Sinless To Be Saved

You are not listening GodsGrace. Yes--Yes--he says "they which have believed" should be careful to "maintain good works". But the verses preceding that tell you you are NOT SAVED BY GOOD WORKS. You are "saved by Grace through faith". The verses say we are saved "NOT by any righteous works we have done, but by God's mercy". You refuse to read that and accept it. SALVATION HAS A RESULT: Good works! That's what James means when he says "faith without works is dead". He is saying---you can "say" you are SAVED. But if you are truly SAVED your good works will show it!!! Once again---we are not saved BY Good works---we are saved UNTO good works. That is what Ephesians 2 and Titus 3 are teaching! Read them again.
I've already said, more than once, that I'm speaking of AFTER salvation.
I don't know any Christian that believes we can be saved by good works.
We are saved BY FAITH.

The good works that Jesus taught we are to do come AFTER salvation.

Persons NOT saved are NOT required to obey God.

And no,,,James is saying this:
FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.

You're adding to what he's teaching.

Your FAITH
without works
is DEAD.

IOW,,,without works there is NO FAITH because it is DEAD.
 
It is taught throughout the NT. It is the only true gospel.

Faith ALONE is taught nowhere in the gospels.
It's a new idea that came about at the Reformation.

The only time faith alone is mentioned in the NT is in a negative way.

James mentioned faith alone....
that it is NOT sufficient.

James 2:24
24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Why?
Because faith alone is a dead faith:
James 2:17
17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

Faith, without works, is dead.
If I say to someone, go in peace, but do not provide food...
my faith ALONE is not what Jesus taught.
Faith without good works is a dead faith.
It is taught throughout the NT. It is the only true gospel.


Not for salvation--that would be the false gospel Paul warns about in Gal. 1.


Yes, but not for salvation. Jesus said many things, including:

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (ESV)

Joh 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. (ESV)

Joh 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” (ESV)

Joh 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,
Joh 11:26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?” (ESV)

That is, salvation is by faith alone.

Not for salvation--that would be the false gospel Paul warns about in Gal. 1.
So you're agreeing that obedience is not necessary?

I said: WE MUST OBEY GOD.

You said: NOT FOR SALVATION.

So, IOW....we can be saved but not have to obey God?

Again...you put forth a strawman argument.

Again....UNSAVED persons are not required to obey §God.
SAVED persons are required to obey God.

So why make the statement that obedience is not necessary for salvation?
FOR salvation obedience is NOT necessary.

AFTER salvation, obedience IS necessary.

Do we not pay attention to and heed verses such as:

John 3.36
36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 14:15
15“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
Acts 5:29
29But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men.
1 Peter 1:14
14As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance,
1 John 5:3
3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.



There are many more...
How many are necessary?
Do we Christians really want to teach that obedience to God does NOT keep us saved?
Does disobedience keep us saved?

Jesus taught that the foolish man did NOT ACT on the words of Jesus and his house was washed away.
Matthew 7:24....
Yes, but not for salvation. Jesus said many things, including:

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (ESV)

Joh 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. (ESV)

Joh 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” (ESV)

Joh 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,
Joh 11:26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?” (ESV)

That is, salvation is by faith alone.
Jesus taught that IF we believe in Him we will have eternal life.

How does any one of your above verses negate obedience to God?

None of the verses you've posted teach that obedience is not necessary.

If you check, you'll find that each verse states that we are to BELIEVE in Jesus.

What does BELIEVE mean in the Greek language that was used to write the NT?
 
Yes, all believers have been saved through faith in Jesus (Hebrews 11). The Old Testament believers trusted in the coming of Jesus (the Messiah) in the future (Genesis 3:15, the curse given to Satan), "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.” That promise was passed down through the generations from Adam and Eve's fall. The line of Cain rejected it, while the line of Seth embraced it until they became corrupted by intermarrying with Cain's descendants (Genesis 6:1-2) except for Noah.

Gen 6:1 When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them,
Gen 6:2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose.

However, God's promise made them all accountable to him in addition to the fact that he reveals himself in his creation as their Creator (Romans 1:18-20).

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
not faith alone!

the words of the Savior! mt 7:7 ask and you shall receive!
 
"whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all."
does not refer to the 600 plus laws but only to the two greatest commandments
mt 22:37-40
Where on earth did you come up with THAT????

