Inherint contradictions teaching Faith Alone

[Jethro Bodine]

Maybe we could start saying, that YES, good works are necessary for salvation and/or continued salvation.

Good works are not necessary to become a saved person. And good works are only required to be saved at the resurrection from the wrath of God as the evidence by which you are judged to be a child of God. Not for God's sake. He already knows that. But for the sake of angels and men who would otherwise challenge and dispute the final judgment of God.

Maybe we shouldn't be separating justification from sanctification.

No. You should be distinguishing between the two. Justification is how we become saved people, through our faith in God's forgiveness, apart from our works. Sanctification has two main meanings. When we are saved we are made clean and set apart for a holy purpose. That happens one time and does not need to be repeated. Sanctification is also the process of maintaining that cleanliness. These different aspects of sanctification are represented in Jesus' conversation with his disciples in John 13:10.

10Jesus told him, “Whoever has already bathed needs only to wash his feet, and he will be completely clean.

Sanctification is the bath. That's the setting apart as clean for a holy purpose. That happens one time and does not need to be repeated. The washing of the feet is the regular maintenance of cleaning the vessel that has been set apart for a holy purpose.

It's all what God wants...for us to be saved AND for us to further His Kingdom on earth...
IOW...to DO good works/deeds.

Furthering his kingdom is fine. And he wants each of us to do that according to the gift we have been given and the faith we have to do that. But the most important thing you can do as a Christian is act like one. Obedience is better than sacrifice. The sacrifice of your service will never replace or make up for a deficit in your obedience. This theme goes all through the OT.

Maybe we're relying too much on our justification and not enough on our sanctification.

Sanctification - becoming more and more set apart to God in our behavior - has nothing to do with salvation other than that being the evidence by which we will be recognized at the resurrection as having loved Jesus and the church and, thus, escorted into the eternal kingdom.

 

[JLB]

Good works are not necessary to become a saved person.

I think we all agree on this.

No one can do enough “good works” to earn salvation.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I think we all agree on this.

No one can do enough “good works” to earn salvation.

Yes. Which is exactly why justification can only be received as a free gift of God's grace through faith in God's forgiveness, apart from works - what the Reformed movement confusingly called 'faith alone', causing so many people to confuse Paul's 'righteousness by faith apart from works' teaching with James' 'not by faith alone' teaching, causing them to be in contradiction about the matter of justification when in fact they are not.

 

[GodsGrace]

The branch that is trimmed back is the believing branch in John 15. The branches that are removed are unbelieving branches. Their fruitlessness is the evidence of their unbelief. Whether or not they were ever believing branches is another subject altogether. The point is, they are not believing branches when they are cut out.

I believe I've already replied to the above.
I don't see any statements by Jesus as to believers or non-believers.

What I see in John 15 is that some branches that ARE ATTACHED TO THE VINE...
which are BELIEVED persons...
non-believers are not attached to the vine...

THESE branches become cut off due to unfruitfulness.

Seems simple enough.
If a branch is being nourished by the vine....
meaning it is a LIVING BRANCH....a saved person....
and it is CUT OFF due to unfruitfulness by the vine-dresser....

It means we MUST do good works ONCE WE ARE SAVED.

It seems like you agree.

if you do not,,,then we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[GodsGrace]

I explained this. The branches that are 'in him' but are dead and do not produce any fruit are analogous to the tares 'in the kingdom' sown by the enemy that do not produce the head of grain (Matthew 13:41. Neither the dead branches nor the tares belong to Christ in salvation. Yet they are present in the kingdom of God. Just not in salvation.

41The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will weed out of His kingdom every cause of sin and all who practice lawlessness. Matthew 13:41

When you can understand the tares in the kingdom of God then you can understand the dead branches in the vine.

Why don't you please explain about the tares and the wheat....

One thing I know for sure...
Scripture does not cause conflict.

 

[GodsGrace]

No. Not true.

20 They were broken off because of unbelief Romans 11:20

Unbelieving branches are not true believers. It is the unbelieving branches that are cut out of the tree/vine, not believing branches.

No. Very true.

