No Pretrib Rapture

[Exeter]

Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

Nowhere in that verse does it say riding the beast from the sea.

Implied, like many things in Scripture:

Rev 17:7 And the angel said to me, Why did you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, that has the seven heads and ten horns.

 

[for_his_glory]

Implied, like many things in Scripture:

That's the problem that leads to misunderstanding the word of God as when one implies something that is not written without other supporting scripture then it causes one to add to or take away from truth.

BTW, this thread is about no pretrib Rapture. If you would like to start a new thread about mystery Babylon tag me in and will discuss it in full there.

 

[for_his_glory]

About the content above, the Word of GOD explains very well who is the red dragon. What matters and prevails is the Word of GOD, the Word is GOD, GOD Himself, self-executing, understand?

Apocalypse (Revelation) 12:9 reveals : -And the great dragon was (will be)cast out,
that old serpent,
called the Devil,
and Satan,
which deceiveth the whole world:(as we can see, including by Internet)
he was (will be) cast out (from heaven-Ephesians 1:3-8) into the earth,
and his messengers (2Corinthians 11:13-15) were (will be) cast out with him.


I disagree . First, in John 8:44 my Lord JESUS describes Him specifically as a liar, saying to the Jews: Ye are of your father the Devil(the MAN of sin, a Jewish MAN, the son of perdition), and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning (killed Abel-Matthew 23:33-35), and abode not in the Truth, because there is no Truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. It's it.

OTOH, "the dragon being great and red" as you said, it is not only because his malign nature, but he is great as is written in Luke 4:5-7:
5 The Devil taking JESUS up into an high mountain,shewed unto JESUS all the kingdoms of the world, 6 saying unto JESUS: All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. 7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. It's it.

Finally, regarding dragon be red , linking "red" as "the nature and character of the dragon being fierce and murderous. In fact it is his SPIRIT as is showed when Cain killed his bother-Genesis 4. We are talking of the Word of GOD, not of the storytellers. In fact, biblically speaking, it is the Hebrew word Edom means "red", and the Hebrew Bible relates it to the name of its founder, Esau, the elder son of the Hebrew patriarch Isaac, because he was born "red all over". As a young adult, he sold his birthright to his brother Jacob.

FURTHERMORE, in this current moment the dragon still has not 7 heads, it will be added to his satanic body only after he stealthy manifest himself as a lamb(a false lamb, a false messiah-John 5:43-47), an esoteric, and kabbalistic, and spiritist messiah, and he will speak as dragon, as is written in Revelation 13:11. In fact he is at door, he was born decades ago, and as soon as he declares himself as the messiah of the Jews-John 5:43-47, he will sit in the holy city of Jerusalem shewing himself that he is God.-2 Thessalonians 2.

Get ready

Here is the mind which hath wisdom. What does the Word of GOD say? The 7 heads are 7 mountains, on which the woman sitteth-Revelation 17:9. Now, now, it already has lasted 2000 years the woman sits on 7 mountains. Which are these mountains? Who is the woman? Do you know? Do you have the answers? Please, tell us.
The 7 heads is linked with 7 kings. Who are them? 5 are fallen, is, the seventh still will be manifest ahead.

What does the Word of GOD say? The 7 heads are 7 mountains, on which the woman sitteth-Revelation 17:9. Now, now, it already has lasted 2000 years the woman sits on 7 mountains. Which are these mountains? Who is the woman? Do you know? Do you have the answers? Please, tell us.
The 7 heads is linked with 7 kings. Who are them? 5 are fallen, is, the seventh still will be manifest ahead.
continue a short space.

I stop in this point for now.

The subject about mystery Babylon is derailing the intentions of the OP. If you want to make a new thread about the dragon and mystery Babylon please tag me in and will discuss it in full.

 

[Exeter]

That's the problem that leads to misunderstanding the word of God as when one implies something that is not written without other supporting scripture then it causes one to add to or take away from truth.

