James 2 And OSAS - Part 2

[George Muller]

I asked you to reread my post slowly and thoughtfully. I showed you the standard is not perfection. The standard is the love of God being expressed through you in ever increasing measure. Progress, not perfection.

My measure of increase is not your measure of increase. And your measure of increase is not my measure of increase.

"16 Only let us live up to what we have already attained." (Philippians 3:16 NIV)

I don't know what level of attainment you have achieved in regard to 'love your neighbor as yourself' that you are now expected to live up to. But I know it's prolly different than what I've attained and God expects me to live up to.

Yes I agreed with much of your post and agree with what you say here, this issue I have is that if some make a standard of behavior, such as you must keep the Royal Law to prove your saved. Then those who set that standard should not grant to themselves a certain level of mercy, but hold others to a standard that they do not keep themselves. This is why James wrote this scripture.

Jas 4:11 ¶ Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?
Judging and condemning other believers is evidence that one is not walking in love.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Here is my scripture about inheriting the kingdom of God.

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:


There will be two groups of people on earth when Jesus returns -

Those who inherit the kingdom.

Those who banished into everlasting fire.


George, please do not deceive people by telling them such things as you said -

Paul is not saying they are not saved, but that they cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

According to Jesus, if you do not inherit the Kingdom of God, you will go to hell.

It's that simple!

JLB

Do you do any or the things listed here?
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

DO YOU SIN? How come you get a pass and others are condemned? Do you know any Christain that is not guilty of these things at times? or that does not sin?

I don't PRACTICE those sins that Paul mentioned.

The key phrase you overlook, those who practice those things.

JLB

Yes, practice...as in a lifestyle...what characterizes you. Like the unbeliever who can do good sometimes, but who is characterized by their sin, not their right doing. In similar fashion, the believer is to seek to be characterized by the good he does, not the bad he does. So he can know for himself that he has the faith that saves. The Bible plainly teaches this. Plainly.

 

[George Muller]

Here is my scripture about inheriting the kingdom of God.

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:


There will be two groups of people on earth when Jesus returns -

Those who inherit the kingdom.

Those who banished into everlasting fire.


George, please do not deceive people by telling them such things as you said -

Paul is not saying they are not saved, but that they cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

According to Jesus, if you do not inherit the Kingdom of God, you will go to hell.

It's that simple!

JLB

Do you do any or the things listed here?
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

DO YOU SIN? How come you get a pass and others are condemned? Do you know any Christain that is not guilty of these things at times? or that does not sin?

I don't PRACTICE those sins that Paul mentioned.

The key phrase you overlook, those who practice those things.

JLB

Oh, so you mean you dont do them as much as other people? Do you do these things on a daily basis? hourly, weekly etc... They are still works of the flesh. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident,
And most christians do practice these things daily, but it does not mean they are not saved, it means they are walking in the flesh and cannot receive spiritual things from heaven.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I asked you to reread my post slowly and thoughtfully. I showed you the standard is not perfection. The standard is the love of God being expressed through you in ever increasing measure. Progress, not perfection.

My measure of increase is not your measure of increase. And your measure of increase is not my measure of increase.

"16 Only let us live up to what we have already attained." (Philippians 3:16 NIV)

I don't know what level of attainment you have achieved in regard to 'love your neighbor as yourself' that you are now expected to live up to. But I know it's prolly different than what I've attained and God expects me to live up to.

Yes I agreed with much of your post and agree with what you say here, this issue I have is that if some make a standard of behavior, such as you must keep the Royal Law to prove your saved. Then those who set that standard should not grant to themselves a certain level of mercy, but hold others to a standard that they do not keep themselves. This is why James wrote this scripture.

Jas 4:11 ¶ Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?
Judging and condemning other believers is evidence that one is not walking in love.

But this same James is the one who set the standard as the royal law of scripture, 'love your neighbor as yourself'. Not me. I'm just saying what James plainly said. (Sorry for throwing you under the bus, James).

Do you disagree with me that we each individually are growing up into the stature of Christ at our own pace according to our own threshold for abuse and persecution? Some of us started way before others. Some of us are just new born babies still crapping in the proverbial diapers of our born again experience. Some of us could die a martyr's death today in the name of Christ without a peep...I'm not so sure I could. I don't even want to find out. But regardless...James' teaching applies to every one of us...according to the progress God expects of us at any one time in accordance with what we've learned and mastered, not what we haven't learned and mastered. I didn't even learn the truth about 'love your neighbor as yourself' until I was two or three years old in the faith. And being just a kid, I thought I'd arrived. What I found out was I was just beginning. Mastering 'love your neighbor as yourself' is a life long process. Dig in.