Because Romans 11:20 is speaking about a totally different idea.
It's unfortunate Paul wrote Romans the way he did.

In Romans 11:20 Paul was addressing THE JEWS
who were the ORIGINAL BRANCHES.

But they were cut off because they did not believe Jesus was the Messiah....
This is true also of Hebrews 6:4 which can mistakenly be used for debating OSAS...
It has nothing to do with OSAS.

In John 15 JESUS is discussing what HE expects from BELIEVERS.
Jesus speaks of behavior and how we are to act and what we are to do in the Kingdom of God
throughout His preaching/teaching.

Jesus is speaking to EVERYONE that wishes to follow Him.

Paul, instead, is addressing THE JEWS in Romans 9, 10 and 11 (and sometimes also the gentiles).

In Romans 11:20 Paul is addressing unbelieving Jews.
In John 15 Jesus is addressing unfruitful believers.

I'd remind you of the parable of the fig tree.
Jesus wanted to cut it down but gave it more time to BECOME FRUITFUL,,,
otherwise, He would cut it down.

 

[GodsGrace]

Good works are not necessary to become a saved person. And good works are only required to be saved at the resurrection from the wrath of God as the evidence by which you are judged to be a child of God. Not for God's sake. He already knows that. But for the sake of angels and men who would otherwise challenge and dispute the final judgment of God.

??
You believe GOD's FINAL judgment as to my salvation will be disputed by men or angels?
Where is this in scripture?
I certainly have missed it.

No. You should be distinguishing between the two. Justification is how we become saved people, through our faith in God's forgiveness, apart from our works. Sanctification has two main meanings. When we are saved we are made clean and set apart for a holy purpose. That happens one time and does not need to be repeated. Sanctification is also the process of maintaining that cleanliness. These different aspects of sanctification are represented in Jesus' conversation with his disciples in John 13:10.

I agree that sanctification is an on-going process....
But you state that it happens only one time...
then you go on to state that it is on-going.
Which is it?

The NT does teach that we are to clean ourselves.
Isaiah 1:16 WASH YOURSELVES AND MAKE YOURSELVES CLEAN
2 Cor 7:1 LET US CLEANSE OURSELVES FROM ALL DEFILEMENT
JAMES 4:8 CLEANSE YOUR HANDS AND PURIFY YOUR HEARTS
(there's more)

Then we also read that GOD cleanses us...
1 John 1:9 GOD IS FAITH TO FORGIVE US AND CLEANSE US FROM ALL SIN
1 John 1:7 THE BLOOD CLEANSES US FROM ALL SIN
Psalm 51:10 CREATE IN ME A NEW HEART

How would YOU reconcile the above?

10Jesus told him, “Whoever has already bathed needs only to wash his feet, and he will be completely clean.

Sanctification is the bath. That's the setting apart as clean for a holy purpose. That happens one time and does not need to be repeated. The washing of the feet is the regular maintenance of cleaning the vessel that has been set apart for a holy purpose.

Answered above.

Furthering his kingdom is fine. And he wants each of us to do that according to the gift we have been given and the faith we have to do that. But the most important thing you can do as a Christian is act like one. Obedience is better than sacrifice. The sacrifice of your service will never replace or make up for a deficit in your obedience. This theme goes all through the OT.

Very confusing J.
So we need to obey.
So what are we debating here??

 

[onlysaved]

Lot's of people who followed Jesus did not have faith in Him. He wasn't talking to believers, He was talking to the people following Him.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I believe I've already replied to the above.
I don't see any statements by Jesus as to believers or non-believers.

The unfruitful branches are the unbelievers. There is no such thing as an unfruitful believer:

9Anyone born of God refuses to practice sin, because God’s seed abides in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 1 John 3:9

Only unbelievers are unfruitful. A true believer would have to go back to unbelief, assuming that's possible, to be unfruitful. Then they would be cut out of the vine.

What I see in John 15 is that some branches that ARE ATTACHED TO THE VINE...
which are BELIEVED persons...

And what I see is branches in the vine that are unbelievers. Their unfruitfulness, and the fact that they don't have the life giving sap of the vine in them being the evidence of their unbelief. They are cut out, not the living branches. Living branches are trimmed back, not cut out.

