What's What With Baptism?

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

The issue over the importance, the purpose, and the very necessity of water baptism invariably comes up ever so often when any group of individuals that study the Bible share ideas. There never seems to be a resolution or at least a consensus reach in the end when dealing with this subject. Does the Bible clearly outline what baptism is, what it's for, and the like? Or, is it a subject that we can never come to an agreement on due to not having enough info to build a definitive Biblical case?

So for this thread, my goal is to see if we can drop some preconceptions and do all we can to get a clear understanding as it pertains to what the Bible says about baptism.

 

[Webb]

The Bible clearly defines what baptism is for and how it is to be performed and how many baptisms there are in our present day.

God bless,
w

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It's commanded.

Just do it.

Case closed.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Baptism is the public declaration of one's intent to repent and follow the Lord.

And depending on the sermon given before baptism, you might get a spiritual gift out of it.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Baptism is the public declaration of one's intent to repent and follow the Lord.

This is how I view baptism.
It is really that simple.

 

[JLB]

The Bible clearly defines what baptism is for and how it is to be performed and how many baptisms there are in our present day.

God bless,
w

How many would that be?


JLB

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

A little background.........

According to some historians, in first-century toward the beginning of the Christian era, Judaism began the practice of baptism. The Jews are said to have adopted the custom of baptizing proselytes seven days after their circumcision as a sort of rite designed by the priesthood to allow for non Jews to fulfilled the legal requirements of ritual purity. As "God-feareing" and "righteous" Gentiles expressed a desire to convert to Judaism, baptism, which was reported done as a naked immersion in a pool of flowing water was performed as a sign of the covenant given to Abraham. When the baptised person came out of the water, he was a then considered a true son of Israel and allowed access to the sacrifices in the Temple.

In the midst of the above practice having become commonplace among 1st century Jews, John the Baptizer came along preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins (Mark 1:4) that was too an immersion in water. His baptism seemed to be one for Jews as opposed to one that helped make people of the nations into Jews. Jesus was baptised by John, was tempted in the wilderness, and subsequently returned and traveled the Judean countryside to preach the good news of God, saying that the period had been fulfilled and the Kingdom of God is was near. Jesus urged his Jewish brethren to repent and believe in the good news (Mark 1:14-15). He also, through his disciples, did some baptising of His own (John 3:22). John, after explaining to those that told him about Jesus baptising that Jesus must increase while John descreased said the following: 'Why, the Father loves the Son, and He has entrusted everything into his hands; so, he who believes in the Son will have age-long life. However, those who disobey him won't see life; for, the wrath of God remains upon them. (John 3:35-36)'

In light of the fact that both John and then Jesus proclaimed the necessity of repentance and did or administered a baptism of repentance in light of the looming (at hand) Kingdom of God, it would seem that this baptismal rite was needed to qualify those 1st century Jews for a pass from the coming wrath of God and the potentially for a place in the Kingdom of God that was at hand.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

We fast forward to the Jewish Feast of Weeks (Pentacost) and we have Peter proclaiming the good news about Jesus in Acts 2 to all of his gathered countrymen that were travelors as well as locals, some of which apparently were the ones that wanted Jesus crucified. He ended his proclaimation by calling on them to repent and be baptized for the remission of their sins which apparently included the persecution and killing of Jesus as well as the acts mentioned by Jesus in Matthew 23:29-39 the Jews were guilty of. This repentance and baptism seems very much like what John and Jesus spoke about in their ministries though it had now progressed into a baptism in the name or based on the authority of Jesus.

 

[Webb]

The Bible clearly defines what baptism is for and how it is to be performed and how many baptisms there are in our present day.

God bless,
w

How many would that be?


JLB

Eph.4:5

 

[Guest]

Some say water baptism is the actual first birth from mothers womb.

 

[Free]

I think there is more going on in baptism than merely an outward declaration of an inward change or desire to follow the Lord. It includes those things but I don't think it stops there.

Rom 6:3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. (ESV)

It seems as though it is through baptism where the "old man" is removed and put to rest so that "we too might walk in newness of life."

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

What's frustrating about the baptism discussions I have witnessed and been a part of is that most participants don't look at all the Bible texts have to say on the matter. Either they will have a pet doctrine related to baptism and they will repeat said belief or other will will "go to" texts that they use to prop up their beliefs oftentimes totally ignoring anything that might be contrary.

