Inherint contradictions teaching Faith Alone

[onlysaved]

Christians are not sinners.

A sinner is a person who is separate from Christ.

For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; Hebrews 7:26

Born again blood washed Christians are saints who are joined to Christ and are one spirit with Him.

But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
1 Corinthians 6:17


so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints. 1 Thessalonians 3:13


Sinner = wicked person
Saint = holy person.

A member on this very forum taught me that we should not call ourselves sinners but children of God.
This does not mean we don't ever sin....but just that we have entered into a different category in relationship to God.


Sinners are not close to God.
Children of God are close to God.


Agreed.
I do believe the NT teaches that we are to ask forgiveness of a known sin.
However, yes, I agree that all sins are forgiven.


Not sure I agree 100%, but it would change the topic at hand.
Just quick...I believe there is a sin that can cause death...death to our relationship to God...
that would be the sin of apostacy...or if we abandon God and cease to follow Him.


Agreed.

You're referring to Romans 7....
Paul is disturbed at this.
But then he goes on to Romans 8....
Jesus has freed us from the law of sin and death.


Agreed.

We surely are not perfect, and will not be as you've stated.
But does God see us as perfect?
I used to believe this many, many years ago, when I had left the CC and joined Protestantism.
I believed that God saw us through Jesus...that Jesus was a covering for us and God saw that and not us because man is truly infected with the sin nature and we will never become sinless.

But I've come to understand our salvation a little differently.
What I stated above would be like covering our dirt with Jesus.
I think God wants us to get rid of the dirt.
I think He sees us as children that sin and has mercy on us.

Thoughts?

I think we agree and at any fine point we might disagree are simply do to my wording of things.
My main thing is that as believers our sins are forgiven and we can better spend our time drawing closer and closer to God. When I sin I tend to beat up on myself, question my own faith and get depressed and doubt my salvation. You know what that is? It's pride in disguise. Deep down the thought eventually comes down to Jesus's work on the cross wasn't good enough. God wants us to focus on Him not our failures.

Paul called himself the foremost sinner..

 

[JLB]

My main thing is that as believers our sins are forgiven and we can better spend our time drawing closer and closer to God.

Yes. Sowing to the Spirit, investing our time and effort toward the things of the Spirit, such as drawing near to God in prayer, private devotion, using our eyes for that which is good such as reading the scriptures and setting our minds on things above.

Amen.


However, if we do sin we need to go to Him and confess our sins so that He will forgive us and cleanse us.

 

[Rodger]

Sorry bro.

No commentary from men.

Scripture says … Noah became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.


Could you explain why you believe Noah was totally depraved when the scripture says he was the heir of the righteousness which is according to faith?

Notice that Noah wasn’t made the heir of the righteousness according to faith alone, but by the obedience of faith.

As it is written… By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household…

Noah operated in the principle of faith; the obedience of faith.


Yet you claim he was totally depraved.

So did Noah get drunk? Yes. Was it wrong? Yes. Does that mean that Noah didn't have faith in God? Not at all.

Brother, I do not claim anything whatsoever. I read what God said, and accept it!

"the righteousness which is by faith" — And entitled to the rewards thereof in a future and eternal world, of which his temporal deliverance, though so amazing, was only an emblem.

In other words, Noah's faith gave him a home in heaven.

“The faith of Noah is proposed for our imitation, to assure us that they who believe and obey God shall be safe in the midst of a fallen world, while the wicked shall be condemned and destroyed.”
Source: Benson Commentary.

You are wanting me to destroy the doctrine of depravity and I can not do that.

 

[Rodger]

I think we agree and at any fine point we might disagree are simply do to my wording of things.
My main thing is that as believers our sins are forgiven and we can better spend our time drawing closer and closer to God. When I sin I tend to beat up on myself, question my own faith and get depressed and doubt my salvation. You know what that is? It's pride in disguise. Deep down the thought eventually comes down to Jesus's work on the cross wasn't good enough. God wants us to focus on Him not our failures.

