James 2 And OSAS - Part 2

[George Muller]

Tell James.

Really.

Well I think james would tell all those who attempt to "unsave" other believers, that you are breaking the Royal Law.

Jas 4:11 ¶ Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

So again, you guys seem to want to judge others by a standard you do not keep yourself? In this you are breaking the Royal Law.

You're plainly saying that James is contradicting himself in his own letter. Remember, this is not my argument. I'm simply showing what James himself said: A dead faith (one with no evidence of that faith attached) can NOT save. Yet OSAS says he turns right around and says it's unloving to say that to people. Amazing.

No the conflict is not with me, the conflict is with those who do not keep the Royal Law. For when one has learned to walk in love they understand both James statements. Now those who just talk about the Royal Law and try to judge others by its standard that they do not keep, will always be in conflict with the scriptures.

 

[reba]

Re: James 2 And OSAS

Joh_10:28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall anymanpluck them out of my hand.

Mat 7:22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These Scriptures are all the Words of our Lord... How do we balance them?... This topic is one that I have struggled with for years....seems I can find Scripture to support both views...

 

[Jethro Bodine]

One can not say they love God and live a life of sin.

If one repents, God will grant that one forgiveness.

Do you sin?
Or do sin less than others, and you think that makes you right with God?
Jas 4:11 ¶ Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

How is it that you are missing the element of 'repentance' in what he said?

The sinner who continues in his faith (not his unbelief) in the blood of Christ to keep him justified before God is the sinner who God lays no charge against, and whom no one else can lay a charge against. But the one who walks away from the blood? They're fair game.

 

[George Muller]

1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles--that a man has his father's wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed.
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. [B]1 Corinthians 5:4-5



JLB
[/B]

Yes destruction of the flesh, not the spirit. This man was restored to fellowship in the second epistle, he did not get "unsaved"

Without the action of turning him over to Satan, his spirit would have been lost. That is the point you seem to ignore.


JLB

It does not say that does it? You add that from your own opinion. As if God wants to unsave people that His Son died to save? God is not looking for reasons to unsave but has extended boundless grace to save all that will believe.

 

[JLB]

Do you sin? Or do sin less than others, and you think that makes you right with God?

What is my sin?

Jas 4:11 ¶ Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge. 12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

There is One Lawgiver who is able to destroy, therefore fear God and depart from iniquity!


JLB

 

[smaller]

James makes several interesting observations. James himself would decry those who seek to destroy other believers and shows the PREEMINENCE OF GOD in Christ in these matters as vastly Superior:

James 1:
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

Therein James decries you who seek Gods Wrath upon another. And that is exactly what you do when you seek to destroy another believer on 'any basis.' You are intending GODS WRATH upon them for eternity. To me that is a rather sick quest of faith.

When it comes to 'works' and 'faith' James makes this connection in James 2:

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The main issue that will always come into play with James is this: What constitutes 'sufficient works.' Nothing more than that question resides at the issue with James in his famous 'works=FAITH' rule, and YES this is a RULE that the other Gospel writers employ as well.

Paul uses this exact same standard here and makes this fact regarding faith 'the only thing that counts:'

Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love

The question that comes back into play on this matter then is 'what standard' is raised on this?

We know from both James and Paul that faith must be 'expressed' in love.

Let's see what John has to say about it:

1 John 4:7
Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.

Is there even one of you 'non-OSAS' believers here who would be satisfied with the measure that John gives to view 'who is a believer?'

I doubt it.

The 'non-OSAS' crowd is never satisfied with any measures of 'sufficiency' nor do they provide ANY.

They are however all quite certain that God might not save you.

s

 

[George Muller]

One can not say they love God and live a life of sin.

If one repents, God will grant that one forgiveness.

Do you sin?
Or do sin less than others, and you think that makes you right with God?
Jas 4:11 ¶ Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

How is it that you are missing the element of 'repentance' in what he said?

The sinner who continues in his faith (not his unbelief) in the blood of Christ to keep him justified before God is the sinner who God lays no charge against, and whom no one else can lay a charge against. But the one who walks away from the blood? They're fair game.

Well that is just your opinion,and it makes no biblical sense as smaller has pointed out.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Tell James.

Really.

Well I think james would tell all those who attempt to "unsave" other believers, that you are breaking the Royal Law.

Jas 4:11 ¶ Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

So again, you guys seem to want to judge others by a standard you do not keep yourself? In this you are breaking the Royal Law.

You're plainly saying that James is contradicting himself in his own letter. Remember, this is not my argument. I'm simply showing what James himself said: A dead faith (one with no evidence of that faith attached) can NOT save. Yet OSAS says he turns right around and says it's unloving to say that to people. Amazing.

No the conflict is not with me, the conflict is with those who do not keep the Royal Law. For when one has learned to walk in love they understand both James statements. Now those who just talk about the Royal Law and try to judge others by its standard that they do not keep, will always be in conflict with the scriptures.

But you did not answer the question. How does my failing to keep the royal law of scripture (assuming I'm doing that) somehow make a dead faith able to save? That's what the OSAS argument ultimately says--you really don't have to have proof of faith (works) to be saved, insisting faith without works CAN save. So enough of the talk about hypocrisy. Just explain how it is that a person can have a dead faith but still be saved, in complete contradiction to James. How does this work?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

One can not say they love God and live a life of sin.

If one repents, God will grant that one forgiveness.