All Means ALL and that is all that it means. While those are the 2 greatest, they are NOT ALL. Of course it means all 613 contained in the Torah PLUS the rest of the OT commands. (there are a LOT more than just the 613)
 
I'm not playing verse ping-pong at all. You believe that your good works will get you into Heaven. You believe that God will basically look at the scales and if you have done more good than bad you will go to Heaven. But the Bible does not teach that. The thief on the cross had no time to do any "good". He, along with the other thief at first mocked Jesus. But then in Luke it says he "saw" something. He studied Jesus and saw that He had done NO WRONG. He UNDERSTOOD and BELIEVED. He asked if Jesus would not forget him when he came into his Kingdom. He DID NOT EXPECT TO BE IN PARADISE THAT VERY DAY. But Jesus honored the man's faith and trust in Him.

Once again:
"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:14,15)

Compare with:
"And the Lord said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looks upon it, shall live.
And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived". (Numbers 21: 8,9)

Read these two examples carefully. You will see that the people involved DO NOTHING but look and believe, just like the thief on the cross. The people who were bit "beheld" the serpent of brass and lived! They didn't do some "good work" first---they beheld and believed. Jesus states the same in John 3:14,15. When we believe in Jesus and what he did on the cross for us we are saved. We are saved "UNTO" GOOD WORKS----NOT "BY" OUR WORKS.

If you would seriously read these verses GodsGrace, along with Ephesians 2: 8-10 as I, and many others have quoted to you, you would see that we are saved by faith---not by our works. Our salvation LEADS TO good works---just as when Abraham FIRST BELIEVED he was led to "good works" in his willingness to sacrifice Isaac. Abraham believed and it was accounted onto him as righteousness. The RESULT of that belief LED to his good works. Don't you understand?
the requirement of faith does not exclude works

phil 1:29
 
It's their faith that saved them. Paul even tells us this plainly about Abraham, in Romans 4. You'll probably also want to read Hebrews 11. Faith comes first and action is on the basis of that faith.


Did the thief get down and get baptised, then get back up on the cross to die? Did he come off the cross and quickly go do some charitable work first?

How in the world do you think that saying a humble prayer is opposed to faith alone? How else does one express their initial faith other than speaking?

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. (ESV)


Of course! That is the only way anyone is saved--by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.


What do these have to do with anything? You really, really do not understand what is meant by faith alone. How can that still be, as you have had it explained to you numerous times?
then its not "faith alone"

faith plus repentance
faith plus penance
faith plus suffering
faith plus virtues (humility)
1 or 13:13 faith hope and charity

etc

the theif baptism? not required till the new covenant
heb 9:16-17
how convenient I know
 
So what then does it take to keep our salvation? if not faith alone then do our works make us saved or keep our salvation? Yes our works are indeed part of it as good works are the fruits of the spirit it comes naturally to the regenreated person but it is not what keeps our salvation right?
What does the bible say about that?
and virtue 1 cor 13:13 faith hope and charity

Matthew 11:29
Take my yoke upon you, and learn ofme; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. (salvation)

Jude 21
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

to say in pride and presumption "I cannot be lost or damned" causes us to be lost and damned!
 
You don't even read the verses that teach you are "saved by Grace through faith". YES----There are a lot of things Jesus said to DO. But NONE OF THOSE THINGS SAVE YOU. You are saved TO DO THOSE THINGS!! That's what I have (and many others) been trying to explain to you through Scripture.

I'll give you another set of scriptures:

"But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
NOT by works of righteousness WHICH WE HAVE DONE, but ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY HE SAVED US, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
That being JUSTIFIED BY HIS GRACE, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men." (Titus 3: 4-8)

NOTE VERSE 8: "THEY WHICH HAVE BELIEVED IN GOD MIGHT BE CAREFUL TO MAINTAIN GOOD WORKS". It DOES NOT say anything about being saved by good works----it says that those WHO ARE SAVED should be careful to MAINTAIN good works.

You refuse to see this. You can put (50) more verses up about what we are supposed to DO as Christians and I will totally agree with you----but we don't DO these things TO BE SAVED!! We do them BECAUSE we are ALREADY SAVED!!
it says being damned by sin
gal 5 and eph 5

gal 5:19:21

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

even those who think they are saved by faith alone!
 