Paul called himself the foremost sinner..

You said.......
" When I sin I tend to beat up on myself, question my own faith and get depressed and doubt my salvation. You know what that is? "

Yes I do........It is Satan who is oppressing you. He can not "possess" but he does oppress us.

 

[Rodger]

I never asked you about Adam and Eve.

I asked you about Noah.

Do you believe Noah was totally depraved?

The scripture says Noah became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

That doesn’t sound like Noah was totally depraved to me.

Could you explain why you believe Noah was totally depraved when the scripture says he was the heir of the righteousness which is according to faith?

I think that what is causing you problems is because the name “total depravity” is causeing you to have wrong ideas about what is meant.

IMHO, you are equating Total Depravity concerning Noah to those who were in Genesis 6 whoc were continuelly doing evil things.

I think that you need to understand tha Total depravity is a theological term describing humanity’s moral and spiritual condition as a result of the Fall and originated with John Calvin.

It indicates that every part of our nature-mind, will, emotions, and body-has been affected by sin. It does not mean that all people are going around doing evil sins all of the time.
It does not mean every individual is as wicked as possible at all times, but that every individual has the ability to sin because we are all sinners.

Now......Did Noah get drunk and lay around naked?

Paul started in Romans and where the doctrines of grace truly begin.

Brother, do you realize that until we realize what a wretched person we truly are, and what an offense our depravity is in the holy sight of God, we will not can feel nothing in response to the atoning death of God’s Son.

You do not seem to be able to understand that without a quickened awareness of our depravity, we are Pharisees at best, though most of us are far worse. The best we can approach is a religious performance that brings glory to us and leaves us looking down on everybody else, just the way many Christians today look down on the rest of society, the Pharisee gazing down on the abortion doctor and the homosexual.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think we agree and at any fine point we might disagree are simply do to my wording of things.
My main thing is that as believers our sins are forgiven and we can better spend our time drawing closer and closer to God. When I sin I tend to beat up on myself, question my own faith and get depressed and doubt my salvation. You know what that is? It's pride in disguise. Deep down the thought eventually comes down to Jesus's work on the cross wasn't good enough. God wants us to focus on Him not our failures.

Paul called himself the foremost sinner..

In fact, it was JLB that scolded me when I first joined this forum many years ago and I referred to myself as a sinner.
I DO understand the difference and am grateful for this teaching.

It's satan when we feel that we are not forgiven or do not feel good enough.
He loves to make us feel distressed.
But we give the glory to God and not to satan.
We obey God and not the wiles of satan and how he could make us feel in our humanity.

When in doubt,,,,we remember the parable of the Prodigal Son.
His father was waiting for him to return with open arms...
imagine the love of our Father if we never even left, but are in some doubt due to sin.
I like your last line: God wants us to focus on HIM and not on our failures.

We do our best.
Jesus does the rest.

 

[JLB]

Brother, I do not claim anything whatsoever. I read what God said, and accept it!

Here’s what the word of God says.


By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
Hebrews 11:7


You claim is Noah was TOTALLY DEPRAVED!

Why?

 

[JLB]

IMHO, you are equating Total Depravity concerning Noah to those who were in Genesis 6 whoc were continuelly doing evil things.

I haven’t mentioned anyone else except Noah.

 

[onlysaved]

Here’s what the word of God says.


By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
Hebrews 11:7


You claim is Noah was TOTALLY DEPRAVED!

Why?

Because every human being is and why he needed a savior.

 

[JLB]

Because every human being is and why he needed a savior.

Was Noah totally depraved, or was he righteous?

 

[onlysaved]

Was Noah totally depraved, or was he righteous?

Both.

 

[GodsGrace]

JLB

I think we're all speaking past each other regarding depravity.

Depravity means that one is morally corrupt or wicked. This is the definition from a dictionary, which can easily be found on the net.

