James 2 And OSAS - Part 2

[Jethro Bodine]

Re: James 2 And OSAS

Ro 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Looks like when God forgives, no one can make a charge

When does God forgive? When you have faith in that forgiveness, or when you don't have faith in that forgiveness?

OSAS says someone in David's sandals doesn't even have to have faith to be forgiven and accepted by God. And worse, if someone like Nathan comes along and rebukes him for his failure it is Nathan that is in the wrong for doing that...you know, being harsh and judgmental and all.

Which makes we wonder...why doesn't OSAS cover the so-called wrong of the one who says the child of God who stops believing in the promise forfeits salvation? But it seems by reading these posts that is the person who isn't covered by the grace of OSAS. It sounds more and more like the unbelievers argument the more I think about it.

Not sure what some call OSAS? I will trust the Word of God and not the doubts that mans religion attempts to place on Gods promise.

Ro 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

OSAS says David did not need to repent to be saved on the Day of Judgment, and that the real evil is suggesting that he did.

This is sounding more and more like an unbelievers argument--calling good evil, black white, bitter sweet, etc.

 

[JLB]

I gotta be honest here. I did not realize this was the hot button it is in the church. I really didn't know this. I know it is among unbelievers. Why do believers get so uptight about this matter of obedience and make any suggestion about it equivalent to condemning? I'm perplexed by this. I really am.

The Devil has always used people within the Church to keep others in a luke warm carnal state and have them feel comfortable about it.

What better way than to teach them that they are saved from the moment they believe and there is nothing more more for them to do, just live the way you want and do whatever feels good.

This is the SEEKER FRIENDLY MESSAGE of the last days apostate Church.

Think it not strange, Brother.

JLB

 

[George Muller]

But it is non-OSAS that is causing people to stumble? It's nothing more than the tickling of ears.

Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Seems like it is those who want to boast in their own works, that like to get their "ears tickled". The flesh loves to hear how good the flesh is.

1Ti 1:5 ¶ Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
; undissembled, i.e. sincere:--without dissimulation (hypocrisy), unfeigned.

6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But what happens when we remove 'faith' from everything you've just said? Even you are conditioning the manifest love of God in the giving of salvation on faith. Is everything you just said true if I don't have faith in Christ?

Like I said, it is possilbe to warn those who have strayed from faith, and have turned to works of man, without causing the young believer to stumble. You do not build the faith of another by bringing questions upon their salvation, that is to weaken their faith.

Tell James.

Really.

Well I think james would tell all those who attempt to "unsave" other believers, that you are breaking the Royal Law.

Jas 4:11 ¶ Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

So again, you guys seem to want to judge others by a standard you do not keep yourself? In this you are breaking the Royal Law.

You're plainly saying that James is contradicting himself in his own letter. Remember, this is not my argument. I'm simply showing what James himself said: A dead faith (one with no evidence of that faith attached) can NOT save. Yet OSAS says he turns right around and says it's unloving to say that to people. Amazing.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But it is non-OSAS that is causing people to stumble? It's nothing more than the tickling of ears.

Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Seems like it is those who want to boast in their own works, that like to get their "ears tickled". The flesh loves to hear how good the flesh is.

1Ti 1:5 ¶ Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
; undissembled, i.e. sincere:--without dissimulation (hypocrisy), unfeigned.

6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

What's your point? the Bible plainly says to make every effort to show our faith by what we do.

Does my, or anyone else's hypocrisy, change that charge given to us in scripture? How is the potential hypocrisy of the person who says what the Bible says about making our calling and election sure through a purposeful effort to do good deeds, and 'dead faith can't save' make those truths now not true? Explain.

 

[dadof10]

Re: James 2 And OSAS

People do NOT decide "I want to go to hell", Deborah. They fall from believing the promises that there IS a heaven! They hear the promises, but don't see the results of a loving Father Who cares for their needs. "Ask and you shall receive". "Well, God, I've been asking "x" and I haven't received it". Now, it doesn't mean someone is asking for the lottery, but it can be something that would seem "reasonable", like to find a job or to be cured from a sickness to serve God or to pray for a child who has gone WAY wayward... "WHERE IS GOD IN THIS"???? We hear the promises, we hear the Word, but we sometimes do not see the results. And for some people, they give up on waiting. Their faith becomes a shipwreck. And it is gradual.