BTW, this thread is about no pretrib Rapture. If you would like to start a new thread about mystery Babylon tag me in and will discuss it in full there.

No thanks. I corrected an earlier mistake by commenting that Satan aka the dragon are not mentioned in Rev 17. Job done.

I showed that the beast carries Mystery Babylon the Great which implies she is riding it. Job done.

Jesus didn't know whether His Return was pretrib, midtrib or post-trib so I'm going with that. Job done.

 

[for_his_glory]

No thanks. I corrected an earlier mistake by commenting that Satan aka the dragon are not mentioned in Rev 17. Job done.

I showed that the beast carries Mystery Babylon the Great which implies she is riding it. Job done.

Jesus didn't know whether His Return was pretrib, midtrib or post-trib so I'm going with that. Job done.

Very well. You have a great evening

 

[DavidT]

No thanks. I corrected an earlier mistake by commenting that Satan aka the dragon are not mentioned in Rev 17. Job done.

I showed that the beast carries Mystery Babylon the Great which implies she is riding it. Job done.

Jesus didn't know whether His Return was pretrib, midtrib or post-trib so I'm going with that. Job done.

Sorry to say, but you need to read your Bible more.

Jesus DID... say when His future return will be... so whether you believe Jesus or not on that, that is really where you show your doubt is about it...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

Can't get any more straightforward than that. Jesus comes IMMEDIATELY AFTER... the "great tribulation" to gather His 'faithful' Church.

This Matt.24:31 version is about Paul's mention of Jesus bringing the asleep saints with Him when He comes, as they are resurrected first (1 Thess.4:13-16). The Mark 13:27 version is about Jesus gathering the saints still alive on earth at His return, what Paul called being "caught up" (1 Thess.4:17).

So don't allow any deceiver try and tell you that Lord Jesus was only speaking to Jews there in His Olivet discourse; no, Jesus was speaking to His whole Church, including the believer on Him today.

 

[for_his_glory]

Sorry to say, but you need to read your Bible more.

Jesus DID... say when His future return will be... so whether you believe Jesus or not on that, that is really where you show your doubt is about it...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

Can't get any more straightforward than that. Jesus comes IMMEDIATELY AFTER... the "great tribulation" to gather His 'faithful' Church.

This Matt.24:31 version is about Paul's mention of Jesus bringing the asleep saints with Him when He comes, as they are resurrected first (1 Thess.4:13-16). The Mark 13:27 version is about Jesus gathering the saints still alive on earth at His return, what Paul called being "caught up" (1 Thess.4:17).

So don't allow any deceiver try and tell you that Lord Jesus was only speaking to Jews there in His Olivet discourse; no, Jesus was speaking to His whole Church, including the believer on Him today.

But yet, no one knows the day or the hour as this is only a sign Jesus gave us to watch for.

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

 

[DavidT]

But yet, no one knows the day or the hour as this is only a sign Jesus gave us to watch for.

And that does what, to what Lord Jesus Christ said there about His coming after the tribulation? Did He give you the day or the hour when that will happen? Nope, He sure did not, and I never proclaimed a certain day or hour either.

The reason why you most likely brought that hour/day topic up from Jesus' Olivet discourse is because the Pre-trib Rapture doctors try... to make something of that topic, to get their deceived believers to stay away from understanding those SIGNS of the 'end' which Jesus gave His faithful Church there in His Olivet discourse. No man knows the day or hour of Christ's future return, like Jesus said. Yet He 'commanded' us to be watching those SIGNS of the end He gave us...

Mark 13:34-37
34 For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.

37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, "Watch."
KJV

Lord Jesus Christ was good to His faithful Church with giving us the SIGNS of the 'end' to be watching for leading up to the time of His future return. He did not give us a specific day or hour of His future return, but He did tell us it would be immediately after... the coming "great tribulation" (Matt.24:29; Mark 13:24). So I choose to listen to Christ on that, and not men's doctrines.

