at times. I already go to a church on the Dark Side, I just don't agree with everything they teach and choose to hold some things in tension.


Of course, that just highlights the biases we all bring to the table. We can never be completely objective, as much as we like to think we can.

The reformed aren't a bad bunch .I know .I have been going to one church for three years

 

[brightfame52]

Why must we be born again before being able to believe?
Why can't it be that, yes, we need some kind of grace to be able to believe God.
The question becomes, is this grace given to everyone? IOW, does God love everyone or not?
And can we respond to this grace?
Or is God's grace IRRISISTABLE?

The NT teaches that it is RESISTABLE:

John 7:17
.Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God

Matthew 23:37
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!
Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,
Revelation 22:17
The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Otherwise man is dead to God, no life, no spiritual activity. See hearing is a Spiritual hearing, believing is a spiritual activity.

 

[brightfame52]

But, BF, if you can't explain how,,,
what are we to believe?

God is not a God of confusion, He DESIRES that we know Him and love Him.
I need verses?

If God DETERMINES that I do something....
I am NOT doing it willingly.

At least admit what calvinism teaches....don't beat around the bush.

I have several threads here on Salvation and have explained my views with scripture.

 

[atpollard]

Except it's reformed theology that teaches that God sends people to hell for no reason.

Quote the part of the WCF or Institutes that teaches “God sends people to hell for no reason.”
I know that the Baptist Faith and Message and Heidelberg Confession say no such thing and I never read anything like that in my Bible, so I don’t believe that.

 

[jasonc]

Quote the part of the WCF or Institutes that teaches “God sends people to hell for no reason.”
I know that the Baptist Faith and Message and Heidelberg Confession say no such thing and I never read anything like that in my Bible, so I don’t believe that.

They don't .my elders ,one taught by r.c sproul says those that are in hell lock the gate and prevent God from ever going there.

 

[atpollard]

They don't .my elders ,one taught by r.c sproul says those that are in hell lock the gate and prevent God from ever going there.

Rhetorically clever, but I suspect that it may not be theologically accurate.
(Sinners may want to lock God out, but I don’t think that any door is locked to God.)

 

[jasonc]

Rhetorically clever, but I suspect that it may not be theologically accurate.
(Sinners may want to lock God out, but I don’t think that any door is locked to God.)

Of course not .it was said to show that sinners who go there simply want to .

God forces no one to serve Him .he does work on the heart to gain repentance,in their view God plays long game and denies our desires and breaks our spirit by allowing us to self destruct and knows how to change us

 

[Fastfredy0]

You keep telling me I'm Catholic, like as if you know anything about me,
I think it's funny.

Well, you started a tread on THE MASS and it benefits. The MASS is idiol worship, yet you talk about the benefits of it. Interesting juxtaposition.

The Mass can be beneficial in 4 ways:

1. Adoration: We recognize that God is our Father, Creator and LORD and that He has always loved us.
2. Thankfulness: Eucharist means thankfulness. We thank God for everything because everything is a gift from Him.
3. Reparation: Sins detach us from God. We ask God to forgive our every sinful action and give us the mercy that only Jesus can give.
4. Impetration: We have much need...both physically and spiritually. We give our requests to God with forceful prayer and together with Jesus' offer of salvation. God give us grace that we need, according to our needs.

The Mass is really a beautiful experience.
I hope the above helps and that you enjoy it.
As you understand more and more what is taking place,
I think you'll enjoy it more and more.

Looks like a duck and walks like a duck and quack like a duck ...usually it is a duck.
Come clean.... do you believe the wine and bread of the mass are actually Christ's body and blood?
Do you pray to Mary and think she is sinless?
Do you go to the priest and he forgives you?
Do you believe in purgatory?

Inquiring minds want to know. I assume you are proud of your beliefs. If so, what are they?

The holiest moment of the Mass:
The priest consecrates the host and it become the body and blood of Jesus.
THIS IS MY BODY....THIS IS MY BLOOD.... (we should be kneeling).

Notice the WE in "WE should be kneeling" indicating your inclusion in worshiping the actual BLOOD AND BODY of Christ. We protestants call it idol worship.

 

[Fastfredy0]

LOL
Except it's reformed theology that teaches that God sends people to hell for no reason.

How can a person who claims to have studied Reformed theology for so long get so many things wrong. I have some theories but none are complimentary.
Aside: Reformed theology sends people to hell for guilt of sin. Like, this is 6 year old theology. Gee ...
Your claim are beyond ridiculous. They're sad.

What good is stating verses for persons that don't understand them?

Yet we do it for you.

