Defending the faith: A discussion of Catholic Doctrine

[Paul Timothy]

You said you have authority to study scripture and decide your own doctrine, make your own faith, that’s the point of the Bible alone, each man is his own arbiter of truth as opposed to the universal faith of Christ taught by his apostles

Please point out where I said anything of that nature.
I have no idea that you could get anything like that out of what I said.

The church has existed 2000 years the original apostles can’t live that ling so the must have successor’s like Mathias taking the place of Judas acts 1

An act of man and not God.
Done with good intentions but a human decision non the less.

Thought you accept the Bible alone? Now you want to add interpretation?

When did I say that?
You are adding your own bias onto my words(it would appear to me).
Please keep to what I actually say and if in doubt... ask me.
You want to know what I think, ask questions that will lead to understanding.
And as for interpretation... I have already pointed out that your version the texts you quote is not very correct.
Shall we try again... put forward a verse and your interpretation of that verse.
I don't think the two will match up... they may... but I have my doubts.

 

[donadams]

So I see you can't even keep the references straight... but I guess that happens to us all at one time or another.
So nothing in the verse you quoted says anything about power, authority nor mission.
Just that as Jesus was sent... the Disciples were sent.
Nothing there implies power, authority or mission... it is just a sending.
You are reading into the verse the things you wish to see.
We all do that from time to time.
Learn from our mistakes and we grow. Right?

We have to suffer from spell check
Jn 20:21
As the father sent me: (mode) so I send you. Same exact mode, christ was sent with mission, power, and authority, the apostles also the same, sent with the same mission, power, and authority

Examples Jesus has the ministry of reconciliation and the apostles have the ministry of reconciliation
2 cor 5:18-19

Jesus Light of the world: Jn 8:12 / apostles light of the world Matt 5:14
Hear: Matt 17:5 / Matt 18:17
Authority: Matt 28:17 / Jn 20:21
Forgive sins: Lk 5:20 / Jn 20:23
Truth: Jn 14:6 / 1 Tim 3:15

 

[RudolfRed]

You are not saved… no one is saved until the end. Matt 24:13
Mk 13:13

Yes it is by God’s grace merited in the sacrifice of Christ but applied to our souls in the sacraments

Faith yea but not “faith alone” and baptism and the sacraments are part of the faith we must believe

You are 100% Nuts. We are not saved, period, end of discussion, thru the Roman Catholic Cult system of Fake Sacraments.

We are saved thru grace alone, thru faith alone, in the once and for all time completed work of Christ, ( in bearing our sins upon the cross, in dying upon the cross as our substitute for our sins, being resurrected, and ascended in glory back to the right hand of God the father, after establishing the new covenant in his blood and flesh sacrifice alone, at Pentecost, where the apostles were finally sent to preach the new covenant in Christ Jesus alone, ) as per Eph 2:8-10, etc.., in which Peter plays no role which he deserves to be elevated above anyone else, as the great commision applies equally to all of the apostles,

With none greater than the others, as all being mere servants of God in the form of the Son, our Lord Jesus Christ. It is all about the Glory of God, in Christ Jesus, and not Peter as a Faked Pope, Nor In The Faked Sacraments Of A Fake Roman Catholic Mother Of All Harlots Lie, With None Of It's Lying Claims Actually Going Back To Peter as per Gal 2:8

And Our Endurance To The End, Is Our Endurance In And Thru Faith, And Not Thru The Fake Sacraments Of The Fake Roman Catholic Cult.

Our Endurance Thru Faith As Contrasted By The Fake Sacraments Of The Fake Roman Catholic Cult.