Oh yeah, those 7 SIGNS our Lord Jesus Christ gave in His Olivet discourse are the SEALS of Revelation 6. Even His whole Book of Revelation is more information about those 7 SIGNS He gave His Church leading up to His future return.

 

[Philo]

miamited here is what will happen during the seven trumpets.

When the son of perdition takes his literal seat in the holy place of Jerusalem Jesus warned us to flee as He has a place prepared for us wherever we go to, Matthew 24:15-21; Rev 12:14.

God's protection is absolute to those who escape into the wilderness and trust in Christ to help meet their needs. Just as God told Moses to strike the rock for fresh water, Exodus 17:1-7, and sending manna down from heaven and providing Quail for meat, Exodus 16, so will be the same in the end of days, Philippians 4:19.

Nut shell scenario of what will happen during the first six trumpets of Rev Chapter 8-11 that leads up to the seventh trumpet and the events of Chapter 13 with the beast out of the sea and out of the earth. Then in Rev 19 the marriage supper of the Lamb, those who will be caught up to Christ will happen when He returns with his army of angels and sends them out to gather us to Him in the air, Matthew 24:29-31.

God’s wrath is poured out into the world as chastisements for disobedience, but also a warning that man needs to repent and turn back to God before the door of salvation is closed forever when Christ returns on the last day, John 5:28-29; 6:40.

Hail and fire can be likened unto meteors that fall from the sky. A third of the trees and all the green grass are burned up which makes a third part of the world with a shortage of oxygen in the air that is created from the carbon dioxide from the trees and living plants. Seeing that this is Global the intense fire and smoke from all the trees and grass burning can travel for miles causing much more damage throughout the nations. The trees that produce various healthy foods for our wellbeing will become scarce. The green grasses that would probably include crops of wheat, barley, corn and so forth will be destroyed causing a shortage in food. The animals we depend on as a food source will also die as they are left without vegetation they need to live on.

This great mountain burning with fire could be another meteor or even a series of meteors sent down from heaven at one time, but on an extremely larger scale as the third part of the sea is destroyed along with sea life and the third part of the ships that sit in it. The third part of the sea turned to blood by reason of all the animal life that is killed and those men, women and children who are on these ships that are destroyed. Take into consideration the disease that would spread from all the rotted sea life that is rotting away washing up on the shore and the flesh of those who were burned along with the ships.

These ships will more than likely be types of fuel tankers, merchant, fishing and luxury cruises ships traveling the waters. With the third of these ships being destroyed means a third part of the world’s fuel and food supply would be destroyed. There is only one ocean, but divided by four regions as being the Pacific Ocean, Atlantic Ocean, Arctic Ocean, and the Indian Ocean. This would be like the four corners of the earth as being North, South, East and West. The only difference between the ocean and the sea is that the ocean is much larger and feeds into the 108 seas around the world that also flow into our lakes and streams that provide us with fresh drinking water and other sources of food.

With the third part of the sun, moon and stars being darkened this will affect mans source of electricity and heat that is vital to keep a certain degree of the earth warm, and generated power in homes, hospitals and manufacturing plants including nuclear reactors.

Agriculture and navigation would be hard pressed as it takes the solar power from the sun to run the solar cells that produces the energy needed to run farming machinery and trucks to take the produce to manufacturing plants where the produce is then distributed to market.

Vehicles such as cars, ambulances, planes, trains and the list goes on need an energy source from the sun in order to run their engines. The darkness of the third part of the day would be roughly around eight hours of daylight being lost and total darkness of night as the moon and stars are illuminated by the sun at night. A flashlight would be useless to see in the dark as it needs energy from the sun to run the battery that turns the light on.

