Jethro Bodine
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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Inherint contradictions teaching Faith Alone
- Thread starter RBDERRICK
- Start date
It is a blessing to speak with you. I will be glad to explain.
James 2:24 is not a negative connotation IMHO. James is simply saying that If a person says he has faith, but he gives no outward evidence of that faith through righteous works, his faith will not justify him. I believe that Martin Luther, John Calvin, or John Knox would absolutely agree with James.
We are not saved by a profession of faith or by a claim to faith. That faith has to be genuine before the merit of Christ will be imputed to anybody. You can't just say you have faith. True faith will absolutely and necessarily yield the fruits of obedience and the works of righteousness. James was saying that those works don't add to that person's justification at the judgment seat of God. But they do justify his claim to faith before the eyes of man. IN other words, what we do for Christ proves that we are in Christ to those who see us.
Then you said...........
"since Jesus NEVER said to believe in Him ONLY and you would be saved."
Have you considered John 14:6 where God said........
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
Acts 4:12..........
"And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”1 Tim. 2:5.........
"For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,"
There are more but I think those are enough. Now.....Before you say, "They do not specifically say FAITH ALONE".....I know that. However there is a process in theology whereby we use "Implied Truth".
It is by Implied Truth that we understand the doctrine of the Trinity and the Rapture. In other words, specific words do not have to be seen for the truth to be implied through others words.
Is it a mental belief like also the demons have?
Or does it mean something more?
You asked me.........
"What does believe mean?"
That is a very elementary question to be asking. I would have thought you and everyone knew what it means. Anyway, BELIEVE means to place your confidence in the truth, the existence or the reliability in something, without absolute proof.
You also asked........
"Is it a mental belief like also the demons have?"
James 2:19 says.........
"You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe — and shudder!"
The “faith” of demons is useless, even though they tremble at what they know to be true. People who say they “believe” in God while showing no evidence of faith and live in continual known sin, have a level of “belief” similar to that of demons.
Yes sir.
Uselly/most always, that is a sign of religious denominational bias to further their agenda.
In other words, the Catholic believer would use that path because they have been told their whole life that to be a good Catholic they must DO GOOD deeds.
They will say that the specific words "Faith Alone" to be saved is not in the Bible so they accept works as there fall back. That same person will then say that they believe and accept the Trinity but the specific words TRINITY are not in the Bible either.
Brother, in my simple country boy way of thinking, YES......"Faith by Itself" means the same as "Faith Alone".
You do understand I hope and I am sure that you do, this kind of debate only happens when a Catholic believer is involved. They have been taught their whole life that salvation is from faith and doing good works. By insisting on "Faith Alone or Faith by itself" is a slap in their face of understanding.
However, rejecting the doctrine of salvation by faith alone based on this one verse in James has two major problems.
#1. The context of James 2:24 is not arguing against the doctrine of salvation by faith alone.
#2. Most everyone knows that the Bible does not need to contain the precise phrase “faith alone” in order to clearly teach salvation by faith alone.
Regardless of the absence of the precise phrase “faith alone,” the New Testament definitely teaches that salvation is the product of God’s grace in response to our faith. “Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? . . . On that of faith” (Romans 3:27). There is no other requirement.
GodsGrace
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I never said this.
Show me where I posted that we are justified by works or faith plus works.
GodsGrace
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Rodger,
No Christian I know, including Catholics, believe that we are saved by works.
This strawman argument is really tiring.
More than half of all Protestants, by a Pew Research believe that good works are necessary.
Since we all believe that justification is by faith alone...
After 500 Years, Reformation-Era Divisions Have Lost Much of Their Potency
As Protestants prepare to mark the 500th anniversary of the Reformation, two new surveys show the theological differences that split Western Christianity in the 1500s have diminished.
www.pewresearch.org
Surely, we must be speaking of sanctification.
