The things which are... and the things which shall be hereafter...

[jasoncran]

I think that it is only fair seeing that you consistently mock what I believe... Or are you the only one allowed to do that..?



The Nation of Israel... Just as it is defined in the scriptures over and over again.. Right now that nation is cut off and blinded in part until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.



When Jason ? When was Israel with child and then protected in the wilderness for a time, times, and half a time ?




So in your opinion Jesus comes three times ?

1) i will avoid the confusion tween chuckes and what appears to be mockery as i do this to my elder and he doesnt get offended.
2)on revalatation 12. do you believe that jesus isnt the man who is rule the nations with a rod of iron
http://www.christnotes.org/commentary.php?com=mhc&b=66&c=12

both matthew henry and clarke say that is the church in that image and the child is jesus.

that is what has been taught for centuries.

and this is what you say

http://www.revelationcommentary.org/12_chapter.html

wow we dont know. shoot im in the middle as that alludes to jesus when he came.

the later alludes to genesis 49:9

jesus is the only man to rule the world and with an iron fist. sorry that is out there from the dts.

and well joseph and mary were in egypt 4 years.hmm interesting. theres much we dont know. both sides have speculated on that. i dont see jesus being born again as he is the only one to rule the world with the iron fist.

that is what you say to me with the millenium

the problem with your definition of isreal is that all jews up to the rapture arent really jews if they come to christ. that presents a problem as the apostles paul today we that are alive at his coming. he included himself in that. and yet jesus said that would be judging the tribes of isreal. hmm so how can it be that they are seperate from the church that is the bride?
mat 19

28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel

then in ephesians paul says this
ephesians 5

22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

he is included himself in that as well. so how can a jew now not be of isreal?

 

[Eventide]

1) i will avoid the confusion tween chuckes and what appears to be mockery as i do this to my elder and he doesnt get offended.

Typical... it's fine if you mock other beliefs but not yours right..

2)on revalatation 12. do you believe that jesus isnt the man who is rule the nations with a rod of iron
http://www.christnotes.org/commentary.php?com=mhc&b=66&c=12

both matthew henry and clarke say that is the church in that image and the child is jesus.

Absolutely the Lord Jesus Christ will rule the nations, but He's not ruling the nations yet.. these verses are showing the NATION OF ISRAEL being born again and then protected by GOD in the wilderness for a time, times, and half a time..

So I'll ask again... when was Israel born again as a nation and then protected in the wilderness ?

that is what has been taught for centuries.

IMO this is one of your biggest problems.. you can't seem to think for yourself and so you must then assume that anyone else is just like you and must believe what OTHER PEOPLE have taught for centuries..

I could care less what people have taught for centuries... amillennialism has been taught for centuries and imo it's one of the largest errors in Christendom today.

the problem with your definition of isreal is that all jews up to the rapture arent really jews if they come to christ.

This is a perfect example of you not having a clue what you're talking about.

 

[Eventide]

there were two comings taught by jesus. one for the judgement of isreal and then for all men.

I'd like clarification on this..

We know Christ has come to earth once already as described in the gospels etc..

THEN, according to you... He came in 70 AD..

So that's TWO..

And you're also saying that He is coming again..

That's THREE...

Evidently.. you believe that the Lord comes three times.. two already past and one in the future..

NOW... PLEASE tell me what SCRIPTURE you use to support that He is coming again in the FUTURE..

 

[Eventide]

Here's another one for you..

WHEN (past, present, or future) are the 144,000 Jews from the twelve tribes of Israel (as described in Rev 7) sealed with the seal of God in their foreheads ?

 

[Eventide]

things which shall be hereafter...

Here's a thing that shall certainly be hereafter...

Rev 19..

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; that ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

 

[Eventide]

things which shall be hereafter...

NOTICE that when the LORD comes with His saints (as described in Rev 19) that the kings of the earth and their armies are gathered together to make war with Him...

This is certainly proof that the beast and false prophet are future entities.. because they're defeated when Christ comes.. and that's certainly future.

2 Thess 2 is a perfect mirror of this imo.. for there we read that the man of sin shall be destroyed with the brightness of HIS COMING...

The beast of Rev 19 is the man of sin in 2 Thess 2.

 

[Eventide]

things which shall be hereafter...

Do you know what else is pretty amazing... Rev 20 is contextually TIED to Rev 19.. proving that it too is future.. and of course this makes perfect sense because Rev 4-22 descibes the things which shall be hereafter.

This is one simple reason why amillenialism makes no sense at all.

 

[reba]

Looking to a literal interpretation of scripture?

 

[Eventide]

Looking to a literal interpretation of scripture?

Looking to dismiss or spiritualize vast portions of scripture ?

 

[reba]

Dismiss no A balance yes

 

[Eventide]

Dismiss no A balance yes

Well, by all means.. show everyone your balanced view of the whole of scripture...