This much darkness would cause people to panic in the streets creating chaos as the love of many will wax cold, Matthew 24:12. Riots would break out causing looting and lose of life as those who have not will do anything in desperation to take from those who have much. IMO Marshal law will be enforced as we see history repeat itself with many Christians taken captive that did not flee and killed as they refuse to denounce Christ and take the mark. They will also die a martyr's death, Rev 6:9-11, especially vs. 11. Also we are not to fear what man can do to us, Matthew 10:28.

This is where the mark of the beast comes in during the seventh trumpet as this NWO is a Luciferian system of economics, political, military, educational and false religious power that gives power to the beast out of the earth being the son of perdition. By lying signs and wonders the beast will deceive the nations (people) into taking its mark. IMO I think the mark is the thoughts of our mind and the actions of our hands reaching out to this beast that promises peace, safety and provision as many will bow down and worship this beast who claims to be God.

After the 3 1/2 years of this Luciferian reign on earth that will try and wear out the saints then every eye will see Christ coming in the clouds with His army of angels that are then sent out to gather those saints who are alive at His coming and those who sleep in their graves. We are gathered up to the clouds as we receive our new glorified bodies in order to meet Jesus in the air. From the air He destroys the beast and false prophet by the brightness of His coming only speaking their destruction casting them into the lake of fire. Satan is bound for a time as Jesus sets out to destroy all the nations that followed after the beast. Satan is then released in a final attempt to destroy the saints as he sends his angels out to surround the camp of the saints, but the angels are consumed by fire and Satan cast into the lake of fire. Then comes God's great white throne judgment and the books are opened and all are judged. Then this present heaven and earth are burned up and made new again and the New Jerusalem is ushered down from heaven where we will be with the Lord forever.

Hey for_his_glory

I came across this post you made as I was scrolling through this thread not to long ago. I really like the detail you gave on the effects the judgements will have on the wicked. It could have been useful as I was writing my latest article.

I noticed, though, you have the chronology of end time events a bit misplaced. For example, the 7th Trumpet signifies the return of the Lord to earth, as does the 7th Bowl and 6th Seal. I go through this in my article, which you can read here. It's quite long, but you can just look at the first and last table graphs, as that's where this information is lined up for clear understanding.

Additionally, if you do decide to read the whole thing, I think you'd enjoy my take on the judgement events of The Great Tribulation! It's found at the latter half of the article, if you just want to read them!

 

[Philo]

One thing we should keep in mind is that Revelation may not be narrating in a chronological order, I believe that the seven trumpets and seven bowls are parallel accounts, one from a heavenly perspective, one from an earthly perspective; likewise, the seven seals and the seven signs (woman, child, dragon, Michael the archangel, the sea beast, the earth beast and the 144,000 before the Lamb) also. When the seventh trumpet sounds, the kingdom is proclaimed, God's wrath has been poured out, and the dead judged, game over. That doesn't make any sense if it immediately circles back to the beginning of the Great Tribulation where the dragon was thrown out of heaven and the beast rose from the sea.

Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” (Rev. 11:15)

Hey Carry_Your_Name

I read this post you made, and it really got me excited! Recently, I just finished an article that proves this very point--that the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls are parallel accounts. In it, I line up the corresponding verses of both visions sequentially, and explain exactly how and why this is--making it easy for everyone to understand! If you would like to read it, here is the link to my article! I'm sure you'll really enjoy it!

 

[RandyK]

Hey Carry_Your_Name

I read this post you made, and it really got me excited! Recently, I just finished an article that proves this very point--that the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls are parallel accounts. In it, I line up the corresponding verses of both visions sequentially, and explain exactly how and why this is--making it easy for everyone to understand! If you would like to read it, here is the link to my article! I'm sure you'll really enjoy it!

I agree that the narrative in the book of Revelation, although it has a beginning and an ending to the narrative, is actually non-chronological and consists of a number of overlapping visions. In the 1st half of the book there is one large vision, the Scroll Vision. It ends with the 7 Trumpets, and brings us, as you can tell, to the end of the age and the Return of Christ.