 

[Fastfredy0]

I just don't agree with everything they teach and choose to hold some things in tension.

Always good to keep and open mind like the Berean's. Trust by verify (I guess Reagan was a Berean)

Of course, that just highlights the biases we all bring to the table. We can never be completely objective, as much as we like to think we can.

Definitely.
Inductive reasoning starts with particular facts and moves toward a general truth to interpret particular facts. Deductive reasoning uses a general truth to interpret particular facts.

No one ever comes to the Bible and simply begins by inductively studying a particular passage. Inductive Bible study leaders may give the impression that they are setting aside their prejudices and simply reading Scripture, but this is not really the case. Baptists tend to read the Bible as if it teaches adult-only baptism, non-charismatics as if it teaches that there is no longer an office of prophet, and Calvinists as if it teaches unconditional election. We all read expecting to find specific things.

In other words, we never see Scripture through completely fresh, unprejudiced eyes. We read particular passages in the light of what we already know ---or think we know--- of Scripture's general teaching. So we both deduce how to interpret ... yahda, yahda, yahda ..... Author Unknown

 

[Fastfredy0]

Quote the part of the WCF or Institutes that teaches “God sends people to hell for no reason.”
I know that the Baptist Faith and Message and Heidelberg Confession say no such thing and I never read anything like that in my Bible, so I don’t believe that.

She says she provides quotes from the WCF and Calvin. Another untruth. *sigh*

 

[Fastfredy0]

wondering has integrity issues ... proof below.

OK, so I decided to trace Wonderings false accusation that I misrepresented her. Here the proof she accused me falsely


Here Atpollard asks Wondering if Muslims can be saved
Feb 17th, Post #273 Objections to God's Sovereignty Answered..........

1. There are Muslims living in the mountains of Western China as an oppressed people group ... Is their opportunity to hear and believe the same as someone living in North America today?

Here Wondering answers that Muslims can be saved
Feb 17th, Post #284 Objections to God's Sovereignty Answered..........

1. Muslims. Right. Well, if a person is a Muslim and he loves God and worships Him, he is most probably saved.
You see A, there's only One God. If a person is worshipping the correct God (not Buddha). then he is also worshipping Jesus because Jesus is God. God is our savior.

Here I say Wondering said Muslims can be saved (see above post)
Post #167 A discussion on TOTAL DEPRAVITY

@wondering just the other day said Muslim's can be saved without knowing Christ.

Here Wondering bares false witness, accusing me of misrepresenting her
Post #168 A discussion on TOTAL DEPRAVITY

You must either properly represent what I state and believe,
or you should keep yourself quiet and stop misrepresenting what people believe.

Here I am disciplined for Wonderings false witness (she bares false witness and goes to Ambassador with a false accusation)
Post #174 A discussion on TOTAL DEPRAVITY


OK, I provided the posts. This proves Wondering comes up short when it comes to truth. I believe I am owed an apology. I don't expect one. Probably get the boot for telling the truth. So be it.

FYI: Free

 

[Iconoclast]

Quote the part of the WCF or Institutes that teaches “God sends people to hell for no reason.”
I know that the Baptist Faith and Message and Heidelberg Confession say no such thing and I never read anything like that in my Bible, so I don’t believe that.

When people turn from truth they only have error left to declare. We see unstable accusations with no scripture support once again. Made up Pollyanna ideas are offered in the place of scripture.

 

[Iconoclast]

wondering has integrity issues ... proof below.

OK, so I decided to trace Wonderings false accusation that I misrepresented her. Here the proof she accused me falsely


Here Atpollard asks Wondering if Muslims can be saved
Feb 17th, Post #273 Objections to God's Sovereignty Answered..........



Here Wondering answers that Muslims can be saved
Feb 17th, Post #284 Objections to God's Sovereignty Answered..........


Here I say Wondering said Muslims can be saved (see above post)
Post #167 A discussion on TOTAL DEPRAVITY


Here Wondering bares false witness, accusing me of misrepresenting her
Post #168 A discussion on TOTAL DEPRAVITY



Here I am disciplined for Wonderings false witness (she bares false witness and goes to Ambassador with a false accusation)
Post #174 A discussion on TOTAL DEPRAVITY


OK, I provided the posts. This proves Wondering comes up short when it comes to truth. I believe I am owed an apology. I don't expect one. Probably get the boot for telling the truth. So be it.

FYI: Free

While she seems like a nice person, the posts indicate a problem that she does not notice.
What you have posted is factual.

 

[JLB]

No such thing as hearing and believing without first being born again and having spiritual life.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10

• if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

If frames the passage in a condition.