Or are you one of those Christians that believes Jesus has done it all and we are:
1. To DO nothing.
2. Our works are as filthy rags.
3. Our works are unrighteous.
Are you of the reformed faith? Perhaps you're not aware that the idea of FAITH ALONE/FAITH ONLY came about at the reformation and means something very specific. It means that we are saved, justified and sanctified by faith alone. Is this what you believe?
Last edited:
GodsGrace
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You did NOT support your point with scripture.
You are not properly exegeting the verses involved
and I really can no longer discuss this with you.
If you believe John 15:1-2 is discussing unbelievers,,,it is up to YOU to explain the verses.
You have not because they are speaking of BELIEVERS.
UNBELIEVERS ARE NOT A PART OF THE VINE.
Unless you can show how John 15:1-2 SPECIFICALLY is speaking of unbelievers BEING IN THE VINE,
and BEING PART OF JESUS,,,,this conversation must stop.
UNBELIEVERS are not part of the vine or part of Jesus.
John 15:1-6 is speaking of believers that do are not fruitful...
that do not do good works.
GodsGrace
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Sorry. I just saw this post.
So are you saying that works DO justify us?
Martin Luther believed in SOLA FIDE,,,faith alone.
John Calvin stated that faith alone is correct, in a manner of speaking....because LOVE must always be part of our faith. So Calvin just added something to faith in order to be saved....love.
Rodger...everybody on this Forum understands what makes a person be defined as Christian.
A fake profession of faith will not achieve any result.
This is very close to properly stating what the NT teaches,,,but like other members, you're a tad shy of what the NT teaches.
So, would you say that FOR A BORN AGAIN BELIEVER, it is necessary to do good works as Jesus taught?
Can we have a simple YES or NO?
I've considered everything.
If Jesus is the way and the truth as you've stated...
would you agree that it's necessary for us to obey His commands?
John 14:15
15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
Nothing to do with this discussion.
Who stated that there is another name by which to be saved??
Sorry, but if you want to use the verses you've posted...
you'll have to connect the dots.
I don't care for IMPLIED truth....
there is THE truth and that is all there is.
The Godhead/Trinity is in the NT and the OT.
The idea that good works are somehow subjective and not really necessary,
is NOT in the NT nor in the OT.
God DEMANDS that we obey Him.
John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey [believes] the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
Unfortunately, your definition of BELIEVE is not correct.
Then demons also believe as we do.
No.
Believe means to trust to the point where you OBEY and FOLLOW the person in whom you have this trust.
It is not a mental belief, as the demons also have,,,it is a belief that leads to action...the action called for by the person whom you are trusting.
Explained above.
And you're speaking of sinning...
this convo is about doing good works/deeds.
I'd say it's a bit beyond those that live in sin.
This is a very long, convoluted post with question after question.
I will speak to the 1st question you asked, which was...........
"So are you saying that works do justify us""
Galatians 2:16 .......
"know that a man is not justified by works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified."
So then the answer is NO! What I said was about a man who SAYS he is saved but never has any good works. The faith under discussion is not genuine saving faith but the inadequate self-declared faith.
If you would like to discuss those other questions, you can certainly ask them one at a time and I will be glad to respond.
Then I guess I know more Catholics than you do my friend.Rodger,
No Christian I know, including Catholics, believe that we are saved by works.
This strawman argument is really tiring.
More than half of all Protestants, by a Pew Research believe that good works are necessary.
Since we all believe that justification is by faith alone...
After 500 Years, Reformation-Era Divisions Have Lost Much of Their Potency
As Protestants prepare to mark the 500th anniversary of the Reformation, two new surveys show the theological differences that split Western Christianity in the 1500s have diminished.
Surely, we must be speaking of sanctification.
Or are you one of those Christians that believes Jesus has done it all and we are:
1. To DO nothing.
2. Our works are as filthy rags.
3. Our works are unrighteous.
Are you of the reformed faith? Perhaps you're not aware that the idea of FAITH ALONE/FAITH ONLY came about at the reformation and means something very specific. It means that we are saved, justified and sanctified by faith alone. Is this what you believe?