 

[George Muller]

Here is my scripture about inheriting the kingdom of God.

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:


There will be two groups of people on earth when Jesus returns -

Those who inherit the kingdom.

Those who banished into everlasting fire.


George, please do not deceive people by telling them such things as you said -

Paul is not saying they are not saved, but that they cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

According to Jesus, if you do not inherit the Kingdom of God, you will go to hell.

It's that simple!

JLB

Do you do any or the things listed here?
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

DO YOU SIN? How come you get a pass and others are condemned? Do you know any Christain that is not guilty of these things at times? or that does not sin?

I don't PRACTICE those sins that Paul mentioned.

The key phrase you overlook, those who practice those things.

JLB

Yes, practice...as in a lifestyle...what characterizes you. Like the unbeliever who can do good sometimes, but who is characterized by their sin, not their right doing. In similar fashion, the believer is to seek to be characterized by the good he does, not the bad he does. So he can know for himself that he has the faith that saves. The Bible plainly teaches this. Plainly.

See you guys give grace to yourself, and make excuses with the meanings of words when it comes to your own salvation, but lay a bunch of religious rules and made-up nonsense on others as it relates to their salvation.

 

[George Muller]

But this same James is the one who set the standard as the royal law of scripture, 'love your neighbor as yourself'. Not me.

Read your own post, you made this a standard of salvation for others, but granted mercy to your own trangressions against the Royal Law. I just wanted to point out to you that by your own standard you could not prove your own salvation.

 

[George Muller]

I don't PRACTICE those sins that Paul mentioned.

Can anyone doubt that those who condemn others by these biblical standards are always ready to make an excuse for their sins but are more than ready to condemn others for the very things they do themselves. Why did God choose to express the keeping of the law in that we love others as ourself? Because when and if we really keep the Royal Law, we would never do or "practice" this sort of evil.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes, practice...as in a lifestyle...what characterizes you. Like the unbeliever who can do good sometimes, but who is characterized by their sin, not their right doing. In similar fashion, the believer is to seek to be characterized by the good he does, not the bad he does. So he can know for himself that he has the faith that saves. The Bible plainly teaches this. Plainly.

See you guys give grace to yourself, and make excuses with the meanings of words when it comes to your own salvation, but lay a bunch of religious rules and made-up nonsense on others as it relates to their salvation.

I'm sorry. I'm getting old and I've forgotten what sins I condemned you for: Was it adultery? Coveting? Muzzling the ox while it was treading out the grain? (that one's for you JLB, lol).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't PRACTICE those sins that Paul mentioned.

Can anyone doubt that those who condemn others by these biblical standards are always ready to make an excuse for their sins but are more than ready to condemn others for the very things they do themselves.

Did you not see the allowance I extended to you to grow up into obedience according to your own place and relationship in Christ? If I had not done that, then I would be guilty of holding a harsher standard over you than I do myself. But as it is, I extend the same opportunity for God's mercy and long suffering to you as I do to myself.

Judgment is according to what you've mastered, not what you haven't mastered. Paul, the father to his kids in the faith at Corinth said this to them:

"And we will be ready to punish every act of disobedience, once your obedience is complete." (2 Corinthians 10:6 NIV)

Has JLB or I, or dadof10, or anyone else suggested that we are over you in the faith and know what you're responsible for and ready to condemn you for if you get out of line? I don't even know your real name.

Apply the truth of scripture yourself. We're only presenting it to you for you to apply.

 

[George Muller]

I don't PRACTICE those sins that Paul mentioned.

Can anyone doubt that those who condemn others by these biblical standards are always ready to make an excuse for their sins but are more than ready to condemn others for the very things they do themselves.

Did you not see the allowance I extended to you to grow up into obedience according to your own place and relationship in Christ? If I had not done that, then I would be guilty of holding a harsher standard over you than I do myself. But as it is, I extend the same opportunity for mercy to you as a brother in Christ that I do to myself.

Well its not me that I am concerned with, its the young Christian trying to believe that God has secured them in His love, and these sort of doctrines that "unsave" believers are causing many to stumble and walk away from the confidence a believer should have in Gods unbroken love.

