Inherint contradictions teaching Faith Alone

[mailmandan]

Jesus Refered to both Peter and Judas as Satan and a devil.

Neither Peter nor Judas were literally Satan or a devil. I already covered this in posts #1091 and #1095.

 

[mailmandan]

The scriptures said … we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God

That was Peter speaking who presumed Judas was a believer like the rest of the disciples but did not infallibly know that Judas was a devil. (John 6:70-71)

Judas like the other eleven, believe Jesus was the Messiah, the Son of God, and demonstrated they believed by following Him, even after the other disciples turned away from Him.

Regardless of what Judas believed "about" Jesus, he did not truly believe in His name and become a child of God (John 1:12) but instead was the son of perdition. (John 17:12)

Judas and Peter both fell way from Christ.

In Matthew 26:31-56, we see that all the disciples were said to "fall away" when Jesus was betrayed by Judas and arrested. For the 11 remaining disciples, this was a temporary weak moment and was not permanent. Proverbs 24:16 - For a righteous man may fall seven times and rise again, but the wicked shall fall by calamity.

Peter returned, and was restored.

After denying Jesus three times, Peter experienced deep remorse and wept bitterly. Jesus, however, forgave him and restored him, giving him the responsibility of leading the church.

Judas did not.

Judas on the other hand, betrayed Jesus then committed suicide and was neither forgiven nor restored with the other disciples. That is the difference between children of God and a child of the devil.

 

[JLB]

Neither Peter nor Judas were literally Satan or a devil. I already covered this in posts #1091 and #1095.

Now that you agree…


Judas was predestined to reign with Christ in the age to come.

• you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

 

[JLB]

Judas on the other hand, betrayed Jesus then committed suicide and was neither forgiven nor restored with the other disciples.

That’s correct.

 

[mailmandan]

Now that you agree…

Judas was predestined to reign with Christ in the age to come.

• you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

YOU WHO HAVE FOLLOWED ME and not you who have betrayed me. Big difference. If Judas was predestined to reign with Christ then he would end up reigning with Christ but that is not the case.

Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress its certainty.

 

[JLB]

YOU WHO HAVE FOLLOWED ME and not you who have betrayed me. Big difference. If Judas was predestined to reign with Christ then he would end up reigning with Christ but that is not the case.

That’s the point.

Predestined doesn’t guarantee anything.

God’s desires all men to be saved.

Will all men be saved?


How long does a person need to followed Christ to be saved?

 

[Rodger]

So he followed Jesus for three and half years and was promoted to an apostle because he didn’t believe in Him?

Bro, that makes zero sense.

Judas didn’t believe to the end.

Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
1 Corinthians 15:1-2

Those who don’t believe to the end, their believing in which they did at the beginning to saved, was done in vain.

But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
Matthew 24:13

This is what the parable of the Sower teaches about persecution and falling away.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

• which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.
1 Peter 1:6-9

• receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

There is NO record or Scriptures that validate that Judas was ever born again.

Yes, Though he followed Jesus externally and participated in ministry activities, his heart was never transformed. He represents those who are near to Jesus but never truly belong to Him.

You are welcome to believe what ever you choose, but there is simply NO Scriptures to prove Judas was a born again believer.

 

[Rodger]

Ok

From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?” But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:67-69

I do not know why you posted John 6:67-69.

That IMHO has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

 

[mailmandan]

That’s the point.

Predestined doesn’t guarantee anything.

God’s desires all men to be saved.

Will all men be saved?

How long does a person need to followed Christ to be saved?

You seem to have more faith in self preservation than you do in God's preservation. (Psalm 37:28; Jude 1:1) Predestined highlights how God foreknew those who would be saved, predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, called them, justified them, and ultimately glorified them. (Romans 8:29-30)

Although God desires all men to be saved not all men will be saved. Those who are saved continue to follow Christ and do not betray Him.

 

[Rodger]

The scriptures said … we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God


Judas like the other eleven, believe Jesus was the Messiah, the Son of God, and demonstrated they believed by following Him, even after the other disciples turned away from Him.