And Yes, Just As Satan Misquote Scripture Or The Words Of God, At Eden, And In Tempting Christ, etc.., etc.., etc.., He Still Does So Today Even Thru The Lying Roman Catholic Cult -

Which Will At Times State Actual Statements From The Scriptures To Pretend To Have A High Christology, While Really Adding To, Or Taking Away From, Or Substituting In Place Of, And thus Stealthily Poisoning The Truth - Because Anti-Christ Means That Which Is Substituted For And Against Christ, And Against the Truths Of Christ And Christ Alone - Such As The Fake RCC Sacraments To Lie About The Meaning Of Enduring In Faith With The Lie Of Completing One's Faith Thru Fake Sacraments Which Falsely Add To One's False And Fake RCC Defined Anti-Salvation

 

[Paul Timothy]

We have to suffer from spell check
Jn 20:21
As the father sent me: (mode) so I send you. Same exact mode, christ was sent with mission, power, and authority, the apostles also the same, sent with the same mission, power, and authority

Everything you said was assumptive and filled with bias.
You come at it with the idea that that is what the text says.
But all it says is that Jesus was sent and He then sends the disciples.
Nothing in that verse about mission(other than being sent), power or authority.
These are additions to the text and as such are extra Biblical in nature.

Examples Jesus has the ministry of reconciliation and the apostles have the ministry of reconciliation
2 cor 5:18-19

This looks like sloppy reading of the text. Jesus is the means of reconciliation and the disciples have the ministry of reconciliation. One is the real thing and the other is a job to point to the real thing.

Jesus Light of the world: Jn 8:12 / apostles light of the world Matt 5:14

First verse is Jesus being the light of the world. Second verse in not the disciples only but all believers and is in the context of do not hide your light. It is an admonishment.

Hear: Matt 17:5 / Matt 18:17

The first verse is God telling the crowd to listen to Jesus. The second verse is about church disciple.
How are these related?

Authority: Matt 28:17 / Jn 20:21

The first verse is the disciples worshiping Jesus and some doubted. The second verse is the disciples being sent out. Nothing about authority in either verse.

Forgive sins: Lk 5:20 / Jn 20:23

First verse is Jesus healing the roof dude(first forgiving sins) showing His equality with God. Second verse is Jesus saying that sins remitted and retained by disciples. This one you get rather close.

Truth: Jn 14:6 / 1 Tim 3:15

First verse is Jesus explaining His identity(way,truth,life) to Thomas. Second verse is Paul telling Timothy how to behave.

 

[donadams]

So will Peter be on the Great White Throne?
Or... a better question... will Peter justify souls before God?
What mediation are you referring to?
Where is Peter acting in Christ's role?


What intimate way?
When are the other disciples excluded?
If you are going to make wild claims... please provide references so the rest of us can check your work.
Thank you.

Matt 17 Peter acts as mediator between the leaders of the temple and Jesus
And Jesus identified Peter with himself to the exclusion of the other apostles

Matt 19:28 and 1 cor 6:2

 

[donadams]

Here is Ephesians 4 in context, " I, therefore, the prisoner in the Lord, beg you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, making every effort to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace: there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope of your calling, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in all."

The one body is the body of Christ. Your denomination claims to be separate from the rest of Christ's body, so either you believe the Bible or you don't.

I don’t have a denomination and don’t believe in them only the one true church the “body of Christ” the kingdom the new covenant
Others only claim to be in the body but are not

You quote the Bible, cite multiple verses, yet you discard it as the basis of faith. Interesting! Why do you quote the Bible if it isn't valid for people to read and interpret it? Can you spell "hypocrisy"?

The Bible yes but as the church authentically interprets it
The “Bible alone” no

Verses that contradict “sola scriptura”!

Matt 5:14
Matt 18:17
Matt 28:19
Lk 1:4
Lk 10:16
Jn 8:32
Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21
Acts 1:8
Acts 2:42
Acts 8:26
Acts 8:31
Acts 18:25
1 cor 11:23
1 thes 2:23
2 thes 2:15
Col 2:7
Eph 4:5
Heb 13:7
Heb 13:17
1 Tim 3:15
1 Jn 1:3-5
2 Jn 1:12
Jude 1:3

How can it be said scripture is “sole authority” or the only source of truth or the rule of faith when scripture says we must hear the church Matt 18:17 the apostles are the light of the world Matt 5:14 we must hold the doctrine of the apostles acts 2:42 the church is the pillar and ground of truth 1 Tim 3:15

 

[RudolfRed]

Thanks
Ok how about the Dogma that Jesus Christ is the only savior?

What is your source of authority?
Or truth and faith? “Bible alone”?

OK how about you lie? "The Dogma That Jesus Christ Is The Only Savior" Is Not The Real R.C.C. Dogma. You are clever liars, and devils, who merely pretend that is where you stand.