Ro 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord

This is true christian life, not all this doubt and nonsense about "unsaving" believers.

 

[George Muller]

I'm sorry. I'm getting old and I've forgotten what sins I condemned you for: Was it adultery? Coveting? Muzzling the ox while it was treading out the grain?

Well you can not condemn the righteous, but you can cause the weak to stumble, with false teaching. Besides that I think those who attempt to unsave other believers are doing the devils work.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

... when and if we really keep the Royal Law, we would never do or "practice" this sort of evil.

'Never'? Wake up and smell the coffee, lol.

But, yes, by pure definition, you are not being loving when you sin. But as I said, the Bible says it's about progress, not perfection. I say this for you...I say this for me. You're under God's grace just as I am. My exhortation to you would be to take full advantage of the mercy God has made available to us believers. That means be quick to seek God's forgiveness and get clean when you fail. That's what I do.

 

[George Muller]

... when and if we really keep the Royal Law, we would never do or "practice" this sort of evil.

'Never'? Wake up and smell the coffee, lol.

But, yes, by pure definition, you are not being loving when you sin. But as I said, the Bible says it's about progress, not perfection. I say this for you...I say this for me. You're under God's grace just as I am. My exhortation to you would be to take full advantage of the mercy God has made available to us believers. That means be quick to seek God's forgiveness and get clean when you fail. That's what I do.

Well you can not take Gods mercy from me, but you can hurt a young believer with doctrines that cause them to doubt the salvation they have ask the Lord for.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I'm sorry. I'm getting old and I've forgotten what sins I condemned you for: Was it adultery? Coveting? Muzzling the ox while it was treading out the grain?

Well you can not condemn the righteous, but you can cause the weak to stumble, with false teaching. Besides that I think those who attempt to unsave other believers are doing the devils work.

Me, James, Paul, and Peter then I guess.

I don't get this 'trying to unsave you' thing.

Apply the words of scripture to yourself as is fitting. If that means you are not in the faith, or continuing in the faith WHAT IS THAT TO ME? How am I responsible for that?

You seem to be resisting pretty well what is being said here. How is it causing you to stumble?

I gotta be honest here. I did not realize this was the hot button it is in the church. I really didn't know this. I know it is among unbelievers. Why do believers get so uptight about this matter of obedience and make any suggestion about it equivalent to condemning? I'm perplexed by this. I really am.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

... when and if we really keep the Royal Law, we would never do or "practice" this sort of evil.

'Never'? Wake up and smell the coffee, lol.

But, yes, by pure definition, you are not being loving when you sin. But as I said, the Bible says it's about progress, not perfection. I say this for you...I say this for me. You're under God's grace just as I am. My exhortation to you would be to take full advantage of the mercy God has made available to us believers. That means be quick to seek God's forgiveness and get clean when you fail. That's what I do.

Well you can not take Gods mercy from me, but you can hurt a young believer with doctrines that cause them to doubt the salvation they have ask the Lord for.

My responses have been more than gracious and merciful to the struggling Christian. I give all Christians the same room for growth that I give myself.

Maybe the emotion is coming from the fact that most Christians seem to have trouble discerning the difference between a bad hair day in Christ, and the outright rejection of the forgiveness of God. They are quite different. There's a big difference between sinning in weakness and sinning in sheer rebellion against the grace of God offered to us in the forgiveness of sins.

The weak Christian clings to the horns of the alter and is kept safe despite his failures. The willful rebel is not. It is the sin of the willful rejection and rebellion against the forgiveness of God that puts us in danger of forfeiting the grace of God's salvation, not the weaknesses of growing up into the salvation we long for.

 

[George Muller]

... when and if we really keep the Royal Law, we would never do or "practice" this sort of evil.

'Never'? Wake up and smell the coffee, lol.

But, yes, by pure definition, you are not being loving when you sin. But as I said, the Bible says it's about progress, not perfection. I say this for you...I say this for me. You're under God's grace just as I am. My exhortation to you would be to take full advantage of the mercy God has made available to us believers. That means be quick to seek God's forgiveness and get clean when you fail. That's what I do.

Well you can not take Gods mercy from me, but you can hurt a young believer with doctrines that cause them to doubt the salvation they have ask the Lord for.