The condition is …

• you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead

The result of meeting the condition is…

• you will be saved.

Paul then asks these questions in the contextual theme of verses
9 and 10.


How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? Romans 10:14


How can a person believe in Jesus and be saved by Him, if they have never heard of Him?


Your ”Christ-less” Gospel is not from God.






JLB

 

[JLB]

I NEVER said any one on any of these posts blaspheme God.
I said that reformed theology blasphemes God.
And why?

Their theology blasphemes God because it is a Christ-less Gospel that promotes the false idea that people are saved apart from believing in Jesus Christ.



JLB

 

[brightfame52]

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10

• if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

If frames the passage in a condition.

The condition is …

• you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead

The result of meeting the condition is…

• you will be saved.

Paul then asks these questions in the contextual theme of verses
9 and 10.


How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? Romans 10:14


How can a person believe in Jesus and be saved by Him, if they have never heard of Him?


Your ”Christ-less” Gospel is not from God.






JLB

Man cant perform spiritual acts of hearing, believing, confessing while spiritually dead.

 

[JLB]

The Presbyterians don't (at least the ones that refuse to ordain homosexual women as pastors). Nor does the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod [LCMS]. You have a "every other denomination" bias.

Reformed Denominations in Italy:

• The Waldensian Evangelical Church
• The Evangelical Reformed Baptist Churches in Italy
• The Presbyterian Church in Italy

Reformed Denominations in North America:
Presbyterians

• American Presbyterian Church (founded 1979)
• Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church (Scots-Irish Presbyterians)
• Bible Presbyterian Church (1937 from the OPC)
• Covenant Presbyterian Church
• Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church
• Covenanting Association of Reformed and Presbyterian Churches
• Cumberland Presbyterian Church
• Cumberland Presbyterian Church in America
• ECO: A Covenant Order of Evangelical Presbyterians
• Evangel Presbytery
• Evangelical Assembly of Presbyterian Churches in America
• Evangelical Presbyterian Church
• Faith Presbytery, Bible Presbyterian Church
• Free Church of Scotland - has about 9 congregations in North America
• Free Church of Scotland (Continuing) - has 7 congregations in North America
• Free Presbyterian Church of North America
• Korean-American Presbyterian Church
• Korean Evangelical Presbyterian Church in America
• Korean Presbyterian Church Abroad[22]
• Korean Presbyterian Church in America (Kosin)
• Orthodox Presbyterian Church
• Presbyterian Church in America
• Presbyterian Church in Canada
• Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.)
• Presbyterian Reformed Church (North America)
• Reformed Presbyterian Church General Assembly (1990 from the RPCUS)
• Reformed Presbyterian Church - Hanover Presbytery
• Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America (RPCNA, Scottish Covenanters)
• Upper Cumberland Presbyterian Church separated from the Cumberland Presbyterian Church
• Vanguard Presbytery

Continental Reformeds

• Alliance of Reformed Churches(founded 2021 out of the RCA)
• Calvin Synod (United Church of Christ)
• Canadian and American Reformed Churches (Dutch Reformed - Liberated)
• Christian Reformed Church in North America (Dutch Reformed - GKN)
• Free Reformed Churches in North America - (Dutch Reformed - CGKN)
• French Protestant (Huguenot) Church, Charleston, SC
• Heritage Netherlands Reformed Congregations
• Hungarian Reformed Church in America
• Kingdom Network (inaugurating September 9, 2021 out of the RCA)
• Lithuanian Evangelical Reformed Church in America
• Netherlands Reformed Congregations
• Protestant Reformed Churches in America (Dutch Reformed - GKN)
• Reformed Congregations in North America
• Reformed Church in the United States (German Reformed)
• Reformed Church in America
• Reformed Church of Quebec
• United Reformed Churches in North America (Dutch Reformed - GKN)

Congregational

• Congregational Christian Churches in Canada

Reformed Anglicans

• Anglican Mission in the Americas
• Reformed Anglican Church
• Reformed Episcopal Church

Reformed Baptist

• Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America
• Fellowship of Independent Reformed Evangelicals

Others

• Communion of Reformed Evangelical Churches
• Puritan Reformed Church
• Newfrontiers in the United States
• Sovereign Grace Churches (Credobaptist, charismatic)

Denominations are not of God.


You are either a follower of Jesus Christ because you believe and practice (obey) His teaching or you don’t have God.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9



Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
1 Timothy 4:1




JLB

 

[JLB]

Man cant perform spiritual acts of hearing, believing, confessing while spiritually dead.

They way we are born again, become spiritually alive, is by believing.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16





JLB