I'd say that all persons are born depraved and are in need of salvation.
We are born lost/depraved, and must be born again as Jesus stated in John 3:3,5

Noah was a righteous man because He obeyed God.
Same for many, as is taught in the OT.

THIS is not the point at hand regarding depravity.
The point at hand is HOW the reformed/calvinist explain DEPRAVITY.

It would the the T in the acronym TULIP.

Depravity simply means that man is born so depraved as to be UNABLE TO SEEK GOD.

It's the idea that we are unable to seek God that is the point in the term depraved/depravity.
( in reformed theology).

What needs to be done here is not to discuss the word...but to show that MAN IS ABLE TO SEEK GOD.
If we can show that man is able to seek God....then the T in TULIP is debunked.

As, indeed it is, since it is not a biblical teaching.
Man has the ability to seek God.

Matthew 6:33​

But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Hebrews 11:6​

And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

1 Chronicles 16:11​

Seek the Lord and his strength; seek his presence continually!

Proverbs 8:17​

I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.

Jeremiah 29:13​

You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.


There are many more verses, as you know, but the above should suffice to show that Total Depravity cannot be a correct teaching.

The reformed/calvinists take this belief from Romans: THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NO NOT ONE.

This comes, of course, from Psalm 14:1-5 and is speaking about persons that do not believe in God and are FOOLS.

As you've stated....this very statement cannot be true because it would mean that even Noah and Abraham were not righteous.

The idea of depravity,,,,in and of itself,,,is not the point.

 

[JLB]

Both.

This answer pretty much sums up Reformed Theology.

Thank you.

 

[onlysaved]

JLB

I think we're all speaking past each other regarding depravity.

Depravity means that one is morally corrupt or wicked. This is the definition from a dictionary, which can easily be found on the net.

I'd say that all persons are born depraved and are in need of salvation.
We are born lost/depraved, and must be born again as Jesus stated in John 3:3,5

Noah was a righteous man because He obeyed God.
Same for many, as is taught in the OT.

THIS is not the point at hand regarding depravity.
The point at hand is HOW the reformed/calvinist explain DEPRAVITY.

It would the the T in the acronym TULIP.

Depravity simply means that man is born so depraved as to be UNABLE TO SEEK GOD.

It's the idea that we are unable to seek God that is the point in the term depraved/depravity.
( in reformed theology).

What needs to be done here is not to discuss the word...but to show that MAN IS ABLE TO SEEK GOD.
If we can show that man is able to seek God....then the T in TULIP is debunked.

As, indeed it is, since it is not a biblical teaching.
Man has the ability to seek God.

Matthew 6:33​

But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Hebrews 11:6​

And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

1 Chronicles 16:11​

Seek the Lord and his strength; seek his presence continually!

Proverbs 8:17​

I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.

Jeremiah 29:13​

You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.


There are many more verses, as you know, but the above should suffice to show that Total Depravity cannot be a correct teaching.

The reformed/calvinists take this belief from Romans: THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NO NOT ONE.

This comes, of course, from Psalm 14:1-5 and is speaking about persons that do not believe in God and are FOOLS.

As you've stated....this very statement cannot be true because it would mean that even Noah and Abraham were not righteous.

The idea of depravity,,,,in and of itself,,,is not the point.

Depravity =
as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”


We only seek God after a He seeks us out.

"Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me."


We seek God. AFTER God seeks us.

"Utterly worthless"
This is why we have such a desperate need for a savior and to have Him active in our lives daily. The second our eyes come off of Jesus we begin to stray. "The inclination of our hearts is all evil all the time"

The doctrine of total depravity is very well established in both the old and new Testaments.

After spending 3 years with Jesus in intense discipleship Peter turned away from Jesus at the very first sign of his own peril in being associated with Jesus, an accusation from a little girl made him turn tail and run.
After seeing all the miracles for 3 years of intimate ministry together.
This is the saddest part of the new Testament so even though it's not relevant to our discussion I have to quote what Jesus said to Mary M.. Go tell the disciples. AND Peter!