So again, my goal is to see if we can drop some preconceptions and do all we can to get a clear understanding as it pertains to what the Bible says about baptism.

 

[Sparkey]

Re: What's What With Baptism? Bathe, Breathe, Burn

Bathe, breathe, burn.

This is what John the Baptist taught:

As the people were filled with expectation, and all were questioning in their hearts concerning John, whether he might be the Messiah, John answered all of them by saying, “I baptize you with water; but one who is more powerful than I is coming; I am not worthy to untie the thong of his sandals. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fork is in his hand, to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his granary; but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”

So, with many other exhortations, he proclaimed the good news to the people. But Herod the ruler, who had been rebuked by him because of Herodias, his brother’s wife, and because of all the evil things that Herod had done, added to them all by shutting up John in prison.

Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, the heaven was opened, and the Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven, “You are my Son, the Beloved; with you I am well pleased.”

We understand that the command to be baptized in water applies to us.
We understand that the Promise of the Father, which is the baptism in the Holy Spirit, applies to us.
Do we not understand that the baptism in fire applies?

Paul spoke of Baptisms:

<< Hebrews 6 >>
King James Bible
A Call to Maturity

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this will we do, if God permit.

Peter, who spoke of water baptism, also spoke of and understood what the Prophet Joel said about Pentecost and the Spirit (breath) of God. Peter understood and taught about the Baptisms that John spoke of:

12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
...
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

 

[Webb]

Re: What's What With Baptism? Bathe, Breathe, Burn

Eph.4:5

 

[Sparkey]

Eph 4:5 is true. But it does not dismiss other Scripture. Our job is to understand, not debate.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Re: What's What With Baptism? Bathe, Breathe, Burn

We understand that the command to be baptized in water applies to us. We understand that the Promise of the Father, which is the baptism in the Holy Spirit, applies to us. Do we not understand that the baptism in fire applies?

WHy do we take these as givens? What in the scriptures lets us know that water baptism or Holy Spirit baptism is applicable to us? We must be careful not to read things into scriptures based on ideas we or others have brought to the table.

As you quoted, according to Luke, John the baptizer said to his 1st century Judean audience that Jesus would increase while John decreased and that Jesus would baptize some of their number with Spirit as well as fire. What we must try to do is gather an understanding (as best we can) as to what John meant when he said these things. The best starting point for getting the best understanding is a look at the full context.

7 And as he (John) saw the crowds coming out to be baptized by him, he said: 'Children of vipers; Who has scared you into running from the coming rage? 8 Produce the type of fruit that shows you're ready for repentance. And don't say of yourselves, We have AbraHam as our father; because, I tell you that God has the power to raise children of AbraHam from these stones! 9 Why, the ax is now lying at the roots of the trees, and every tree that doesn't produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire!'
10 So the crowds asked him: 'Then, what should we do?'
11 And he replied:
'He that has two pairs of underclothes,
Should share them with he who has none.
And those who have something to eat,
Should do the very same thing.'
12 Why, even tax collectors came to be baptized. And they asked him: 'Teacher, what should we do?'
13 And he replied: 'Just collect a fair tax.'
14 Then, when those in the military asked him, 'What should we do?' he said:
'Don't harass or falsely accuse.
Be happy with just your provisions.'
15 And because the people were looking for [the Messiah], everyone was wondering this in their hearts, about John: 'Could he be the Anointed One?'
16 But John answered them all, saying:
'My part is to baptize in water.
But, someone that's greater is coming,
Whose sandals I'm unfit to untie;
And he'll baptize you people with Spirit and fire.
17 'His shovel is now in his hand,
And he'll sweep his threshing floor clean.
He'll take the wheat to his storehouse,
But, he'll burn the chaff with unquenchable fire.'
18 Yes, he said many encouraging things as he preached the good news to the people.

