because you said something does not mean you were right
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join Hidden in Him and For His Glory for discussions on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/become-a-vessel-of-honor-part-2.112306/
The Jehovah’s Witnesses Teach Jesus is Mighty God
- Thread starter SolaScriptura
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- Apr 2, 2003
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And if you were to say I am not right doesn't mean I'm wrong. You need to learn to actually engage critically with what others post and give evidence for why you believe something is incorrect. I can guarantee you that the NWT is wrong on John 1:1, as it is elsewhere.
when the world says its one way of which Satan is known to have influence, then its time to wonder, what way would satan want things to go . and sorry but the trinity is a big one for misleading the peoples of the earth . if the bible came right out and said it that would be a different thing . but it does not do that which means its guessed at . please consider 1 Corinthians 15:24
New King James Version
''Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.''
why would he do that unless his God is greater than himself?
Luke 4:8
King James Bible
''And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.''
then we have to wonder why would Jesus direct all worship to THE God but secretly keeping some of it for himself . that spells description. of which is not even possible. sooo then next thing is to realize is that there is a problem with the understanding of who really is Jesus is . its been stated many ,many times ,Jesus is the SON of God, nothing more nothing less.
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Proof-texting will almost always lead to error, as it does here. There is a vast amount that must be taken into account, not just a couple of verses. As I have pointed out time and again, John 1:1-3, 14, 5:18, 8:58, 10:33, 20:28, 1 Cor. 8:6, Phil. 2:5-8, Col. 1:15-17, and Heb. 1:2-3, 10-12 are key.
ah but what happens when the same set of scriptures are used to prove the opposite to the point you are trying to make . John 1:1-3 John 1:1-3 introduces the concept of the Word (Logos) and its relationship to God and creation. It establishes that the Word was with God from the beginning of creation and that through the Word, all things were made.
john 5:18'' For this reason the Jews tried all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the sabbath but he also called God his own father, making himself equal to God.''
it's not that he was/is equal .
it was in their ''perception '', even ignorance of who he proved to be .
- Apr 2, 2003
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No, it establishes that before the beginning began, the Word was already in existence. That is timeless existence; that is why John can confidently say, “without him was not any thing made that was made” (John 1:3b, ESV). If the Word had been made, then that claim is false.
It wasn’t their perception, it is John’s claim. John is the one who is saying that Jesus’s claim to be the Son of the Father was to make himself equal with God. And that is perfectly consistent with all that he has stated in 1:1-18, and is consistent through to the end of his gospel.
please don't put the cart before the horse . it obvious in the reading that the son was something God did cause into being by his own self , completely by him self. after that came the things God wanted done . that's where the son of God steps in to make the things happen the father wanted done .
its the chicken or the egg thing ,ya cant get an egg till you have a chicken . God could not start creating until he had a work force .which by the way is the WORD/Jesus . Shalom
its the chicken or the egg thing ,ya cant get an egg till you have a chicken . God could not start creating until he had a work force .which by the way is the WORD/Jesus . Shalom
- Apr 2, 2003
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You have a very weak god, if he "could not start creating until he had a work force." That means he is not omnipotent and he cannot be the God of the Bible.
Perhaps you should learn to read the Bible more thoroughly:
Job 9:8 who alone stretched out the heavens and trampled the waves of the sea; (ESV)
Psa 33:6 By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, and by the breath of his mouth all their host. (ESV)
Isa 43:10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me. (ESV)
Isa 44:24 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: "I am the LORD, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself, (ESV)
It cannot be more clear that God alone created everything that ever came into being. It also cannot be more clear that he is the only God, and that there never would be a god.
You even stated: "God could not start creating until he had a work force .which by the way is the WORD/Jesus." But, what does the NWT say, in Isaiah 44:24?
This is what Jehovah says, your Repurchaser,
Who formed you since you were in the womb:
“I am Jehovah, who made everything.
I stretched out the heavens by myself,
And I spread out the earth.
Who was with me? (NWT)
So, there is a contradiction with what you believe and what the NWT states. But, more than that, we see yet another contradiction in the NWT, which also says in John 1:3:
All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. (NWT)
Not only does that preclude the Word from having ever been created, it totally contradicts what Yahweh himself says. And, as I have pointed out previously, both of those passages contradict the NWT in Col. 1:16-17, where they have purposely and deceptively inserted "other" four times into the English text to change the meaning of what Paul wrote:
because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist, (NWT)
But, as I pointed out before, "other" is not in the Greek, as even The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures proves.
The Watchtower has changed things so much, they don't even realize when they're contradicting themselves. The sooner you start to realize just how much The Watchtower has led you astray, the better. Your salvation is at stake here.
please don't dig a hole so deep you can't get out of it. Jesus is a created being ,the very first of all creative works . and done so with a purpose. did you happen to notice God only created one son? Proverbs 8 :30
Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman;
And I was daily His delight,
Rejoicing always before Him,''
what does a master craftsman do but fashion the things he has been assigned to accomplish.
Colossians 1
15 ''He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. ''
I noted you used many scriptures from long before the WORD/Jesus was known . he, at that point in time was the sacred secret that would not be reveled until Jesus presented him self revealing all things .
Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman;
And I was daily His delight,
Rejoicing always before Him,''
what does a master craftsman do but fashion the things he has been assigned to accomplish.
Colossians 1
15 ''He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. ''
I noted you used many scriptures from long before the WORD/Jesus was known . he, at that point in time was the sacred secret that would not be reveled until Jesus presented him self revealing all things .
That's what happens when one is far from the truth. Their ideas become shaky, wobbly, inconsistent.
Unitarianism melts down under scrutiny.
Is Jesus the Word of God? YES or NO??
Is Jesus the Son of God? YES or NO??