"And Peter" those have to be the most hope filled words in the NT.

Yes, without Jesus active in our lives we are "altogether worthless" aka utterly depraved "for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.


when you do something good. It's not you doing it but God doing it through you.

Again, utterly worthless,

 

[JLB]

Noah was a righteous man because He obeyed God.
Same for many, as is taught in the OT.

Noah is the pattern for us today, the heir as it says of the righteousness which is according to faith.

What does that mean for us today?

The man who would be the bloodline genealogy of mankind was declared to be righteous according to the righteousness of faith, being the pattern for what God considers righteous.

The same can be said for Abraham.

And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” Galatians 3:8

Abraham obeyed and was justified, the only way anyone is justified, the only way Gentiles are justified, is by the obedience of faith.

Doing what God says not just hearing.

We are saved by obeying the Gospel, as Abraham was.

Abraham repented; he turned away from his old life and turned to the Lord in submission to Him, and followed Him.

Follow is just another way of saying obeyed.


And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”
Genesis 26:4-5

• because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”

 

[mailmandan]

Noah is the pattern for us today, the heir as it says of the righteousness which is according to faith.

What does that mean for us today?

The man who would be the bloodline genealogy of mankind was declared to be righteous according to the righteousness of faith, being the pattern for what God considers righteous.

The same can be said for Abraham.

And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” Galatians 3:8

Abraham obeyed and was justified, the only way anyone is justified, the only way Gentiles are justified, is by the obedience of faith.

Doing what God says not just hearing.

We are saved by obeying the Gospel, as Abraham was.

Abraham repented; he turned away from his old life and turned to the Lord in submission to Him, and followed Him.

Follow is just another way of saying obeyed.

And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”
Genesis 26:4-5

• because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”

Your theory on the obedience of faith culminates in salvation by works. Your cart before the horse theology disregards (Genesis 15:6; Romans 1:16; 4:2-6; 5:1; 10:16).

 

[JLB]

Depravity simply means that man is born so depraved as to be UNABLE TO SEEK GOD.

Here is the definition from a Calvinist -

Total depravity is a phrase that we commonly use to encapsulate the Bible’s doctrine of sin because it fits with other phrases to make a nice acrostic that summarizes the Reformed teaching on salvation. We are talking, of course, about TULIP, which stands for total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, and the perseverance of the saints.

While this acrostic helpfully encapsulates certain truths, many theologians have expressed reservations regarding TULIP because the phrases can be misunderstood. For instance, total depravity might suggest that people are as bad as they can possibly be, that they are totally destitute of any goodness whatsoever or cannot do anything that in any sense can be called good. Certainly, it is true that apart from grace we cannot do good in the sense of what is fully pleasing to God. Paul makes that quite clear in Romans 1:18–3:20. However, in the same passage, Paul also tells us that people also sometimes do what the law of God requires in an external sense. That is, sinners are capable of an outward conformity to God’s statutes. They can treat people kindly, love their children, be good neighbors, and so on. But apart from divine grace, they do not do these things out of a heartfelt desire to love God with their entire being. The good they do outwardly is not matched by what is truly good inwardly.

Since fallen people are still capable of doing good in an outward sense, we are not as bad as we could possibly be. The worst criminal in history could have been worse. Scripture tells us this in many ways. For example, in today’s passage, Jesus says that even we who are evil still know how to give good gifts to our children and that it is right for us to do so (Luke 11:11–13). As sinful as we are, we could still be destitute of all affection for other people. We could still live under no restraints of conscience whatsoever.

Total depravity is not utter depravity, which would mean that we always sin to the greatest extent possible in whatever we do. We are not as wicked as we could be, for God’s law is on our consciences and it holds back even the worst of us from descending into the vilest actions in every circumstance (Rom. 2:12–16). Nevertheless, total depravity means we are as bad off as we could be, for it means that we are at enmity with God. Because sin taints everything we do and are, we have fallen short of the glory of God and cannot merit eternal life (3:23). We are cut off from the Lord and cannot save ourselves.