...non-believers are not attached to the vine...

Yes they are, until they are cut off. Romans 11:20

20They were broken off because of unbelief

THESE branches become cut off due to unfruitfulness.

Due to unbelief.

If a branch is being nourished by the vine....
meaning it is a LIVING BRANCH....a saved person....
and it is CUT OFF due to unfruitfulness by the vine-dresser....

Yes, but only when it is dead and not being nourished by the vine. No branch being nourished by the vine is cut out. Cut back, perhaps, but not cut out.

It means we MUST do good works ONCE WE ARE SAVED.

It seems like you agree.

I agree, but not for the purpose of justification. That is where our disagreement lies. No one has to do works in order to be justified (made righteous). That happens through the forgiveness of sin, received by faith, apart from works.

 

[JLB]

The unfruitful branches are the unbelievers.

Branches in Christ are unbelievers?

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;


Born again believers who are in Christ can indeed walk according to the flesh.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1


I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:16-21

• Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
• that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

JLB

 

[Rodger]

Do you understand what "works" refers to?

There is the works of the law of Moses.
There is works that earn a wage.
There is good works.

Then there is a specific "work" or action that is required of faith, to activate it, or make it alive, so that it produces the intended divine result.


I hope to have a good discussion.


I agree, "faith alone" is not biblical, and once a person understands that faith must have a certain specific work, or action, then they inherently stop using the term "faith alone".




JLB

I would say that the context of James 2:24 is not arguing against the doctrine of salvation by faith alone.

The Second thing I would say here is that the Bible does not need to contain the precise phrase “faith alone” in order to clearly teach salvation by faith alone.

The Bible does not contain the precise, specific word "Trinity" but it is nonetheless a Bible teaching.
The Bible does not contain the precise, specific word "Rapture", but it is still a Bible teaching.

While James 2:24 is the only verse that contains the precise phrase “faith alone,” there are many other verses that do, in fact, teach salvation by faith alone. Any verse that ascribes salvation to faith/belief, with no other requirement mentioned, is a declaration that salvation is by faith alone.

Consider John 3:16 where God declares that salvation is given to “whoever believes in Him.”

Acts 16:31 proclaims, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.”

Ephesians 2:8 says, “For by grace you have been saved through faith.”

IMHO, the Bible argues against a salvation that is alone, a salvation devoid of good works and obedience to God’s Word.

James’s point in 2:18 is that we demonstrate our faith by what we do.

Regardless of the absence of the precise phrase “faith alone,” the New Testament definitely teaches that salvation is the product of God’s grace in response to our faith plus nothing that we do to be saved.

However, it is clear that the Bibles teaches us that because we are saved, we will desire to do good works which validate the act of justification by faith.

To me, it is exactly like baptism. Water baptism does not save us but because we are saved, we should want then to identify with what Christ did for us.

 

[JLB]

The Second thing I would say here is that the Bible does not need to contain the precise phrase “faith alone” in order to clearly teach salvation by faith alone.

How about the phrase “Faith by itself”?

Would that be more clear?

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:17

Follow up with a repeat.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Branches in Christ are unbelievers?

What part of unbelieving branches being broken off in this passage of scripture do you not understand?

19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief. Romans 11:29-20

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;

Branches that do not bear fruit are unbelieving, dead branches. They are dead because they do not have the sap of the vine (the Holy Spirit) in them. They are the branches that get cut out.

Born again believers who are in Christ can indeed walk according to the flesh.

Yes. But that doesn't mean they are dead. Believing branches have the life-giving sap of the vine in them and are fruitful to one degree or another. They can't help but to be fruitful because they are born again (1 John 3:9). They would have to go back to unbelief to be broken off. Assuming that's possible. Unbelieving branches are the one's that get broken off, not the believing branches.

You have to stop condemning born again believers. As long as they continue to believe they will never be cut out of the vine, despite their failures along the way. As long as they don't go back to unbelief they will continue to abide in the vine. Continuing to believe what you heard in the beginning is how you continue in the vine:

24As for you, let what you have heard from the beginning remain in you. If it does, you will also remain in the Son and in the Father. (1 John 2:24).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How about the phrase “Faith by itself”?