Do you sin?
Or do sin less than others, and you think that makes you right with God?
Jas 4:11 ¶ Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

How is it that you are missing the element of 'repentance' in what he said?

The sinner who continues in his faith (not his unbelief) in the blood of Christ to keep him justified before God is the sinner who God lays no charge against, and whom no one else can lay a charge against. But the one who walks away from the blood? They're fair game.

Well that is just your opinion,and it makes no biblical sense as smaller has pointed out.

Help me change my opinion. How can I reject the blood of Christ and expect it to still be ministering on my behalf since the condition for it being applied to me is my trust in it to do that?

 

[George Muller]

There is One Lawgiver who is able to destroy, therefore fear God and depart from iniquity!

I guess you get to add to Gods Word now, to make a point you cannot make in the clear reading of the scriptures?

Yes add this part of a scripture, to another part, and ignore all context and then one can make a doctrine to unsave those God has sealed.

2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

It must be a sad life to have more faith in mans weakness, than in Gods Strength?

 

[JLB]

1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles--that a man has his father's wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed.
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. [B]1 Corinthians 5:4-5



JLB
[/B]

Yes destruction of the flesh, not the spirit. This man was restored to fellowship in the second epistle, he did not get "unsaved"

Without the action of turning him over to Satan, his spirit would have been lost. That is the point you seem to ignore.


JLB

It does not say that does it? You add that from your own opinion. As if God wants to unsave people that His Son died to save? God is not looking for reasons to unsave but has extended boundless grace to save all that will believe.

No Paul says it.

deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

If there was some other way, why would Paul be directed by the Holy Spirit, to take this action?

Why do you question the scriptures, to bring doubt on God's word.

Or, maybe you think without Paul having the church at Corinth take this action, that God would save him anyway?

It that the point of this doctrine?

JLB

 

[Elijah674]

Do you sin? Or do sin less than others, and you think that makes you right with God?

What is my sin?

Jas 4:11 ¶ Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge. 12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

There is One Lawgiver who is able to destroy, therefore fear God and depart from iniquity!


JLB

Which law do you refer to?? Its start, or its Finished ending? James 1:15 & 1 John 5:16-17? But these ones are True 'Brothers' are they not?

--Elijah

 

[smaller]

How is it that trusting in the blood of Christ, and then NOT trusting in the blood of Christ is not an example of the very thing that James said will cause us to NOT receive from the Lord? Explain.

You claim on one hand to trust and for all intents and purposes your 'brand of trust' is a trust that God in Christ might not save you.

IF you believe that passes for 'trust' what can I say other than 'it doesn't' by your own mouth.

s

 

[Jethro Bodine]

God is not looking for reasons to unsave but has extended boundless grace to save all that will believe.

You keep saying it, but OSAS insists we don't have to believe to stay in this grace God has provided.

 

[George Muller]

How is it that you are missing the element of 'repentance' in what he said?

The sinner who continues in his faith (not his unbelief) in the blood of Christ to keep him justified before God is the sinner who God lays no charge against, and whom no one else can lay a charge against. But the one who walks away from the blood? They're fair game.

Well that is just your opinion,and it makes no biblical sense as smaller has pointed out.

Help me change my opinion. How can I reject the blood of Christ and expect it to still be ministering on my behalf since the condition for it being applied to me is my trust in it to do that?

Like I said you make one false statement and then try to equate that statement with another to cover your error? I would suggest that you keep the royal law, and do not judge others by a standard you do not keep yourself. Then justice and understanding would spring forth from your heart.

 

[smaller]

The supposed Gospel message that says, in effect:

Believe that God loves you or He will eternally burn you alive forever has always struck me as more than a bit odd and quite entirely off the wall.

s

 

[George Muller]

God is not looking for reasons to unsave but has extended boundless grace to save all that will believe.

You keep saying it, but OSAS insists we don't have to believe to stay in this grace God has provided.

Like I said, I dont know what some call OSAS? But pointing to others errors is not an excuse to teach error.

 

[JLB]

I guess you get to add to Gods Word now, to make a point you cannot make in the clear reading of the scriptures?

Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity."

This is the second time you have tried to bring doubt on God's word, by saying that I'm adding to His word.

This is scripture!

Fear God! Depart from iniquity!


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How is it that trusting in the blood of Christ, and then NOT trusting in the blood of Christ is not an example of the very thing that James said will cause us to NOT receive from the Lord? Explain.

You claim on one hand to trust and for all intents and purposes your 'brand of trust' is a trust that God in Christ might not save you.

IF you believe that passes for 'trust' what can I say other than 'it doesn't' by your own mouth.

s

How are you getting this that I believe I am saved because I believe that if I stop believing God will not save me?

Let me set the record straight: I, and anyone else, is saved because they trust, and continue to trust, that the blood of Christ makes them legally justified before God in heaven.

Now, if you twist this into your weird 'I trust that God won't save me' again I will have no choice but to report it to the moderator. Got it?

Stop grasping and just answer the challenges to OSAS I and others are presenting here. You're leaving a lot of stuff on the table unanswered.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

God is not looking for reasons to unsave but has extended boundless grace to save all that will believe.

You keep saying it, but OSAS insists we don't have to believe to stay in this grace God has provided.

Like I said, I dont know what some call OSAS? But pointing to others errors is not an excuse to teach error.

Then make it clear what you believe: Can I stop believing in Christ and still be saved? Is OSAS true in this respect?