While this acrostic helpfully encapsulates certain truths, many theologians have expressed reservations regarding TULIP because the phrases can be misunderstood.

Key reasons for misunderstanding:

• For instance, total depravity might suggest that people are as bad as they can possibly be, that they are totally destitute of any goodness whatsoever

• Paul also tells us that people also sometimes do what the law of God requires in an external sense. That is, sinners are capable of an outward conformity to God’s statutes. They can treat people kindly, love their children, be good neighbors, and so on.

• Nevertheless, total depravity means we are as bad off as we could be

• Total depravity is not utter depravity.

Utterly and Totally are synonymous and mean the same thing.


Just a bunch of confusing word salad, with no real substance.


At the end of the day, Reformed Theology, Calvinism or TULIP is just a doctrine of man, with made made words, and man made definitions, meant to be confusing so the people who are truly hungry to know the truth must refer to a so called “teacher” of Calvinism to explain what all these confusing man made terms mean.

SO THAT, the people will become totally dependent on the “teachers” of Calvinism rather than read the Bible for themselves and ask for the Holy Spirit to lead them and guide them into the truth.

This is exactly what the Scribes and Pharisee’s were doing when Jesus came on the scene.


He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition (teaching).
Mark 7:9


making the word of God of no effect through your tradition (teaching) which you have handed down. And many such things you do. Mark 7:13

 

[JLB]

Your theory on the obedience of faith culminates in salvation by works.

So if a person obeys the Gospel of Jesus Christ, they are being saved by their works?


For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 1 Peter 4:17


What will be then end of those who don’t obey the Gospel?


Paul makes it clear -

in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thessalonians 1:8


I reject your foolish nonsense and choose to obey what the Holy Spirit teaches us through the scriptures.

 

[Rodger]

I haven’t mentioned anyone else except Noah.

Then....my advice would be to be very, very carful on placeing all your apples in one basket. If what you believe was true, then it seems to me that there would be a lot of Scriptures on this important topic.

I say that because there are any more Scriptures on inherited original sin than there are on Noah not being depraved.

I would also remind you that there was one thing that didn’t drown in the Flood and that was sin. Sin was riding in the ark, in the nature of Noah, his wife, Shem, Ham, and Japheth and their three wives. And sin survived the Flood in them. It was a new earth, but it was the same old humanity.
That FACT obviousely means that Noah was affected by original sin so that he too was Depraved. Not to the extent of all the one who rejected his preaching, but none the less depraved.

When they walked off the ark, sin walked off the ark; and when they stepped into the new world, sin stepped into the new world with them, in them.

So we learn that what the Bible says is true: sin reigned from Adam, that once Adam sinned, sin became the sovereign of human life; it became the monarch of humanity and carries its potent poison into all peoples and families of the world. And the judgment that God brought about on the face of the earth when He drowned all humanity didn’t drown sin.

However.....that is just me and you are of course free to ignore me.

 

[Rodger]

Here’s what the word of God says.


By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
Hebrews 11:7


You claim is Noah was TOTALLY DEPRAVED!

Why?

That is the 5th time you have used Hebrews 11:7.

I feel bad for you in that you seem unable to understand what that verse actually says......instead of forcing it to say what you want it to say.

"and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith".............
not of the law, but of the righteousness of Christ, and of eternal life through that; for he was not only heir of this world, as Abraham, but of that which is to come; and not through works of righteousness done by him, but through the righteousness of Christ received by faith, or through faith in Christ, the antitype of the ark.

That means he was saved and went to heaven because of his faith and it has NOTHING to do with depravity.

The Bible fact is that Noah was a sinner. By faith he believed God and obeyed God.

Romans 3:23........"ALL have sinned and come short of the Glory of God".