The best, and most effective lies are always built around the truth, or upon truth, which is then stealthily twisted and poisoned, thru the subterfuge of the Roman Catholic Church, to still try and pretend, for working for your father the devil, that you are still presenting the truth you never really had presented at all.

For example, you so state the lie that the dogma of the R.C.C. is that Jesus is the only Savior, while substituting a fake Jesus, thru other fake doctrines and dogma, such as 1) It was not the one and for all time completed sacrifice of Christ, because we must add all kinds of fake sacraments to complete, or build, or add to, to complete, blah blah blah blah, 2) where enduring to the end, for example against the false lying works and dogma of the R.C.C. leading back to point "1)" means enduring against a cult of lies like the R.C.C., rather than fall for their lies that one has to add to, and build upon a salvation work in progress, and 3) the R.C.C, lie that salvation is a works in progress to be built upon, rather than a work in endurance in faith, which they substitute fake sacraments for, when their clergy isn't to busy in homosexually molesting children, 4) etc.., etc.., etc..,

So no the R.C.C. does not preach a "Jesus Only" when they then qualify that with all of their poison and lies which then makes it anything but a true "Jesus Only" belief system and church, rather than a Blatant Antichrist Cult

 

[Paul Timothy]

Matt 17 Peter acts as mediator between the leaders of the temple and Jesus

This is the mount of transfiguration. I see no reference to the temple in the whole verse.
Do you have a more specific reference.. or is this another typo?

And Jesus identified Peter with himself to the exclusion of the other apostles

Matt 19:28 and 1 cor 6:2

First verse is about all 12 having thrones to judge the tribes(all 12 included, not exclusive at all)
Second verse is the saints judging the world... nothing even about the disciples(this is open to you and me) Peter is not mentioned at all.

 

[donadams]

Please post a scripture that teaches us the word sacraments associated with biblical things.


You are repeating a lot of Catholic words and phrases, and I’m not sure if you understand what they mean, or if they are found in scripture.


If we are going sort out our differences then let’s please use scripture and the actual words of scripture to find common ground.


Let’s start with the word “sacrament”.


Please post a scripture that uses the word sacrament in it so we can both understand what sacrament means.




JLB

Please post a scripture that teaches us the word sacraments associated with biblical things.


You are repeating a lot of Catholic words and phrases, and I’m not sure if you understand what they mean, or if they are found in scripture.


If we are going sort out our differences then let’s please use scripture and the actual words of scripture to find common ground.


Let’s start with the word “sacrament”.


Please post a scripture that uses the word sacrament in it so we can both understand what sacrament means.




JLB

acts 2:38:39 referring to ez 36:25-27

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

“This promise”
A promise from God is an oath and an oath is a sacrament

 

[Randy]

You are not saved… no one is saved until the end. Matt 24:13
Mk 13:13

Yes it is by God’s grace merited in the sacrifice of Christ but applied to our souls in the sacraments

Faith yea but not “faith alone” and baptism and the sacraments are part of the faith we must believe

Are you sure? Isn't it salvation through the forgiveness of sins? In Christ there is no sin.
I put great weight on a personal relationship with Christ. Not ongoing sacraments. His blood was already shed on the cross. There is no ongoing sacrificial system. There is more depth shown than just faith such as obedience to Christ commands. "Loving your neighbor as yourself" Love is a fulfillment of all the law.
Acts 13 grace via the enabling of the Spirit according to the will of the Father. Not sacraments.
When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.
John 6:37-39
All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

 

[donadams]

So you now deny the Church, authority and the existence of apostles?
And again you over reach on your interpenetration of the verse you quote.
Where is there any reference to exclusivity in Matt 16:18.
Implied exclusivity is not guaranteed exclusivity.

No I said if no apostles there’s no authority and no church only the tradition of men claiming to be church
And yes the keys indicate exclusive
Only Peter and his successors have the keys and jurisdictional authority

 

[donadams]

I have never said such a thing.
You are making things up and trying to put it in my mouth?

The successors is the only part I have questions about.

Just because you include references(out of context) does not clarify your point.
Or are you wishing to confuse your point with random references.

I am not looking up any of your references as I have proven in past posts that you reference things way out of context.
Pick ONE reference I a believe you will misrepresent it.
You pick.

