James 2 And OSAS - Part 2

[jeff77]

If you believe non-OSAS, how much time of back sliding has to go by before you are un-saved? Or is all it takes is a person saying "I don't believe in Jesus anymore"?
I hope this question makes sense.

 

[smaller]

How are you getting this that I believe I am saved because I believe that if I stop believing God will not save me?

If TRUST = TRUST that it might not happen, then that is your factual TRUST formula.

There is no escaping the math.

s

 

[JLB]

The supposed Gospel message that says, in effect:

Believe that God loves you or He will eternally burn you alive forever has always struck me as more than a bit odd and quite entirely off the wall.

s

Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:


JLB

 

[smaller]

Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:


JLB

You can cite scriptures all day long and I will point to the fact that we all read them with our personal predisposition glasses on. I believe 'every' scripture.

If you think the above is a slam dunk that believers won't be saved I'll be happy to send you back to fact school.

Let me know when you are ready to put off your predisposition glasses.

s

 

[George Muller]

Without the action of turning him over to Satan, his spirit would have been lost. That is the point you seem to ignore.


JLB

It does not say that does it? You add that from your own opinion. As if God wants to unsave people that His Son died to save? God is not looking for reasons to unsave but has extended boundless grace to save all that will believe.

No Paul says it.

deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

If there was some other way, why would Paul be directed by the Holy Spirit, to take this action?

Why do you question the scriptures, to bring doubt on God's word.

Or, maybe you think without Paul having the church at Corinth take this action, that God would save him anyway?

It that the point of this doctrine?

JLB

The point was that these man be removed from the Church, in that his wickedness would spread like leven. But that does not equate to being "unsaved" in fact one could see that God has extended boundless grace to this man, even that he is restored to the church. So you see Gods judgment, I see Gods mercy.

Jas 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

The scriptures are hidden to those who have hardened hearts.

 

[gr8grace]

1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles--that a man has his father's wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed.
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. [B]1 Corinthians 5:4-5



JLB
[/B]

Yes destruction of the flesh, not the spirit. This man was restored to fellowship in the second epistle, he did not get "unsaved"

Without the action of turning him over to Satan, his spirit would have been lost. That is the point you seem to ignore.


JLB

So Satan saved his soul?

The plain and clear interpretation is if That man did not repent, Satan would have had his turn to destroy his flesh and take him physically out. But the mans soul was Gods.

Once this person is turned over to Satan, he can expect a terrible death. But, this man did not lose his salvation (once saved always saved). This is the mature believer's understanding and absolute confidence in the doctrine of everlasting salvation. You did nothing to earn salvation. You can do nothing to lose it once you have believed. That is the "Grace of God!"

 

[reba]

2.5: Respect each others' opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself.

Lets not ruin an informative thread by getting personal..... Not necessarily directed at the last poster....

Second warning in the hour? Do we need to close this thread so we can spend some time in prayer?

 

[JLB]

If TRUST = TRUST that it might not happen, then that is your factual TRUST formula. There is no escaping the math.

Why would you twist the truth to make say the opposite of the scriptures.

NOT TRUSTING is what leads to sin.

If you don't trust God, then you don't believe God, and therefore you don't obey God.

This is the truth that was alid out for us in the Garden of Eden.

Eve did not trust God when He said if you eat of that tree, you will surely die.


So it is today, the serpent is deceiving the Church as Paul warned, did God say?

Yes, God did say - "Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity."

SO IT IS NOT TRUSTING GOD THAT LEADS TO DISOBEDIENCE!

IF YOU TRUST GOD YOU OBEY HIM AND TURN AWAY FROM SIN.


JLB

 

[smaller]

My 'main complaint' with the non-OSAS faction is that they all threaten the eternal fate of myself and family based on their vague and innocuous formulas and seek to put believers in 'subjection' to their formulas inclusive of having to take on DOUBT as the bait.

I am just not all that fond of that type of personal manipulation under threat and duress based on some other partial sighted believers.