What makes this Book difficult is the fact it is given in the Apocalyptic genre. That is, it is chalk full of symbolism, which seems to be designed to disguise truth that is hostile to the currently-ruling political regime.

In the case of the book of Revelation, the truth is concealed with the figures of OT language so that the NT Christian can understand NT truth fulfilling OT patterns. If we over-literalize all of the figures we will be perpetually confused.

 

[for_his_glory]

Philo

Chronological order:
First seven seals
Second the seven trumpet judgements
Third the seven vial judgements
Fourth the whore is described then destroyed
Fifth the return of Christ casting the beast and false prophet/son of perdition alive into the lake of fire and destroying the political governments that followed after the beast as at that time we are then caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

I do not see a pretrib Rapture before the tribulation begins as scripture says the Church (Body of Christ) will have to endure all things until the return of Christ.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The Church, which represents the bride of Christ, will face seeing much tribulation as it will be hard to bare seeing Gods wrath poured out on the unjust as we are sent out to preach to them before we enter into the kingdom of God (New Jerusalem). There are many false teachings that teach we are taken out of here before some seven year Great Tribulation, which is not found in scripture. If you read about the first six trumpets they have a beginning and an end before the next one sounds. The seventh trumpet has a beginning, but no end until that of Christ return on the last day.

By studying all the scriptures below in Revelations I come to the conclusion we will see much tribulation, but not to fear what must come first before the return of Christ, but stand strong in the faith of Christ Jesus so we can endure until the coming of the Lord. We need to be His witnesses as a faithful servant until He returns. God's wrath is not for the elect of God as they are kept from it falling on them and when we see the abomination that causes desolation, Daniel Chapter 7; Matthew 24:15-22; Rev Chapter 13, we are to flee from taking its mark as we stand in a greater faith in Christ that we need not fear that which has to come first before Christ returns, Matthew 10:28, but that we need to be prepared as His Bride when He does return on the last day and destroys the beast and false prophet at His coming, Rev 19.

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God as we are also His disciples.

Mat 24:13,29-31 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Matthew 24:29-31; Rev 3:5; 19:8 Jesus is telling us to watch for the signs of His coming and to overcome so that our names are not blotted out of the Lamb's book of life.

Rev 5:13; 6:17; 7:1-5 On earth and under the earth are those who are still here until the end of days as God's wrath begins with the opening of the seventh seal.

Rev 6:9-11 Note where John says fellow servants and brethren that should be killed as they were, which means those of the elect of God who refuse to take the mark of the beast and will die a martyr's death for their faith in Christ.

Rev 7:13-17 Which came out of great tribulation is the fullness of the Gentiles who also died a martyr's death for the sake of Christ.

Rev 8:13 Three woes are that of warning the people on earth that the last three trumpets are about to sound.

Rev 13:11-18 Here John is showing us about mystery Babylon ruling the world as a one world government. 666 represents the number of the beast and the mark is the action of the hands and thoughts of the mind as many will be deceived and accept this mark.

Rev 14:14-20 The harvest of Gods Children who are still alive at this time as they are being protected against the vial judgments that will fall on those who have rejected Christ.

Rev 16:11,15 And they repented not. The elect of God are told to watch for the return of Christ as He comes like a theif and we are to keep our garments clean and not found in shame

Rev 18:23, 24 We have now come out of great tribulation through the persecution of the revived Roman Empire and Christ is about to return for His Bride

Rev 19:7,8 We being the Bride of Christ have now made ourselves ready for His coming as those who are still alive at this time and asleep in the grave have endured until the last day when Christ returns and destroys the beast and false prophet and sends His angels out to gather the Bride up to meet Jesus in the air.

Rev 20:4-6 These verses show that we went through much annihilation and endured until the end being the last day when Christ returns.