James' "faith by itself" is not Paul's "apart from works." That's what you're not getting. Don't confuse the two.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Because those who practice such things are unbelievers. Believers don't practice such things.

8The one who practices sin is of the devil

9Anyone born of God refuses to practice sin

1 John 3:8,9

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You believe GOD's FINAL judgment as to my salvation will be disputed by men or angels?

No, because the evidence of your life prevents them from disputing it.

19...so that every mouth may be silenced... Romans 3:19

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I agree that sanctification is an on-going process....
But you state that it happens only one time...
then you go on to state that it is on-going.
Which is it?

Both.

Sanctification in it's two most fundamental meanings means to 'set apart as holy' and 'make clean'. Sanctification is like when mom buys a set of fine china plates. She sets them aside reserving them for a special purpose - holidays and special occasions. She doesn't do that over and over again. It's only necessary to set them aside one time. But there may be a process of training the kids to quit using them for after-school chili dogs and so they are in a continual process of being made clean. The author of Hebrews refers to this completed sanctification, and the process of sanctification in this passage just four verses apart from each other:

10And by that will, we have been sanctified through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

14because by a single offering He has made perfect for all time those who are being sanctified.
Hebrews 10:10,14

So when you and I believed and were saved, God cleaned us and set us apart for a holy purpose - one time, not needing to repeat that setting apart - and so we were sanctified one time for all time. But we are also in the process of being made clean from our habit of dirtying the clean vessels God set us apart to be. Jesus uses the analogy of having a bath and needing only to clean the feet:

10Jesus told him, “Whoever has already bathed needs only to wash his feet...” John 13:10

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The NT does teach that we are to clean ourselves.
Isaiah 1:16 WASH YOURSELVES AND MAKE YOURSELVES CLEAN
2 Cor 7:1 LET US CLEANSE OURSELVES FROM ALL DEFILEMENT
JAMES 4:8 CLEANSE YOUR HANDS AND PURIFY YOUR HEARTS
(there's more)

Then we also read that GOD cleanses us...
1 John 1:9 GOD IS FAITH TO FORGIVE US AND CLEANSE US FROM ALL SIN
1 John 1:7 THE BLOOD CLEANSES US FROM ALL SIN
Psalm 51:10 CREATE IN ME A NEW HEART

How would YOU reconcile the above?

Our repentance cleanses the outer man - the perishable part of us. We do that. While the blood of Jesus by the Spirit of God cleanses the spirit of a man - the imperishable part of us. God does that.

23everything that can withstand the fire—must be put through the fire, and it will be clean. But it must still be purified with the water of purification. And everything that cannot withstand the fire must pass through the water. Numbers 31:22-23

The fire of the Spirit cleanses and purifies the inner man. The water of our repentance cleans and purifies the outer man. Both must be done.

Eternally-grateful
for_his_glory

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It's all what God wants...for us to be saved AND for us to further His Kingdom on earth...
IOW...to DO good works/deeds.

Furthering his kingdom is fine. And he wants each of us to do that according to the gift we have been given and the faith we have to do that. But the most important thing you can do as a Christian is act like one. Obedience is better than sacrifice. The sacrifice of your service will never replace or make up for a deficit in your obedience. This theme goes all through the OT.

Very confusing J.
So we need to obey.
So what are we debating here??

Hopefully, by now you can see that we are not in disagreement that one must work after salvation. I've never disagreed with that. My disagreement with you is that we do not have to work after salvation to be justified. We are justified through God's forgiveness, all by itself, apart from our works of righteousness - one time, for all time when we first believe (Hebrews 10:14).

And I wanted to point out to you that the work that we must do after salvation that counts is the expression of our faith in the command to 'love your neighbor as yourself' (Galatians 5:6), the summation of the law. Furthering the kingdom and doing other works of service after salvation is fine, but the most important 'work' you are to do, the most important 'rule' you are to follow after salvation, is be a new creation. A new creation that loves as God loves.

15What counts is a new creation. 16Peace and mercy to all who walk by this rule - Galatians 6:15-16