I am not about to doubt whether someone ONCE followed God. No one can see the internal motives, but it does seem, by one's actions, that the Spirit played some part in their lives and they were freed from sinful behavior. THAT is the definition of being saved - freed from the slavery of sin. Once they convert, perhaps they give up porn or drinking. They pray, they cuss less, by their fruits they are known. This is not "from them", since only in Christ can one act like this. This is why I am more of the thinking of NEVER saying "they never were saved", and follow Scriptures's lead to say that they fell away from the faith. They have given up on God and return to their former way. Does this mean they are going to hell? Heaven's no. Let us pray for people in doubt and who have lost their faith, that they hear the Lord pursuing them to return to Him.

Great point. This may have been the reason Abraham was "re-justified" in Gen. 15. He got tired of waiting for a promised descendant. It took too long.

 

[George Muller]

I gotta be honest here. I did not realize this was the hot button it is in the church. I really didn't know this. I know it is among unbelievers. Why do believers get so uptight about this matter of obedience and make any suggestion about it equivalent to condemning? I'm perplexed by this. I really am.

The Devil has always used people within the Church to keep others in a luke warm carnal state and have them feel comfortable about it.

What better way than to teach them that they are saved from the moment they believe and there is nothing more more for them to do, just live the way you want and do whatever feels good.

This is the SEEKER FRIENDLY MESSAGE of the last days apostate Church.

Think it not strange, Brother.

JLB

Yes, if anyone disagree with your unbelief, just call them names. Then charge them with apostasy.
You can not defend your doctrines, you know why? Because they are not sound doctrine.

Ro 8:31 ¶ What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

This is true and sound doctrine, all this doubt and "unsaving" of believers is just a bunch of mans religion, who attempt to control others by fear.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I gotta be honest here. I did not realize this was the hot button it is in the church. I really didn't know this. I know it is among unbelievers. Why do believers get so uptight about this matter of obedience and make any suggestion about it equivalent to condemning? I'm perplexed by this. I really am.

The Devil has always used people within the Church to keep others in a luke warm carnal state and have them feel comfortable about it.

What better way than to teach them that they are saved from the moment they believe and there is nothing more more for them to do, just live the way you want and do whatever feels good.

This is the SEEKER FRIENDLY MESSAGE of the last days apostate Church.

Think it not strange, Brother.

JLB

I must say I've suffered the most grief about the gospel from suggesting that we are sinners who have to repent to be saved.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I gotta be honest here. I did not realize this was the hot button it is in the church. I really didn't know this. I know it is among unbelievers. Why do believers get so uptight about this matter of obedience and make any suggestion about it equivalent to condemning? I'm perplexed by this. I really am.

The Devil has always used people within the Church to keep others in a luke warm carnal state and have them feel comfortable about it.

What better way than to teach them that they are saved from the moment they believe and there is nothing more more for them to do, just live the way you want and do whatever feels good.

This is the SEEKER FRIENDLY MESSAGE of the last days apostate Church.

Think it not strange, Brother.

JLB

Yes, if anyone disagree with your unbelief, just call them names. Then charge them with apostasy.
You can not defend your doctrines, you know why? Because they are not sound doctrine.

Ro 8:31 ¶ What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

This is true and sound doctrine, all this doubt and "unsaving" of believers is just a bunch of mans religion, who attempt to control others by fear.

If JLB doesn't mind the intrusion...

This passage is to JUSTIFIED people, not unjustified people.

What is the condition for justification?

Your first inclination is to think 'nothing' because the church has told us salvation is utterly and completely without condition. But you know the condition for justification is faith--trust in the blood of Christ. Where in this passage you posted is the condition of faith removed?

How can the blood of Christ continue to intercede for the person who no longer trusts in the blood to do that for them? It goes against all of scripture to think the blood intercedes for unbelievers.

 

[JLB]

1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles--that a man has his father's wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed.
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 1 Corinthians 5:4-5

If this man continued in his sin without repenting, he would be lost.


JLB

 

[dadof10]

Obedience is all about progress, not perfection. This progress is the evidence of our salvation and the continuation of our faith in the blood of Christ that keeps us legally justified before God in heaven.

This sums it up nicely.

 

[George Muller]

But it is non-OSAS that is causing people to stumble? It's nothing more than the tickling of ears.

Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Seems like it is those who want to boast in their own works, that like to get their "ears tickled". The flesh loves to hear how good the flesh is.

1Ti 1:5 ¶ Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
; undissembled, i.e. sincere:--without dissimulation (hypocrisy), unfeigned.

6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

What's your point? the Bible plainly says to make every effort to show our faith by what we do.

Does my, or anyone else's hypocrisy, change that charge given to us in scripture? How is the potential hypocrisy of the person who says what the Bible says about making our calling and election sure through a purposeful effort to do good deeds, and 'dead faith can't save' make those truths now not true? Explain.

Well you seem to jump back and forth into truth and then back into error? You cannot express one point of truth and then expect that to cover your error.
Also you can not claim, that you have good deeds if you are judging others by a standard you do not keep yourself, which you have already admitted.

Hypocricy is not making your election and calling sure, it is a rejection of the calling and election.

 

[smaller]

Just show me in the Bible where it says I can stop trusting in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins and still be saved and I will show you where it says you can't. Deal?

Some people raise the flag of 'works' salvation. Your position placed 'your trust' instead.

My observation is your 'factual conveyance', one must TRUST that God might not save you, and for some reason you think this makes sense as 'trust,' and perhaps to you it does.

If you take a small step back however it actually seems quite entirely ludicrous.

But what OSAS fails to acknowledge is that when you don't have this 'sufficient proof' of faith you have a faith that can not save. I didn't say it. James did. And that's only one place that tells us how what we do signifies whether or not we have the faith that can save us.

What the non-OSAS crowd 'typically' presents is that one must 'continue' performing certain things (trust, works, whatever rituals and incantations they might employ, etc etc) in order to, in effect and for all intents and purposes, save themselves. That type of 'methodology' is also the primary beef that OSAS believers have with those kinds of presentations in general as we know that exactly nothing that we will ever do will prove sufficient for that task. None of us cease to be 'sinners' no matter what is said, done or attempted to be 'ritualistically' exercised out.

The really difficult part of OSAS is even though it acknowledges what you just said about "deeds being 'sufficient proof' of faith" it will completely contradict James and insist that faith without deeds, or even no faith at all, CAN save a person. Do you want to argue the point?

Not at all. My point on this matter is for any of you non-OSAS adherents to 'set a standard' of sufficiency. And in fact none of you as of yet have rose to the challenge. I cited to 'you' earlier that whoever provides a cup of water to a believer, in Jesus' Eyes, shall not lose his reward. Is that 'sufficient works' for you? It certainly seemed to be for Jesus.

I've put other observations of fact on the table as well, that being that unbelievers are shown in the text to be SAVED. So unbelief in itself is not a 'disqualification' to salvation. This was shown for Moses and Aaron who died because of UNbelief, for blinded Israel, enemies of the Gospel, who shall be saved regardless, and even for the unbelieving 'spouse' who is sanctified by the believing spouse.

I also cited Paul being the 'chief of sinners' post salvation as an elimination of 'sin' being a disqualifier for salvation as well.

That is completely and utterly non-scriptural, but it is claimed that non-OSAS is the doctrine causing people to stumble.

It's a fairly simple observation that factually the position represents that you must believe that God in Christ might not save you, REASONS notwithstanding.

For all intents and purposes then, there is that particular 'Gospel Message.'

And that is also why, when stepping back and seeing it as it is, it is quite entirely laughable.

Would you seriously promote the Gospel as being, believe like me, that God in Christ might not save me.

zzzzz

s

 

[George Muller]

1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles--that a man has his father's wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed.
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. [B]1 Corinthians 5:4-5



JLB
[/B]

Yes destruction of the flesh, not the spirit. This man was restored to fellowship in the second epistle, he did not get "unsaved"

 

[gr8grace]

I agree. The falling away is actually the world has become so hardened that no one will believe any more. We see a lot of it Here on a Christian Site!

A lot of it? I see just the opposite. Where do you see people "so hardened that no one will believe any more" HERE?

Do you believe in faith alone In Christ for your salvation? No? That's what I mean. Acts 16:31, Faith alone in Christ is the ONLY way of salvation.

If one thinks," Yes, I believe in Christ but I have to do _____________ also to be saved." That is not the right faith to Get saved and be a Christian.