The Roman Catholic Church in the Catholic Catechism teaches that we can merit grace necessary for salvation and that, after first having faith, we attain eternal life by works, baptism, and keeping the commandments.
- CCC 2010, “…Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life.”
- CCC 2027, “Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.”
- CCC 2068, “The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 the Second Vatican Council confirms: “The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments.”
I do not know one single Protestant that believes good works are necessary for salvation, NOT ONE!
GodsGrace
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Really Rodger...
Do you think I'm asking you questions because I need a reply?
No.
I'm asking you questions so you could THINK about what you're saying.
You bring up Galatians 2:16
Notice that Paul is speaking about THE WORKS OF THE LAW.
Here's another question for you:
What's the difference between the works of the Law
and
Good works?
I already know the answer.
And I'll as you another question what could end this discussion right here, right now:
IS IT REQUIRED OF BORN AGAIN BELEIVERS TO DO GOOD WORKS?
I reply YES.
You sure do ask a lot of questions.Rodger,
No Christian I know, including Catholics, believe that we are saved by works.
This strawman argument is really tiring.
More than half of all Protestants, by a Pew Research believe that good works are necessary.
Since we all believe that justification is by faith alone...
After 500 Years, Reformation-Era Divisions Have Lost Much of Their Potency
As Protestants prepare to mark the 500th anniversary of the Reformation, two new surveys show the theological differences that split Western Christianity in the 1500s have diminished.
Surely, we must be speaking of sanctification.
Or are you one of those Christians that believes Jesus has done it all and we are:
1. To DO nothing.
2. Our works are as filthy rags.
3. Our works are unrighteous.
Are you of the reformed faith? Perhaps you're not aware that the idea of FAITH ALONE/FAITH ONLY came about at the reformation and means something very specific. It means that we are saved, justified and sanctified by faith alone. Is this what you believe?
YES........when it comes to salvation, Jesus did it all! To be saved we must believe that Jesus is the Christ and that He died and rose from the dead after 3 days. That is it! Nothing more nothing less!
Yes......our works are filthy rags just as Isiah said.
Yes......our works are unrighteous.
Am I of the reformed faith? If by that you mean am I believer in the Reformed theology that holds to the authority of Scripture, the sovereignty of God, salvation by grace through Christ, and the necessity of evangelism.....Then YES I am.
I am actually part of the denomination of Southern Baptists.
Yes......we are saved at the moment of salvation which means we are justified, by faith alone, and we live in Christ and grow in grace and knowledge as we are continuelly sanctified.
GodsGrace
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Here is your link again Rodger....
If you don't believe what is clearly stated...we may have to stop posting to each other:
After 500 Years, Reformation-Era Divisions Have Lost Much of Their Potency
As Protestants prepare to mark the 500th anniversary of the Reformation, two new surveys show the theological differences that split Western Christianity in the 1500s have diminished.
www.pewresearch.org
As to the CCC,,,you're in luck. I'm not Catholic but actually taught from the CCC....
so here we go:
- CCC 2010, “…Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life.”
B. It is the Holy Spirit that works in us TO BE LOVING, which is what charity is.
C. God gives more grace as it is needed for our sanctification.
D. It is through obeying God that we attain eternal life.
What here is not biblical?
- CCC 2027, “Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.”
If I tell someone to do a chore and I'll pay them for it...that is an earned salvation.
If someone is SAVED, and they do good works...they MERIT heaven.
Try this:
If I tell my son to mow the lawn and I'll pay him $20. and he mows the lawn,,,he just EARNED $20.
If my son mows the lawn, ON HIS OWN INITIATIVE because he want to help me or please me,
and I give him $20. HE MERITED that $20.
This is an important concept to understand since God REQUIRES us to do good works and these good works will MERIT us heaven...not because we worked for it. See Eph 2:8-9.....which even Catholics believe.
- CCC 2068, “The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 the Second Vatican Council confirms: “The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments.”