Judas and Peter both fell way from Christ.

Peter returned, and was restored.

Judas did not.

Judas "betrayed" Jesus unto death. Peter "Denied" Christ on the very same night.

That should not need to be explained. One repented and was restored, one didnt and he killed himself.

 

[mailmandan]

So, he followed Jesus for three and half years and was promoted to an apostle because he didn’t believe in Him?

Although Judas followed Jesus externally and participated in ministry activities, his heart was never transformed. He represents those who are near to Jesus but never truly belonged to Him.

Luke 22:3-4 - “Then Satan entered Judas…” The indwelling of Satan is never recorded of any true believer.

John 6:64, 70-71 - “But there are some of you who do not believe, and Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. ‘Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?’”

John 12:6 - Judas was a thief, and he didn’t care for the poor, showing ongoing sinful behavior without evidence of regeneration.

John 13:10-11 - Judas was unclean, unlike the other 11 disciples.

Acts 1:25 - Judas went “to his own place,” a phrase commonly understood to refer to hell or eternal judgment.

Bro, that makes zero sense.

It makes perfect sense. (Matthew 13:24-30; John 6:64-66; 2 Corinthians 11:13-15, 26; Galatians 2:4)

Judas didn’t believe to the end.

Judas didn't believe unto salvation. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)

Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
1 Corinthians 15:1-2

Those who don’t believe to the end, their believing in which they did at the beginning to saved, was done in vain.

1 Corinthians 15:1,2 - Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast (demonstrative evidence of faith being firmly rooted and established) that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.

To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose. If as some are saying in Corinth, there is no resurrection, then faith is vain and worthless (vs. 14). The people who fail to hold fast to the word (the gospel) that Paul preached in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, demonstrated that they "believed in vain" (did not truly believe unto salvation in the first place).

But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
Matthew 24:13

The one who endures to the end is the same one who is saved. Perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.

This is what the parable of the Sower teaches about persecution and falling away.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

• which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Unlike saving belief, shallow, temporary belief that has no root and produces no fruit is not rooted in a regenerate heart. How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, (Luke 8:6, 13) represent saving belief? It doesn't so there is no loss of salvation here. Only a failure to receive it. Also, the same Greek word for believe "pisteuo" is used in James 2:19, in which we read that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved.

John has portrayed people who "believe" (at least to some extent) but are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of firmly rooted and established belief resulting in salvation." As we see in John 2:23-25, in which their belief was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them.

Also, in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. We can see at best, these Jews believed in Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, yet upon gaining further knowledge about Jesus through His words, we see they did not believe unto salvation and become children of God (John 1:12; 3:18) but were instead children of the devil.

IN CONTRAST TO - Mark 4:8 - But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred. Luke 8:15 says, But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. *Only the 4th soil produced crops of any size and was referred to as "good ground" and produced a crop (fruit). Faith without works is dead, remember?

In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.
1 Peter 1:6-9

• receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works. Genuine believers are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Peter 1:5)

 

[JLB]

Luke 22:3-4 - “Then Satan entered Judas…” The indwelling of Satan is never recorded of any true believer.

Satan entered Judas because of his sin of stealing.

Satan has a right to influence any born again Christian who sins.

We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. 1 John 5:18

 

[mailmandan]

Satan entered Judas because of his sin of stealing.

Satan has a right to influence any born again Christian who sins.

We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. 1 John 5:18

Influence is one thing and enter is another. 1 John 5:18 proves my point about Judas. Also see 1 (John 3:7-10).

 

[onlysaved]

Satan entered Judas because of his sin of stealing.

Satan has a right to influence any born again Christian who sins.

We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. 1 John 5:18

If a man says he is without sin he is a liar and the truth is not in him.

I tell you this so that you do not sin, but if you do sin, you have an advocate before the Father.

Any "christian" who claims to never sin is a liar and doesn't understand what the depravity of being human is.

If you are a living human being you have, are and will sin.

 

[JLB]

Influence is one thing and enter is another. 1 John 5:18 proves my point about Judas. Also see 1 (John 3:7-10).

The enemy influences because he enters.