Remember both John and later Jesus and Jesus' disciples preached the necessity of repentance and did or administered a baptism of repentance in light of the looming (at hand) Kingdom of God and coming wrath. In the Luke 3 text, John begins by addressing the people's fear of the coming rage and immediately begins admonishing the people to repent. He baptized those that came to him and accepted his call to repent and begin practicing righteousness, fairness, and honesty. He then spoke about the Messiah (Jesus) and how Jesus was near and was preparing to get to work on the "threshing floor" separating the wheat from the chaff. He said that Jesus would burn the chaff with unquenchable fire after having said that Jesus would baptize with the Spirit and with fire. Based on the statement of John, a logical conclusion we may draw is that the baptism of the Spirit and with fire are used in contrast to one another with the baptism of the Spirit being favorable while the baptism of fire being a punishment or part of the wrath both Jesus and John warned their contemporaries about.

 

[Webb]

Eph 4:5 is true. But it does not dismiss other Scripture. Our job is to understand, not debate.

Ephesians 4:5= 1 baptism. What is it about that that we don't understand? One, uno, 1! One plus 0 = ONE. No debate intended. By the time Paul wrote Ephesians (about 65 AD) there was only one baptism. Either that or Paul led by the Holy Spirit was misguided.

God bless

 

[Sparkey]

Re: What's What With Baptism? Bathe, Breathe, Burn

WHy do we take these as givens?

Based on the statement of John, a logical conclusion we may draw...

Not sure what "we" you are talking about. It appears there can be no consensus. I respect your right to form your own opinion. When you ask, "What in the scriptures lets us know that water baptism or Holy Spirit baptism is applicable to us?" my ready reply Peter's statement uttered immediately after his being baptized in the Holy Ghost:

15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

He was speaking about what had just happened. Peter preached and by the Power that had been promised by Jesus, 3,000 souls were saved:

8 "But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

Peter had received the Promise of the Father on the day of Pentecost. He was baptized in the Holy Ghost that day. He stated that this (what others witnessed) was what Joel had prophesied about. Peter was asked by those who had been given ears to hear his message, "...what shall we do?" In pure milk of the word fashion Peter went on to explain, "“Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

But that was not all that he said. He spoke of the Promise of the Father. That same promise that had been given to him only 10 days prior at the time of the Ascension of Jesus: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about." Jesus left no doubt about what he meant and continued immediately to say, "For John baptized with (or in) water, but in a few days you will be baptized with (or in) the Holy Spirit.”

That is exactly what Peter declared and I see no reason to change what he said now!
"The promise (Baptism of the Holy Spirit) is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

 

[Sparkey]

Eph 4:5 is true. But it does not dismiss other Scripture. Our job is to understand, not debate.

Ephesians 4:5= 1 baptism. What is it about that that we don't understand? One, uno, 1! One plus 0 = ONE. No debate intended. By the time Paul wrote Ephesians (about 65 AD) there was only one baptism. Either that or Paul led by the Holy Spirit was misguided.

God bless

Bifurcation. Paul was speaking about the One baptism into the One faith. Sometimes we speak in general and sometimes we use technical terms. That does not mean that the person who spoke generally is misguided. Certainly Paul was not misguided as he was indeed Baptized in the Holy Spirit and spoke under the unction of the Holy Ghost when he said, "Forbid not to speak in tongues".

I don't think that Scripture has expiration dates assigned is all.

 

[Webb]

Eph 4:5 is true. But it does not dismiss other Scripture. Our job is to understand, not debate.

Ephesians 4:5= 1 baptism. What is it about that that we don't understand? One, uno, 1! One plus 0 = ONE. No debate intended. By the time Paul wrote Ephesians (about 65 AD) there was only one baptism. Either that or Paul led by the Holy Spirit was misguided.

God bless

Bifurcation. Paul was speaking about the One baptism into the One faith. Sometimes we speak in general and sometimes we use technical terms. That does not mean that the person who spoke generally is misguided. Certainly Paul was not misguided as he was indeed Baptized in the Holy Spirit and spoke under the unction of the Holy Ghost when he said, "Forbid not to speak in tongues".

I don't think that Scripture has expiration dates assigned is all.

Eph.4:5: ''ONE LORD, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM." While true we are "baptized into Christ", Gal.3:27, Eph.4:5 says nothing at all about what you have said. Even if it did it still said "one baptism" which means one, 1, uno, not 3.

If you don't think ''SCRIPTURE HAS EXPIRATION DATES" then I ask, how long has it been since you offered an animal sacrifice in keeping with the OT instruction etc., etc.

God bless