So WHICH of the above is not biblical in your opinion?
1. Does Paul not state in Romans that the gospel is salvation for all people?
2. Are we not required to obey God's commandments?
3. Is faith required for salvation?
4. Is bapism required for salvation?
5. Really,,,,you believe we do not have to keep the 10 commandments?
Also, it would be nice to use scripture instead of the CCC since most on this Forum do not know the CCC
and are not required to know it. Not too many Catholics around here.
GodsGrace
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Interesting that you hate Catholicism so much.
I hope you're aware that your hero, Augustine, was Catholic.
Now why would you accept Augustine's gnostic theories on some subject matter....
but not on ALL subject matter addressed by him?
Also, do you really think that only the reformed believe:
THE AUTHORITY OF SCRIPTURE
THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD
SALVATION BY GRACE ALONE
THE NECESSITY OF EVANGELISM
??
I do wonder why evangelism would even be necessary in reformed theology, but that's a different topic.
And, with that, I must say good night.
GodsGrace
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J, check out post no. 774 right on this thread.
THIS is what your statements bring to..
THIS is what is taught in some circles.
Do you agree with 774?
If not,,,you should clearly state what the NT teaches,,,
and it's NOT that our works are filthy rags, but a pleasant odor to God.
It's NOT that our works are unrighteous,,,
but that they are necessary for admittance into the Kingdom of God here on earth.
The Kingdom...comprised of believers that are willing to obey Jesus and His commands
in order to make this world a better place.
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Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.
1 John 3:9-10
I agree with these verses, but unfruitful branches are not mentioned.
The branch and vine illustrations Jesus used is about branches which presents people that are “in Him”.
Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
This topic about producing fruit.
1 John 3:9-10 is about sin.
Jethro Bodine
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My dear friend......I do not hate anyone.
What I do is teach and believe the Word of God. If that seems to offend any Catholic then my suggestion would be to actually read the Bible, and believe what it says.
My "hero", for information was my father. He was a decorated WW2 100% disabled Army veteran who read the Bible, took his family to church and lead all of his children to Christ.
YES..........I accept the Bible fact that =
"THE AUTHORITY OF SCRIPTURE.
2 Timothy 3:16-17: ....
"All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work."
THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD.
Daniel 4:35.....
"All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, “What have you done?”
SALVATION BY GRACE ALONE
Ephesians 2:8:......
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
THE NECESSITY OF EVANGELISM
In Mark 16:15 the Lord Jesus gave this command:
“Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to all the creation.”
My advice to you is .....Spend less time on a web site forum and more time reading the Word of God and then you would not ask such elementary questions.
It is impossible to not be a Catholic and yet "Teach from the CCC"!Here is your link again Rodger....
If you don't believe what is clearly stated...we may have to stop posting to each other:
After 500 Years, Reformation-Era Divisions Have Lost Much of Their Potency
As Protestants prepare to mark the 500th anniversary of the Reformation, two new surveys show the theological differences that split Western Christianity in the 1500s have diminished.
As to the CCC,,,you're in luck. I'm not Catholic but actually taught from the CCC....
so here we go:
A. Merit does not mean earn. Will be happy to go thru this with you in the AM,,,it's almost midnight here.
- CCC 2010, “…Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life.”
B. It is the Holy Spirit that works in us TO BE LOVING, which is what charity is.
C. God gives more grace as it is needed for our sanctification.
D. It is through obeying God that we attain eternal life.
What here is not biblical?
OK. Let's explain merit real quick:
- CCC 2027, “Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.”
If I tell someone to do a chore and I'll pay them for it...that is an earned salvation.
If someone is SAVED, and they do good works...they MERIT heaven.
Try this:
If I tell my son to mow the lawn and I'll pay him $20. and he mows the lawn,,,he just EARNED $20.
If my son mows the lawn, ON HIS OWN INITIATIVE because he want to help me or please me,
and I give him $20. HE MERITED that $20.