Repent, is to turn from your unbelief in faith alone and turn to belief in faith alone in Christ alone.

In my opinion, if a person does not believe this, one is Hardened from the truth.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Re: James 2 And OSAS

People do NOT decide "I want to go to hell", Deborah. They fall from believing the promises that there IS a heaven! They hear the promises, but don't see the results of a loving Father Who cares for their needs. "Ask and you shall receive". "Well, God, I've been asking "x" and I haven't received it". Now, it doesn't mean someone is asking for the lottery, but it can be something that would seem "reasonable", like to find a job or to be cured from a sickness to serve God or to pray for a child who has gone WAY wayward... "WHERE IS GOD IN THIS"???? We hear the promises, we hear the Word, but we sometimes do not see the results. And for some people, they give up on waiting. Their faith becomes a shipwreck. And it is gradual.

I am not about to doubt whether someone ONCE followed God. No one can see the internal motives, but it does seem, by one's actions, that the Spirit played some part in their lives and they were freed from sinful behavior. THAT is the definition of being saved - freed from the slavery of sin. Once they convert, perhaps they give up porn or drinking. They pray, they cuss less, by their fruits they are known. This is not "from them", since only in Christ can one act like this. This is why I am more of the thinking of NEVER saying "they never were saved", and follow Scriptures's lead to say that they fell away from the faith. They have given up on God and return to their former way. Does this mean they are going to hell? Heaven's no. Let us pray for people in doubt and who have lost their faith, that they hear the Lord pursuing them to return to Him.

Great point. This may have been the reason Abraham was "re-justified" in Gen. 15. He got tired of waiting for a promised descendant. It took too long.

Abraham did not know that the promise was to come through Sarah until after he laid with Hagar.

I cause quite a stir in Bible studies when I say this, but Abraham's roll in the hay with Hagar was actually an expression of his faith in the promise, not his failing belief in the promise. Paul says he did not waver in regard to the promises made to him:

"19 Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah’s womb was also dead. 20 Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21 being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22 This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” (Romans 4:19-22 NIV)

This is the very scripture that made me wonder why the church liked to say Abraham had lack of faith for sleeping with Hagar. Paul said he did not waver in his faith. And upon examination, his laying with Hagar was actually a demonstration of his faith...just according to the limited knowledge of God's plan he had at that time.

It's a picture for us to understand that, as strange as it may seem, it is God's will that we try to lay hold of the promises of God through the law (Hagar) first. As surely as it is the law (Hagar) that does not bring about the Promised Son, it's still God's will nonetheless that we approach the promise of a Son that way first. In order that we might disappointed in the attempt and be led to that which really does bring about the Promised Son--the way of faith, the New Covenant (Sarah).

 

[JLB]

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7

and again -


1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

and again -


1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 1 Timothy 4:1




One can not say they love God and live a life of sin.

If one repents, God will grant that one forgiveness.

We all have sinned, even after salvation, however we must choose to walk after Him and turn from wickedness.

Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity." 2 Timothy 2:19


JLB

 

[George Muller]

One can not say they love God and live a life of sin.

If one repents, God will grant that one forgiveness.

Do you sin?
Or do sin less than others, and you think that makes you right with God?
Jas 4:11 ¶ Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I must say smaller, you have these guys nailed to their own doubts. They dont even seem to know what they believe or why they believe it

I don't make my observations to their detriments. If they believe they must believe that God might not save them in order to be saved and somehow that makes sense to them, they must be 'fully convinced' in their own minds....;)

s

Yes, and they call this faith? Then try to teach this double minded stuff to others?

Jas 1:6But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

How is it that trusting in the blood of Christ, and then NOT trusting in the blood of Christ is not an example of the very thing that James said will cause us to NOT receive from the Lord? Explain.

He's quite plainly saying the wavering faith is the faith that will not receive. But OSAS says as long as we have faith to begin with all is good. He will receive from the Lord.

 

[JLB]

1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles--that a man has his father's wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed.
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. [B]1 Corinthians 5:4-5



JLB
[/B]

Yes destruction of the flesh, not the spirit. This man was restored to fellowship in the second epistle, he did not get "unsaved"

Without the action of turning him over to Satan, his spirit would have been lost. That is the point you seem to ignore.


JLB