 

[reba]

Well, by all means.. show everyone your balanced view of the whole of scripture...

Same back at ya Eventide why are you always so aggressive? Discussion with you just doesn't happen. That is a shame.
The implication was not "i have the balance" but looking for balance.
maybe i will try again in another year to discuss with you...

 

[Eventide]

Same back at ya Eventide why are you always so aggressive? Discussion with you just doesn't happen. That is a shame.

Now that's a cop out if I ever heard one.. no surprises here though.

IMO it wouldn't matter anyway Reba... all the scriptural proof in the world is typically useless when people's minds are made up.

 

[reba]

Now that's a cop out if I ever heard one.. no surprises here though.

IMO it wouldn't matter anyway Reba... all the scriptural proof in the world is typically useless when people's minds are made up.

WE AGREE :yes

 

[Eventide]

Yeah, that was pretty obvious imo..

 

[jasoncran]

I'd like clarification on this..

We know Christ has come to earth once already as described in the gospels etc..

THEN, according to you... He came in 70 AD..

So that's TWO..

And you're also saying that He is coming again..

That's THREE...

Evidently.. you believe that the Lord comes three times.. two already past and one in the future..

NOW... PLEASE tell me what SCRIPTURE you use to support that He is coming again in the FUTURE..

and your trib theory says thrice as well. once the first time. the second time when raptures the saints. the third time when he comes to save isreal.

i see you cant rebut me on why god cant do what i say with isreal. save any willing jew and make of them isreal.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words

and this

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

these speak of a ressurection some secret hiding of the church. will the jews be alive at the coming to save isreal? will they need to be redeem too from their bodies of sin? YUP. so that means how many ressurections? three? or?

 

[Eventide]

and your trib theory says thrice as well. once the first time. the second time when raptures the saints. the third time when he comes to save isreal.

Ahhh, but here's the difference...

I can show you each one with multiple SCRIPTURE references...

And I'll be bold here..

I guarantee that you will NOT be able to show me scriptural references for His coming again..

That's why I asked you to show me the scripture... Because I know that you can't.

So I'll make it really easy for you, just show one scripture reference of His coming again in the future... Again, I guarantee that you will not.

 

[Eventide]

the things which shall be hereafter...

Just to be a good sport about it.. here are FUTURE references to the Lord coming for His church, and to deliver the nation of Israel..

The church is easy.. and it's been mentioned here already. 1 Thess 4 details the dead in Christ rising and meeting the LORD in the AIR along with those who remain..

This is a reference of course to the resurrection of the dead, and more specifically, the resurrection of the dead IN CHRIST.. those who have literally died who have trusted in the Lord Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of their sins.

Certainly future.. I know many many brothers and sisters in Christ who have passed away.

For the second coming to earth.. we have Rev 19 of course and 2 Thess 2 which speaks of the man of sin being destroyed with the brightness of HIS COMING..

There's plenty more of course.

 

[jasoncran]

Re: the things which shall be hereafter...

Just to be a good sport about it.. here are FUTURE references to the Lord coming for His church, and to deliver the nation of Israel..

The church is easy.. and it's been mentioned here already. 1 Thess 4 details the dead in Christ rising and meeting the LORD in the AIR along with those who remain..

This is a reference of course to the resurrection of the dead, and more specifically, the resurrection of the dead IN CHRIST.. those who have literally died who have trusted in the Lord Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of their sins.

Certainly future.. I know many many brothers and sisters in Christ who have passed away.

For the second coming to earth.. we have Rev 19 of course and 2 Thess 2 which speaks of the man of sin being destroyed with the brightness of HIS COMING..

There's plenty more of course.

where did i say that did happen?

show me where the jewish saints are changed form corruptable to incorruptable after the trib? you cant theres no verse on that at all.


how will the trib saints know they dont have seven years till his appeareance or what they are in?thus if they do then they know and thus no man knoweth the hour is negated.

so you take this literally?

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

the army that is to siege jerusalem will be so unstoppable they have to use horseback!

1) And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled (2) to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.

1. And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled = outlines the list of those who gather for the war. Which beast is not explicitly identified at this point. This is clearly the fulfillment of the sixth bowl. With the arrival of the rider on the white horse, the stage is set.
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]2. To make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army = indicates the purpose of the gathering from a human perspective. [/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Revelation 19:20[/FONT]

even they say thats not literally but has an allusion. hmm so they dont know . you cant take it that literally from a vision..

heres another problem.

only the saints in the trib reign right? yup

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

and yet paul says that in corthinians that the saints were to judge the nations

Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?

so how can it be that in the trib the mark of the beast is 666 and only they didnt get that mark reign when paul said to the church in corinth they thall and all will judge the earth?

 

[Eventide]

See Jason,

I told you so.. not a single verse of scripture to support your 'stated belief' that the Lord Jesus Christ is coming again in the future..

Evidently you're a full preterist if you can't show one verse which is future...