This is an important concept to understand since God REQUIRES us to do good works and these good works will MERIT us heaven...not because we worked for it. See Eph 2:8-9.....which even Catholics believe.
- CCC 2068, “The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 the Second Vatican Council confirms: “The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments.”
So WHICH of the above is not biblical in your opinion?
1. Does Paul not state in Romans that the gospel is salvation for all people?
2. Are we not required to obey God's commandments?
3. Is faith required for salvation?
4. Is bapism required for salvation?
5. Really,,,,you believe we do not have to keep the 10 commandments?
Also, it would be nice to use scripture instead of the CCC since most on this Forum do not know the CCC
and are not required to know it. Not too many Catholics around here.
You posted..................
- CCC 2068, “The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 the Second Vatican Council confirms: “The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments.”
1.
2.
3. Is faith required for salvation?
4. Is bapism required for salvation?
5. Really,,,,you believe we do not have to keep the 10 commandments?
I would rather, instead of discussing the CCC, speak the Bible with you. By your own words you are a Catholic believer, and that is fine with me. What I do question however is the "HOSTILITY" you project to those who do not believe as you do! Is that Catholic teaching that you learned?????
Do you have the ability to speak with Protestants on a level field with love and humility?????
1. YES.
Paul says in Rom. 1:16-17 that it is “the power of God for salvation to everyone who has faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed through faith for faith; as it is written, ‘The one who is righteous will live by faith’”.
2. NO.
If you had read the Bible you would then know that The key to understanding the relationship between the Christian and the Law is knowing that the Old Testament law was given to the nation of Israel, not to Christians. The Old Testament law can be a good guidepost for knowing how to love God and knowing what goes into loving your neighbor. At the same time, to say that the Old Testament law applies to Christians today is incorrect. The Old Testament law is a unit (James 2:10). Either all of it applies, or none of it applies. If Christ fulfilled some of it, such as the sacrificial system, He fulfilled all of it.
3. YES.
Sola Fide—is the bedrock of the Gospel. Without FAITH, the sinners understanding of salvation crumbles. This BIBLE truth—justification by faith alone—was central to the Protestant Reformation and remains essential for the Christian life today.
4. NO! I believe exactly what the Bible says and that is I strongly believe that each and every Christian should be water baptized by immersion after they come to Christ by faith and accept Him as Saviour.
Requiring anything in addition to faith in Jesus Christ for salvation is a works-based salvation. To add anything to the gospel is to say that Jesus’ death on the cross was not sufficient to purchase our salvation. To say that baptism is necessary for salvation is to say we must add our own good works and obedience to Christ’s death in order to make it sufficient for salvation. Jesus’ death alone paid for our sins (Romans 5:8; 2 Corinthians 5:21). Jesus’ payment for our sins is appropriated to our “account” by faith alone (John 3:16; Acts 16:31, Ephesians 2:8-9). Therefore, baptism is an important step of obedience after salvation but cannot be a requirement for salvation.
5. Already answered in #2.
How do you think that you can keep "ALL" of the Law????
There are 613 commandments, not just ten.
Do you scan the Scriptures saying to yourself.... “Hmmmmm…let’s see…I’ll take this one, ‘Do not commit adultery,’ that looks good. I can do that. Oh, and ‘Do not steal,’ I like that one.”
Do not murder, OK.
What about....“‘Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy," did you put that put that on your plate? If not, you are fooling yourself, because the Sabbath is from Friday to Saturday, not Sunday morning.”
“For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.” (James 2:10)
That’s why Jesus came to give us a new agreement with God and to make the old agreement obsolete because NO ONE can keep ALL of the Law ALL of the time.
The writer to the Hebrews–to the Jews–let them know about this Changing of the Guard in 8:13.....
By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete .
The Old Covenant is obsolete, just like the pay-phone is obsolete. It’s not needed because it’s useless and something better is here! Further, as non-Jews, the only Covenant we ever had is the New one!
Amen!
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