My responses have been more than gracious and merciful to the struggling Christian. I give all Christians the same room for growth that I give myself.

Maybe the emotion is coming from the fact that most Christians seem to have trouble discerning the difference between a bad hair day in Christ, and the outright rejection of the forgiveness of God. They are quite different. There's a big difference between sinning in weakness and sinning in sheer rebellion against the grace of God offered to us in the forgiveness of sins.

The weak Christian clings to the horns of the alter and is kept safe despite his failures. The willful rebel is not. It is the sin of the willful rejection and rebellion against the forgiveness of God that puts us in danger of forfeiting the grace of God's salvation, not the weaknesses of growing up into the salvation we long for.

Well not sure how you know if a weak brother or sister is reading your post at all times? But I am glad you would impart grace to those who hear you.

Eph 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't PRACTICE those sins that Paul mentioned.

Can anyone doubt that those who condemn others by these biblical standards are always ready to make an excuse for their sins but are more than ready to condemn others for the very things they do themselves.

Did you not see the allowance I extended to you to grow up into obedience according to your own place and relationship in Christ? If I had not done that, then I would be guilty of holding a harsher standard over you than I do myself. But as it is, I extend the same opportunity for mercy to you as a brother in Christ that I do to myself.

Well its not me that I am concerned with, its the young Christian trying to believe that God has secured them in His love, and these sort of doctrines that "unsave" believers are causing many to stumble and walk away from the confidence a believer should have in Gods unbroken love.

Ro 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord

This is true christian life, not all this doubt and nonsense about "unsaving" believers.

Yes, what Paul says is true for the believer--for him who has been justified in Christ. How does God justify the sinner? Can I expect to still be justified before God and have all that Paul said is true if I reject the faith in Christ's blood that does the justifying? By definition that makes me an unbeliever. The intercession of Christ, and which keeps us, is applied to us through faith in his blood.

If you're clinging to the hope of Christ's blood for the forgiveness of sins you're cool.

...and I do mean clinging. I've been a Christian for 27 years and it's becoming more and more apparent to me that the clinging is the only thing I've got going for me.

 

[George Muller]

Did you not see the allowance I extended to you to grow up into obedience according to your own place and relationship in Christ? If I had not done that, then I would be guilty of holding a harsher standard over you than I do myself. But as it is, I extend the same opportunity for mercy to you as a brother in Christ that I do to myself.

Well its not me that I am concerned with, its the young Christian trying to believe that God has secured them in His love, and these sort of doctrines that "unsave" believers are causing many to stumble and walk away from the confidence a believer should have in Gods unbroken love.

Ro 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord

This is true christian life, not all this doubt and nonsense about "unsaving" believers.

Yes, what Paul says is true for the believer--for him who has been justified in Christ. How does God justify the sinner? Can I expect to still be justified before God and have all that Paul said is true if I reject the faith in Christ's blood that does the justifying?

If you're clinging to the hope of Christ's blood for the forgiveness of sins you're cool.

Well if you feel the need to warn the unsaved or religious, which is often needed. One should be careful not to condemn the righteous young believer, with those in the deception of mans religion. The gospel in its simplicty builds up those who have faith in Christ, and is also made to tear down those who trust in mans ability.
I do not cling to a empty hope, I stand in the grace of the Almighty. This confidence belongs to all believers and those who teach these doctrines of "half-saved" "almost saved", "hope to be saved" etc.. are not in real faith.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The gospel in its simplicty builds up those who have faith in Christ...

YES! "Those who have faith in Christ". Not those who don't have faith in Christ. How do you lay hold of the manifest love of God except through faith?

I was going to hit on something in one of your other posts to highlight this, but decided not to (perhaps I've done enough damage, lol). But since you brought it up again...

I do not cling to a empty hope, I stand in the grace of the Almighty. This confidence belongs to all believers and those who teach these doctrines of "half-saved" "almost saved", "hope to be saved" etc.. are not in real faith.

You're saying the right things. It's all about faith. But what happens when we remove 'faith' from everything you've just said? Even you are conditioning the manifest love of God in the giving of salvation on faith. Is everything you just said true if I don't have faith in Christ?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Well, I've got a half completed carburator rebuild sitting out by the shed I started when it was still light outside that I need to pack up. Jeff, MarkT...unplug the coffee pot and put out the lights on your way out. See you tomorrow.