Rev 20:12-15 The Great White Throne judgment and Jesus judgment for the works we did or did not do for him here on earth

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The Church, which represents the bride of Christ, will face seeing much tribulation as it will be hard to bare seeing Gods wrath poured out on the unjust as we are sent out to preach to them before we enter into the kingdom of God (New Jerusalem). There are many false teachings that teach we are taken out of here before some seven year Great Tribulation, which is not found in scripture no matter how they make scripture to line up with this false theory. There is no seven years, but that of only seven trumpets sounding. If you read about the first six trumpets they have a beginning and an end before the next one sounds. The seventh trumpet has a beginning, but no end until that of Christ return on the last day.

Some also teach that after Rev Chapter 4 the Church is no longer here on earth. If this were the case then why did Jesus say that those who endure until the end will be saved. The end of what, the end of days or as scripture calls it that great and terrible day of the Lord when final judgment will be passed as the Sheep are separated from the goats and the goats are cast into the lake of fire with Satan, the beast and false prophets.

By studying all the scriptures below in Revelations I come to the conclusion we will see much tribulation, but not to fear what must come first before the return of Christ, but stand strong in the faith of Christ Jesus so we can endure until the coming of the Lord. We need to be His witnesses as a faithful servant until He returns. God's wrath is not for the elect of God as they are kept from it falling on them and when we see the abomination that causes desolation, Daniel Chapter 7; Matthew 24:15-22; Rev Chapter 13, we are to flee from taking its mark as we stand in a greater faith in Christ that we need not fear that which has to come first before Christ returns, Matthew 10:28, but that we need to be prepared as His Bride when He does return on the last day and destroys the beast and false prophet at His coming, Rev 19.

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God as we are also His disciples.

Mat 24:13,29-31 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Matthew 24:29-31; Rev 3:5; 19:8 Jesus is telling us to watch for the signs of His coming and to overcome so that our names are not blotted out of the Lamb's book of life.

Rev 5:13; 6:17; 7:1-5 On earth and under the earth are those who are still here until the end of days as God's wrath begins with the opening of the seventh seal.

Rev 6:9-11 Note where John says fellow servants and brethren that should be killed as they were, which means those of the elect of God who refuse to take the mark of the beast and will die a martyr's death for their faith in Christ.

Rev 7:13-17 Which came out of great tribulation is the fullness of the Gentiles who also died a martyr's death for the sake of Christ.

Rev 8:13 Three woes are that of warning the people on earth that the last three trumpets are about to sound.

Rev 13:11-18 Here John is showing us about mystery Babylon ruling the world as a one world government. 666 represents the number of the beast and the mark is the action of the hands and thoughts of the mind as many will be deceived and accept this mark.

Rev 14:14-20 The harvest of Gods Children who are still alive at this time as they are being protected against the vial judgments that will fall on those who have rejected Christ.

Rev 16:11,15 And they repented not. The elect of God are told to watch for the return of Christ as He comes like a theif and we are to keep our garments clean and not found in shame

Rev 18:23, 24 We have now come out of great tribulation through the persecution of the revived Roman Empire and Christ is about to return for His Bride

Rev 19:7,8 We being the Bride of Christ have now made ourselves ready for His coming as those who are still alive at this time and asleep in the grave have endured until the last day when Christ returns and destroys the beast and false prophet and sends His angels out to gather the Bride up to meet Jesus in the air.

Rev 20:4-6 These verses show that we went through much annihilation and endured until the end being the last day when Christ returns.

Rev 20:12-15 The Great White Throne judgment and Jesus judgment for the works we did or did not do for him here on earth

 

[for_his_glory]

Hey Carry_Your_Name

I read this post you made, and it really got me excited! Recently, I just finished an article that proves this very point--that the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls are parallel accounts. In it, I line up the corresponding verses of both visions sequentially, and explain exactly how and why this is--making it easy for everyone to understand! If you would like to read it, here is the link to my article! I'm sure you'll really enjoy it!

Question for you.