Yes there is a difference between a Christian by heart and a Christian by title
it is shocking to me that anyone would say they can still be how they once were and be a Christian do they even know what being born again is I wonder?
how does it remove free will
yes a new heart in the baptism / born again grace but still not restored to the state of perfection until we are glorified

must to abide in Christ and bear fruit in Love Jn 15:4 Jude 1:21
endure to the end mk 13:13 mt 10:22 mt 24:13
 
I believe that if one is saved they naturally want to obey God and the works will naturally come forth otherwise one is not even changed and that change comes with salvation the new man the born again so if one says they casn sin and still be saved they are not changed.

That change is vital otherwise your a Christian by title only
we are justified not saved!
 
Anyone trying to be justified by works is obligated to obey the whole law and if you break one law one time you're condemned without the possibility of redemption.

You cannot read the book of Romans and come to any other conclusion.

If you believe your works play any part of salvation you are apostate..

Furthermore the reformation came about as the result of people reading and studying the Bible on their own coming to the conclusion that what was being taught to them was in opposition to what God says in both the old and new Testaments.
They were being taught lies based on human arguments and traditions not on God's word.

1. The infalliblity of any church leader save Christ

2. That we have any intermediary other than Christ


You're relationship with God is with God alone just as it has been from creation.

Human traditions are altogether worthless.. The ONLY way to know God is through God's word.

Jesus said. "I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me"
"The only" all other authority in your life is secondary at best.

Anyone claiming to between you and God is an obstacle not an help.
 
Yes there is a difference between a Christian by heart and a Christian by title
it is shocking to me that anyone would say they can still be how they once were and be a Christian do they even know what being born again is I wonder?
how does it remove free will
yes a new heart in the baptism / born again grace but still not restored to the state of perfection until we are glorified

must to abide in Christ and bear fruit in Love Jn 15:4 Jude
You are not listening GodsGrace. Yes--Yes--he says "they which have believed" should be careful to "maintain good works". But the verses preceding that tell you you are NOT SAVED BY GOOD WORKS. You are "saved by Grace through faith". The verses say we are saved "NOT by any righteous works we have done, but by God's mercy". You refuse to read that and accept it. SALVATION HAS A RESULT: Good works! That's what James means when he says "faith without works is dead". He is saying---you can "say" you are SAVED. But if you are truly SAVED your good works will show it!!! Once again---we are not saved BY Good works---we are saved UNTO good works. That is what Ephesians 2 and Titus 3 are teaching! Read them again.
show me "faith alone" in these verses?

Matthew 11:29
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

Matthew 11:12
And from the days of John theBaptist until now the kingdom ofheaven suffereth violence, and theviolent take it by force.

1 Peter 4:18
And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

thks
 
Blain---Yes---that is exactly what James is teaching. "Faith without works is dead". James is NOT teaching that one is saved by their works. He is teaching that the TRULY SAVED person will SHOW FORTH GOOD WORKS----if not, he is not really a Christian at all.

HOWEVER, What GodsGrace is teaching is that one is saved by doing good. No--the Bible does not teach that. Ephesians and Titus teach us that our works do not SAVE us---it is all of Grace and Mercy. To teach otherwise is to teach a false Gospel. We are SAVED UNTO GOOD WORKS----not BY OUR WORKS.
mt 25:31-47

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
 
Faith ALONE is taught nowhere in the gospels.
I gave several passages where Jesus himself teaches faith alone. We could look at what the writers themselves say, such as here:

Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. (ESV)

He is repeating exactly what Jesus taught--salvation is found in believing in the name of Jesus.

It's a new idea that came about at the Reformation.
They simply restored the biblical gospel, rather than the false gospel of works.

The only time faith alone is mentioned in the NT is in a negative way.

James mentioned faith alone....
that it is NOT sufficient.

James 2:24
24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
Why?
Because faith alone is a dead faith:
James 2:17
17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

Faith, without works, is dead.
If I say to someone, go in peace, but do not provide food...
my faith ALONE is not what Jesus taught.
Faith without good works is a dead faith.
You seem to be using an argument from Catholicism, but it's based on a fundamental misunderstanding of what "faith alone" means, and what Protestants (really, the Bible) mean by "justification." In doing so, you have twisted James's words to mean something difference than what he is saying.

James is saying the very same thing I and others have been saying: works are the evidence of having been justified.

So you're agreeing that obedience is not necessary?

I said: WE MUST OBEY GOD.

You said: NOT FOR SALVATION.