I believe God is vastly more LOVING then such believers portray.

s

 

[smaller]

Why would you twist the truth to make say the opposite of the scriptures.

Who said I did? I believe every Word of God is for my LIFE. Not my 'eternal death.'

Therein we depart to different sights don't we?

I believe I will LIVE BY EVERY WORD of God.

Not everybody reads that way.

Therein our 'personal disposition' will vary dramatically. I will be led to see LIFE in Every Word and you won't, and that's all there is to it.

When you are ready for a more realistic view of 'depart from me you who work iniquity' you can start by claiming you 'don't' work iniquity?

and I will have another bit of entertainment.

IF however you do figure out that 'we all' as believers still sin, which is INIQUITY, then you might accidentally figure out that those Words of God in Christ will in fact be spoke to those who work INIQUITY.

Scary? It might be to you. Not to me.

s

 

[George Muller]

God is not looking for reasons to unsave but has extended boundless grace to save all that will believe.

You keep saying it, but OSAS insists we don't have to believe to stay in this grace God has provided.

Like I said, I dont know what some call OSAS? But pointing to others errors is not an excuse to teach error.

Then make it clear what you believe: Can I stop believing in Christ and still be saved? Is OSAS true in this respect?

Well again you attempt to cover the error of your previous post, by making this augument? This is not the point you made, now to try to make it seem as if this was your point, is not honest. I was adressing the issue of those who attempt to put a standard upon others, that they do not keep themselves. Yes faith is the standard, and even in this God has made a way for those who struggle to believe the truth.

 

[JLB]

1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles--that a man has his father's wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed.
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. [B]1 Corinthians 5:4-5



JLB
[/B]

Yes destruction of the flesh, not the spirit. This man was restored to fellowship in the second epistle, he did not get "unsaved"

Without the action of turning him over to Satan, his spirit would have been lost. That is the point you seem to ignore.


JLB

So Satan saved his soul?

The plain and clear interpretation is if That man did not repent, Satan would have had his turn to destroy his flesh and take him physically out. But the mans soul was Gods.

Once this person is turned over to Satan, he can expect a terrible death. But, this man did not lose his salvation (once saved always saved). This is the mature believer's understanding and absolute confidence in the doctrine of everlasting salvation. You did nothing to earn salvation. You can do nothing to lose it once you have believed. That is the "Grace of God!"

The purpose that Paul was seeking for this person who was a believer was that his spirit would not be lost due to his unrepentant sin.

It would better for this man to suffer the destruction of his flesh so that his eternal soul would be saved.

If OSAS were true, then no action at all would need to be taken.

The fact that this action was to be taken, shows us that they trusted God and believed His word, and feared for this man's eternal life.


JLB

 

[George Muller]

I will drop out of this conversation, but I say keep the Royal Law, do not judge and condemn others by a standard you do not keep yourselves. All of us are subject to sin, it not a matter of others sinning more than us, for where sin abounds grace does much more abound. Its a matter of being in Gods Grace.

Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Re: James 2 And OSAS

Joh_10:28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall anymanpluck them out of my hand.

Mat 7:22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These Scriptures are all the Words of our Lord... How do we balance them?... This topic is one that I have struggled with for years....seems I can find Scripture to support both views...

Let's talk about this 'knowing'.

Paul said the Galatians 'knew' God, and God knew them:

"9 But now that you know God—or rather are known by God..." (Galatians 4:9 NIV)

But warned them of returning to the bondage of reliance on the law for justification:

"—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable forces? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10 You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11 I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.-- (Galatians 4:9-11 NIV)

And told them they are alienating themselves from the Christ they 'know', and who knows them by doing that:

"4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. " (Galatians 5:4 NIV)

So it's not categorically true that to be 'known' by God is to always and forever to be 'known' by God, or that to be unknown by God always and categorically means he never knew you. I have no choice but to conclude that Jesus was speaking to a very specific group of people whom he really did never know. And the parallel account of what Jesus is speaking seems to bear this out:


"23 Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?”