Matt 28:19 implies successors in order to teach all nations
The original apostles could never complete this mission

 

[Paul Timothy]

No I said if no apostles there’s no authority and no church only the tradition of men claiming to be church

That was not clear in your previous post nor in this one.

And yes the keys indicate exclusive

Why?
Can not multiple copies of keys exist?
My wife and I both have keys to the house so we are both exclusive authorities?
Do you understand what exclusive means?

Only Peter and his successors have the keys and jurisdictional authority

I see no evidence of your statement in Scripture.
Please show your references.

 

[jaybo]

Matt 17 Peter acts as mediator between the leaders of the temple and Jesus
And Jesus identified Peter with himself to the exclusion of the other apostles

Matt 19:28 and 1 cor 6:2

I find it ludicrous that you claim that it is your priests who have the truth, and those who read the Bible -- God's word -- do not have the truth, then cite the Bible to prove your arguments. So, which is it? Can one rely on the Bible for the truth or your clergy? If the latter, as you claim, why do you cite Scripture to prove your assertions?

 

[Paul Timothy]

I find it ludicrous that you claim that it is your priests who have the truth, and those who read the Bible -- God's word -- do not have the truth, then cite the Bible to prove your arguments. So, which is it? Can one rely on the Bible for the truth or your clergy? If the latter, as you claim, why do you cite Scripture to prove your assertions?

I find it ludicrous that you claim that it is your priests who have the truth, and those who read the Bible -- God's word -- do not have the truth, then cite the Bible to prove your arguments.

 

[jaybo]

I don’t have a denomination and don’t believe in them only the one true church the “body of Christ” the kingdom the new covenant
Others only claim to be in the body but are not

The Bible yes but as the church authentically interprets it
The “Bible alone” no

Verses that contradict “sola scriptura”!

Matt 5:14
Matt 18:17
Matt 28:19
Lk 1:4
Lk 10:16
Jn 8:32
Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21
Acts 1:8
Acts 2:42
Acts 8:26
Acts 8:31
Acts 18:25
1 cor 11:23
1 thes 2:23
2 thes 2:15
Col 2:7
Eph 4:5
Heb 13:7
Heb 13:17
1 Tim 3:15
1 Jn 1:3-5
2 Jn 1:12
Jude 1:3

How can it be said scripture is “sole authority” or the only source of truth or the rule of faith when scripture says we must hear the church Matt 18:17 the apostles are the light of the world Matt 5:14 we must hold the doctrine of the apostles acts 2:42 the church is the pillar and ground of truth 1 Tim 3:15

Are you serious?

a) You do have a denomination: the Catholic denomination. Are you going to deny Catholicism? Yes or no? If the latter, that is proof.

b) As are nonsensical statements such as "Others only claim to be in the body but are not". Who are you to determine who is in the body of Christ and who isn't? Be very, very careful about making such an assumption, as you will have to answer to the Lord for such a decision!

c) Then you write "The Bible yes but as the church authentically interprets it; The “Bible alone” no" and "How can it be said scripture is “sole authority” or the only source of truth or the rule of faith" and cite roughly 24 verses (by a quick count) to prove your point. That is beyond laughable!!!

d) Again, here is proof that you are entirely wrong when you say, ""How can it be said scripture is “sole authority” or the only source of truth or the rule of faith" 2 Timothy 3:16-17, "All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that the person of God may be proficient, equipped for every good work."

You are clearly deluded!!!

 

[jaybo]

I find it ludicrous that you claim that it is your priests who have the truth, and those who read the Bible -- God's word -- do not have the truth, then cite the Bible to prove your arguments.

Is this directed at me or Don Adams? Why are you simply repeating what I wrote?

 

[Paul Timothy]

Is this directed at me or Don Adams? Why are you simply repeating what I wrote?

whoops.. my bad.

I am very sorry... I got mixed up.
Please disregard my flub... too many conversations going on at the same time.

 

[Free]

There are violations of the ToS. Any further violations will result in being banned from this thread.

 

[Paul Timothy]

Yes let's all be polite as we discuss the different perspectives on these ideas.
A lively debate is too easy to get out of hand so stick to the ideas and not the individual and we all will win.