WHY do you believe "1 Person 1 God" is preferable to "3 Persons 1 God"?
- Apr 2, 2003
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locust
I need to point out what you're doing, because this is with nearly every response you make: you avoid answering my arguments and points, and instead just try and pit Scripture against itself by repeating arguments that have already been refuted.
You ignored my whole post and the very clear contradictions between what you believe, which is what The Watchtower teaches, and the NWT, as well as the contradictions within the NWT. This is not the first time you have completely ignored those contradictions.
You need to address them; you need to address the arguments and points I have made about the NWT, never mind the numerous verses I have given to support what I say. It is very dishonest of you to ignore everything I (and others) write, and then write things such as "please don't dig a hole so deep you can't get out of it. Jesus is a created being."
Verses 16 and 17 are irrefutable proof that the Son has always existed. The idea that he was created is precluded by this passage, which is in perfect agreement with John 1:3 and 1 Cor. 8:6. This is basic logic and reasoning. If "all things were created" by the Son, then it is logically impossible for him to have been created. If the Son was created, then it is false that "all things were created by the Son, since the Son did not create himself.
Again, at least the NWT was honest about the difficulty of these two verses for Watchtower theology. The NWT translators falsely inserted "other" in those, four times, to make them say something other than what they plainly say. However, that is very dishonest, as it leads people astray from what the Greek actually says. And, it contradicts John 1:3 and 1 Cor. 8:6 in the NWT.
I need to point out what you're doing, because this is with nearly every response you make: you avoid answering my arguments and points, and instead just try and pit Scripture against itself by repeating arguments that have already been refuted.
You ignored my whole post and the very clear contradictions between what you believe, which is what The Watchtower teaches, and the NWT, as well as the contradictions within the NWT. This is not the first time you have completely ignored those contradictions.
You need to address them; you need to address the arguments and points I have made about the NWT, never mind the numerous verses I have given to support what I say. It is very dishonest of you to ignore everything I (and others) write, and then write things such as "please don't dig a hole so deep you can't get out of it. Jesus is a created being."
You should notice that this personification of wisdom is female... It doesn't refer to Jesus.
Even though I have stated this more than once, here it is again (please actually address it this time):
Verses 16 and 17 are irrefutable proof that the Son has always existed. The idea that he was created is precluded by this passage, which is in perfect agreement with John 1:3 and 1 Cor. 8:6. This is basic logic and reasoning. If "all things were created" by the Son, then it is logically impossible for him to have been created. If the Son was created, then it is false that "all things were created by the Son, since the Son did not create himself.
Again, at least the NWT was honest about the difficulty of these two verses for Watchtower theology. The NWT translators falsely inserted "other" in those, four times, to make them say something other than what they plainly say. However, that is very dishonest, as it leads people astray from what the Greek actually says. And, it contradicts John 1:3 and 1 Cor. 8:6 in the NWT.
Which "many scriptures" did I use "from long before the WORD/Jesus was known"? And if I did, how is that relevant to anything I've stated?
argue ? I have noticed arguments rarely accomplish much . I do like discussions .
I have noticed you don't like the JW's perhaps even hate them . they don't hate you . I'm not surprised there is hatred. I do recall Jesus saying that as he was hated so would those that believe in him . ok Jesus was right about that.
as for the ''personification of wisdom is female.''.. the female is the submissive element in the verses . Jesus is indeed submissive to his father .
you don't like the fact that Jesus was the very first thing that God made ? something he did all by himself ,no help . he's God he can do anything ,right ? actually there are things he can not do .but not many.
Give evidence. There is no evidence of Jesus' Beginning.
If Jesus was creaTED, then He would be finite, not infinite, yes? In your worldview, He would not be Omnipotent or Omniscient, yes?
Your fake idea contradicts Genesis!!
Read Genesis and tell me withOUT bias the first humans.
You have not listed from before what would make us think you will listen now?
Proverbs 8:22-23 states, "The Lord “Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. me at the beginning of His way, before His works of old. I have been established from everlasting, from the beginning, before the earth existed,"
- Proverbs 8:22 “Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago.''
the the earliest of his achievements denoting nothing was before him. Jesus was the very first of God creative works . then by his obedience and submissive nature ,doing exactly as his God and Father directed ,did creation get started . likely why he was called WORD , he carried out every directive given to him by his God.even to the last word of God's instructions .
- Apr 2, 2003
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I'm clearly using "argument" in the philosophical sense.
You've stated this more than once before and I've already said that I don't hate JWs, at all. I actually feel sorry for them, for how much they have been deceived and misled. I hate the Watchtower because of it's absolutely false theology that is leading many away from God and salvation.
If we want to say that the personification of wisdom in Prov. 8 refers to Jesus, then we should look to the Hebrew to see what it says, since that is the language it was written in. This gives the more accurate translation:
Pro 8:22 “The LORD possessed me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old. (ESV)
To say that Yahweh created Wisdom, is to suggest that he didn't have any wisdom to begin with, which is to make him less than God.
What is worth pointing out, yet again, is that you completely avoided addressing the contradictions between your beliefs and the NWT, and the contradictions within the NWT itself. You are a very dishonest and disrespectful. You avoid addressing anything that proves your position false and then expect others to address everything you say.
I should point out that the worst of it is that you're being dishonest with yourself. You're avoiding addressing serious problems for your beliefs, which shows a lack of desire for truth, and that will keep you from salvation. Those who truly love God, love truth and pursue it. Jesus said we are to "love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength" (Mark 12:30, ESV). That means pursuing truth and using our minds to think critically. It means to study the Bible and do our best to make sense of all of it (2 Tim. 2:15), including the difficult parts, and then changing our beliefs as necessary.
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