He said to them, 24 “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25 Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’

“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’

26 “Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’

27 “But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’" (Luke 13:23-27 NIV)


So I ask myself, "is it really accurate to attribute Christ's condemnation of the lawless people he 'never knew' in Matthew 7 to ALL people who don't know him. IOW, that he never knew everybody he won't know at the Judgment?" Apparently not. The Galatians seem to be the potential exception to that.


John has things to say about 'knowing' that are worth looking at, too. We instantly equate 'knowing' with salvation, and 'not knowing' with a lack of salvation. I'm not so sure we should be doing that.

I have to get back to my chores. I'd love to stay here all day, but duty calls..."yes, dear. Right away, dear."
(She doesn't really do that...at least not in words.)


See you soon.

 

[JLB]

I will drop out of this conversation, but I say keep the Royal Law, do not judge and condemn others by a standard you do not keep yourselves.

Now that is well said! :amen

All of us are subject to sin, it not a matter of others sinning more than us, for where sin abounds grace does much more abound. Its a matter of being in Gods Grace.

I can agree with that!


JLB

 

[smaller]

We know for a fact that it is people who claim to know Christ and who apparently also do 'Godly Works' that will hear the infamous:

Luke 13:27
But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

Is there a one of you who thinks they can stand before God in Christ and say they DIDN'T work iniquity after salvation?

Hearing is only a matter of personal perspective.

I am certainly not about to be standing in front of God in Christ LYING about that fact.

How about any of you others? Are we going to claim we never worked iniquity post salvation?

Not fond of trying to pull Gods leg myself quite honestly.

s

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If you believe non-OSAS, how much time of back sliding has to go by before you are un-saved? Or is all it takes is a person saying "I don't believe in Jesus anymore"?
I hope this question makes sense.

It makes perfect sense.

I have come to the conclusion that it is the sin that represents the rejection of the forgiveness of Christ that removes you from the grace of salvation. That could be any sin. The sin of unbelief is what can not be atoned for, and that sin can manifest itself in any number of ways.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I was adressing the issue of those who attempt to put a standard upon others, that they do not keep themselves.

You were arguing with the standard.

How does my hypocrisy, if I had any, somehow negate the standard, or make it impossible to impose the standard the Bible sets?

OSAS says that standard doesn't really exist, that ultimately faith without works really can save, or worse, no faith or works at all can save. OSAS vehemently denies James' teaching that dead faith can't save when pressed on the issue. And as a response non-OSAS gets attacked for being judgmental for defending James' setting of the standard for proof of salvation, and somehow hypocrisy makes it so we can't say there is a standard.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We know for a fact that it is people who claim to know Christ and who apparently also do 'Godly Works' that will hear the infamous:

Luke 13:27
But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

Is there a one of you who thinks they can stand before God in Christ and say they DIDN'T work iniquity after salvation?

Hearing is only a matter of personal perspective.

I am certainly not about to be standing in front of God in Christ LYING about that fact.

How about any of you others? Are we going to claim we never worked iniquity post salvation?

Not fond of trying to pull Gods leg myself quite honestly.

s

But the passage is about people saying they did good work, not that they didn't do any bad work.

Again, does this negate James' teaching that dead faith (one with no works to validate it as real) can not save? That seems to be the angle OSAS puts on it. That's what we need to be talking about.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

My 'main complaint' with the non-OSAS faction is that they all threaten the eternal fate of myself and family based on their vague and innocuous formulas and seek to put believers in 'subjection' to their formulas inclusive of having to take on DOUBT as the bait.

I am just not all that fond of that type of personal manipulation under threat and duress based on some other partial sighted believers.

I believe God is vastly more LOVING then such believers portray.

s

Can dead faith save? Yes, or no?

Answer James' rhetorical question for yourself. Why insist I, or anybody else, not show you James is asking the question that has an obvious answer? And that it's evil to do that (show you the question...and it's answer), even if we really do fall short of it ourselves and are condemned.