Rev 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

The first vial judgement happens after all those who have taken the mark of the beast, which happens during the seventh trumpet when the last antichrist/son of perdition will reign for 3 1/2 years causing all to take the mark of this beast.

My question is how do you understand this?

 

[Philo]

Question for you.

Rev 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

The first vial judgement happens after all those who have taken the mark of the beast, which happens during the seventh trumpet when the last antichrist/son of perdition will reign for 3 1/2 years causing all to take the mark of this beast.

My question is how do you understand this?

I read you posts and it seems your chronology follows the order in which these visions appear in Revelation. But that assumes Revelation was written in chronological order--something that is unfounded.

You're right that the first bowl judgment happens after the implementation of the Mark of The Beast! But it can't possibly happen after the 7th trumpet is blown because the 7th trumpet announces the Lord's physical return to earth. I go though this in my article which you can read here. Just a spoiler, the seven trumpets and seven bowls are sequentially parallel accounts.

I'd post the table graph of the verses that depict the Lord's physical return to the earth, but this site won't let me upload media from my device. Rather, you can view it by clicking on my article and scrolling all the way down until you see 4 passages aligned side by side. If you want to learn why the seven trumpets and seven bowls are parallel accounts, you can just read the first half of the article, where I explain just that.

 

[for_his_glory]

I read you posts and it seems your chronology follows the order in which these visions appear in Revelation. But that assumes Revelation was written in chronological order--something that is unfounded.

You're right that the first bowl judgment happens after the implementation of the Mark of The Beast! But it can't possibly happen after the 7th trumpet is blown because the 7th trumpet announces the Lord's physical return to earth. I go though this in my article which you can read here. Just a spoiler, the seven trumpets and seven bowls are sequentially parallel accounts.

I'd post the table graph of the verses that depict the Lord's physical return to the earth, but this site won't let me upload media from my device. Rather, you can view it by clicking on my article and scrolling all the way down until you see 4 passages aligned side by side. If you want to learn why the seven trumpets and seven bowls are parallel accounts, you can just read the first half of the article, where I explain just that.

I did read your article and like I said I agree in parts and disagree in parts. I do believe that Revelation is in a chronological order, especially if you read Matthew 24 as an outline of events that Jesus explained, but in more detail in Revelations.

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

I'm not saying I am right and you are wrong, but that we see it differently.

 

[Randy]

I read you posts and it seems your chronology follows the order in which these visions appear in Revelation. But that assumes Revelation was written in chronological order--something that is unfounded.

You're right that the first bowl judgment happens after the implementation of the Mark of The Beast! But it can't possibly happen after the 7th trumpet is blown because the 7th trumpet announces the Lord's physical return to earth. I go though this in my article which you can read here. Just a spoiler, the seven trumpets and seven bowls are sequentially parallel accounts.

I'd post the table graph of the verses that depict the Lord's physical return to the earth, but this site won't let me upload media from my device. Rather, you can view it by clicking on my article and scrolling all the way down until you see 4 passages aligned side by side. If you want to learn why the seven trumpets and seven bowls are parallel accounts, you can just read the first half of the article, where I explain just that.

The bowl judgements are the last of Gods judgments and the judgements that plunge the beasts kingdom into darkness.
The beast, the angel of the Abyss, currently bound is released in the days of the sounding of the 5th trump of God. The one noted who overpowers and kills Gods two witnesses as we read in REV 11.

So from the 5th to 7th trump calls of God is the reign of the beast and runs concurrently with the 7 bowl judgments. The beast makes war with the saints and is successful until His appointed 42 months come to a end for God cuts short those days for the sake of the elect.

REV 16:15 - a coming of the Lord to end all tribulation and user in everlasting righteousness.

The harvest is at the very end. The wheat and weeds.

“The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’

28 “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.

“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’

29;“‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”


No teaching about any wheat being gathered earlier then that harvest.
The gathering is on the last day from the ends of the heavens to the ends of the earth. The resurrection of us all and those left alive on earth caught up so they too may be clothed with immortality as flesh and blood can not inherit the eternal kingdom God promised to those who love and obey Him.