Sin opens the door.

So the LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.”
Genesis 4:6-7

 

[JLB]

Any "christian" who claims to never sin is a liar

I agree.

 

[JLB]

Any "christian" who claims to never sin is a liar and doesn't understand what the depravity of being human is.

Please post some scriptures that teach us about the depravity of being human so we can all understand and be on the same page.

 

[JLB]

If you are a living human being you have, are and will sin.

Pretty vague.

You seem to lump every human being into one group?

Why?

There are unregenerate human beings.

There are born again Christians, who are babes.

There are born again Christians who are adolescents.

There are born again Christians who are mature.

There are born again Christians who have the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

There are born again Christians who have the baptism with the Spirit but are immature.


Then they are born again Christians who have the baptism with the Holy Spirit who actually walk according to the Spirit and have crucified themselves by the Spirit.


Which particular group are you saying are depraved?

 

[GodsGrace]

Although Judas followed Jesus externally and participated in ministry activities, his heart was never transformed. He represents those who are near to Jesus but never truly belonged to Him.

Very interesting.....
But you've been stating that it is our OUTWARD actions that show our heart.
You claim James 2:24 is referring to what can be seen by men...
that those that ARE SAVED will show good deeds.

So, by that reasoning, Judas was indeed saved because his outward actions...good deeds for Jesus...
evidenced that he was saved.

Can't have it both ways.

Incorrect theology is always exposed sooner or later.

Luke 22:3-4 - “Then Satan entered Judas…” The indwelling of Satan is never recorded of any true believer.

John 6:64, 70-71 - “But there are some of you who do not believe, and Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. ‘Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?’”

John 12:6 - Judas was a thief, and he didn’t care for the poor, showing ongoing sinful behavior without evidence of regeneration.

John 13:10-11 - Judas was unclean, unlike the other 11 disciples.

Acts 1:25 - Judas went “to his own place,” a phrase commonly understood to refer to hell or eternal judgment.

It makes perfect sense. (Matthew 13:24-30; John 6:64-66; 2 Corinthians 11:13-15, 26; Galatians 2:4)

Judas didn't believe unto salvation. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)

1 Corinthians 15:1,2 - Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast (demonstrative evidence of faith being firmly rooted and established) that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.

To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose. If as some are saying in Corinth, there is no resurrection, then faith is vain and worthless (vs. 14). The people who fail to hold fast to the word (the gospel) that Paul preached in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, demonstrated that they "believed in vain" (did not truly believe unto salvation in the first place).

The one who endures to the end is the same one who is saved. Perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.

Unlike saving belief, shallow, temporary belief that has no root and produces no fruit is not rooted in a regenerate heart. How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, (Luke 8:6, 13) represent saving belief? It doesn't so there is no loss of salvation here. Only a failure to receive it. Also, the same Greek word for believe "pisteuo" is used in James 2:19, in which we read that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved.

John has portrayed people who "believe" (at least to some extent) but are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of firmly rooted and established belief resulting in salvation." As we see in John 2:23-25, in which their belief was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them.

Also, in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. We can see at best, these Jews believed in Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, yet upon gaining further knowledge about Jesus through His words, we see they did not believe unto salvation and become children of God (John 1:12; 3:18) but were instead children of the devil.

IN CONTRAST TO - Mark 4:8 - But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred. Luke 8:15 says, But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. *Only the 4th soil produced crops of any size and was referred to as "good ground" and produced a crop (fruit). Faith without works is dead, remember?

From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works. Genuine believers are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Peter 1:5)

 

[mailmandan]

The enemy influences because he enters.

Sin opens the door.

So the LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.”
Genesis 4:6-7

Sin lies at the door of people giving into it. Cain, who was of the evil one, demonstrated an evil heart by evil deeds, which includes murdering his brother and while Abel demonstrated a righteous heart by his righteous deeds (1 John 3:12); and that Abel offered his sacrifice by or "out of" faith and Cain did not. Cain's sacrifice was evidence of his lack of faith. Abel's offering was a demonstration of his faith in regard to sacrifice, which was not demonstrated by Cain's offering.