So, IOW....we can be saved but not have to obey God?
There is simply no way to take what I have said and understand it as me saying that "we can be saved but not have to obey God." That's taking what I have said completely out of context, just as you have done with James 2. I have repeatedly stated, as have others, that obedience is evidence of having been saved (justified). That means that if someone believes that "we can be saved but not have to obey God," then they are not saved.

Again...you put forth a strawman argument.

Again....UNSAVED persons are not required to obey §God.
SAVED persons are required to obey God.
Again, I have repeatedly stated such. So, where is the straw man?

So why make the statement that obedience is not necessary for salvation?
FOR salvation obedience is NOT necessary.
There you have it. You're contradicting yourself. You say, "FOR salvation obedience is NOT necessary." But look at what you just posted above:

"I said: WE MUST OBEY GOD.

You said: NOT FOR SALVATION.

So, IOW....we can be saved but not have to obey God?"

But you said the exact same thing! So, why is it that when I say obedience isn't necessary for salvation you take it to mean that I am saying "we can be saved but not have to obey God," but when you say obedience isn't necessary for salvation, you're correct? lol

AFTER salvation, obedience IS necessary.
Not for salvation. We obey because that is what our hearts desire, which is the very evidence we are saved (justified).

Do we not pay attention to and heed verses such as:

John 3.36
36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 14:15

15“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
Acts 5:29
29But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men.
1 Peter 1:14
14As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance,
1 John 5:3
3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.
Exactly what I have been saying! "If you love me." Our obedience comes out of love for Christ and is the evidence we love him.

Do we Christians really want to teach that obedience to God does NOT keep us saved?
Yes! If our obedience keeps us saved, that is no different than saying our obedience saves. It is works salvation and Paul says that anyone who teaches that works are necessary for salvation is to be considered accursed.

Does disobedience keep us saved?
The question is: does disobedience cause us to lose our salvation?

Jesus taught that the foolish man did NOT ACT on the words of Jesus and his house was washed away.
Matthew 7:24....

Jesus taught that IF we believe in Him we will have eternal life.
Exactly! "If we believe in him"--faith alone.

How does any one of your above verses negate obedience to God?

None of the verses you've posted teach that obedience is not necessary.

If you check, you'll find that each verse states that we are to BELIEVE in Jesus.

What does BELIEVE mean in the Greek language that was used to write the NT?
All those verses clearly teach faith alone for salvation. In no way whatsoever am I saying that "obedience is not necessary" after we are saved, but again, obedience is not required to "keep us saved." You have completely misunderstood and twisted what I have said, likely because you're believing what Catholics think Protestants believe.
 
then its not "faith alone"

faith plus repentance
faith plus penance
faith plus suffering
faith plus virtues (humility)
1 or 13:13 faith hope and charity

etc
It is faith alone. Justification, the initial point of salvation, is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (ESV)

2Ti 1:9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, (ESV)

Tit 3:4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,
Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
Tit 3:6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Tit 3:7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Tit 3:8 The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people. (ESV)

No works save. We obey and do good works because we are saved, not to save. Justification by faith is opposed to justification by works. That is the absolutely clear teaching of Scripture.

the theif baptism? not required till the new covenant
heb 9:16-17
how convenient I know
So, then you're saying he needed to follow the Law. Did he do that?

we are justified not saved!
Justification is the initial point of salvation. It is "to be declared righteous." Are sinners righteous?
 
how does it remove free will
yes a new heart in the baptism / born again grace but still not restored to the state of perfection until we are glorified

must to abide in Christ and bear fruit in Love Jn 15:4 Jude

show me "faith alone" in these verses?

thks

We have! A great many times... you choose not to believe it.
 
To WHAT EXTENT does God choose who will be saved???

He either chooses or He does not.
All! God desires not the death of the sinner but the he repents and is converted and the angels rejoice! paraphrasing of course

Lk 2:10-11
Lk 2:30-31
Jn 1:29
Jn 3:16
all people ! new covenant is universal (Catholic)

but grace is resistible!

we must choose and obey abide and endure to the end!

Amen
 
Where on earth did you come up with THAT????

All Means ALL and that is all that it means. While those are the 2 greatest, they are NOT ALL. Of course it means all 613 contained in the Torah PLUS the rest of the OT commands. (there are a LOT more than just the 613)
in that chapter vs 8
If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well
 
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