Therefore those not raised on this day must be those who suffer.

4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection

 

[Consecrated Life]

The disciples of Jesus had clear understanding from Him, understanding which obviously escapes you, that the Temple no longer held a "holy place" or anything else for them .
Christ was now their All in All .
Jesus declared to them that the temple had been made "desolate" and they would never look to it as a means for their service to God

Matthew 23:38
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

My point stands, Jesus's prophetic warning for people to look to the "holy place" is directed at the future Jews who have been allowed to build a temple and resume daily sacrifice believing in a false peace establish by Satan's man whom they consider to be their Messiah .
They will look to what they believe to be a "holy place" .
The Disciples never looked back, and you will find nothing in scripture showing they held any belief in a "holy place ".
Nothing!

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

The last Temple was left desolate in 70AD well after Christ ascended up to heaven.

The temple was desolate the day that Jesus declared it desolate.
Do not know where you are pulling the date "70AD" from but it is not from scripture.
As further scriptural evidence of the temple being desolate the day that Jesus declared it so is the fact the veil of the Holy place was torn from top to bottom as Jesus was Crucified .
Mar 15:38
And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.

My point stands .
Jesus's admonition concerning the holy place and the anti-christ is a warning to Jews ,not to Christians
Christ was detailing to His disicples what was to happen to a future generation , after the rebuilding of the third temple.

 

[for_his_glory]

The temple was desolate the day that Jesus declared it desolate.
Do not know where you are pulling the date "70AD" from but it is not from scripture.
As further scriptural evidence of the temple being desolate the day that Jesus declared it so is the fact the veil of the Holy place was torn from top to bottom as Jesus was Crucified .
Mar 15:38
And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.

My point stands .
Jesus's admonition concerning the holy place and the anti-christ is a warning to Jews ,not to Christians
Christ was detailing to His disicples what was to happen to a future generation , after the rebuilding of the third temple.

Jesus fulfilled everything the temple stood for being the last sacrificial lamb taking away all the sin of the world. God no longer dwells in a temple made by hands, Acts 7:48-50; 17:22-31; Hebrews 10:7-18

God no longer dwells in a Temple made by hands and this is why God left it desolate all these years when it was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD. Now the Dome of the Rock sits on part of the Temple Mount and was built around 692 AD.

Look up your history, but again what does this have to do with a pretrib Rapture.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Jesus fulfilled everything the temple stood for being the last sacrificial lamb taking away all the sin of the world. God no longer dwells in a temple made by hands, Acts 7:48-50; 17:22-31; Hebrews 10:7-18

God no longer dwells in a Temple made by hands and this is why God left it desolate all these years when it was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD. Now the Dome of the Rock sits on part of the Temple Mount and was built around 692 AD.

Look up your history, but again what does this have to do with a pretrib Rapture.

There will be a third Temple built.
The anti-christ will see to it as world leader
The anti-christ will settle all disputes over the most disputed piece of land on earth and the Jews will once again be conducting their daily sacrifice .
The Jews will be clueless that the Spirit of God does not dwell in this rebuilt Temple .
Just as it did not matter a bit to them as they were using the last Temple for the daily sacrifice after the Spirit of God had long gone, and after they had executed Jesus as well.

 

[for_his_glory]

There will be a third Temple built.
The anti-christ will see to it as world leader
The anti-christ will settle all disputes over the most disputed piece of land on earth and the Jews will once again be conducting their daily sacrifice .
The Jews will be clueless that the Spirit of God does not dwell in this rebuilt Temple .
Just as it did not matter a bit to them as they were using the last Temple for the daily sacrifice after the Spirit of God had long gone, and after they had executed Jesus as well.

Again, what does this have to do with a pretrib Rapture? If you can not stay on topic then please start your own as I will no longer reply to off topic post from you.