“The Romans Road†has a disastrous fork in the road!

[eddif]

Oops forgot to define GPS

ruah ha-qodesh Glorious Pentecost Spirit

The re-born spirit of our mind knows the destination. The whole trip is defined in his Word.

eddif

 

[Deborah13]

I guess I just do think differently.

IMHO the road that starts the journey to heaven is the road of Repentance. This is a bumpy road that reminds you of who you are in the flesh. Potholes, flat tires, engine problems are common (you just find yourself hitting the problems when you intend to avoid them).

After a time on the Repentance road you hear of the turnpike leading to heaven. Jesus is the gate to eternal life. Jesus paid the price for eternal life. If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins and cleanse us of all unrighteousness.

Romans 7:25
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Your GPS is fixed on the destination and the toll booth shows up (the mind).
Your flesh still has a few issues.

If you decide to not use the Jesus gate (price is free --Belief) then your journey of repentance just hit a snag.

Of course Mississippi folks do not have toll roads and so what could they know about all this. LOL

eddif

No you think not so differently.

 

[George Muller]

salvation is by grace (Ephesians 2.8), not of works (Ephesians 2.9).

I feel the above needs to be explained.

Obedience to God's commands, and co-operating with God and His Plan of Salvation,
are NOT to be considered as GOOD WORKS!

If this is NOT being done, one is in BIG trouble ...
1 John 1:8-10
“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just
to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.â€

BACs who are involved in HABITUAL SIN are also in VERY BIG TROUBLE!
(There are several passages which WARN against sinning habitually.)

Let me guess what the term "habitual" sin means? It means that God gives you unlimited mercy for your sins, but that mercy is limited for others that you deem to be sinning more than you? You know why God made the the fulfillment of all the law to be explained in that we love others as ourself? To purge His Church of this wicked hypocricy of man.

Mt 7:1 ¶ Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye

Jas 4:11 ¶ Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

 

[farouk]

Then what is considered good works? Non-Christians do good works such as treating others as you would treat yourself. So I guess leading people to the Cross and standing up for Christian principles would count as good works?

Hi jeff77:

This may be a useful verse; speaking to believers, Paul says:

'...it is God that worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure' (Philippians 2.13).

Blessings.

 

[John Zain]

I don't know ... Jesus has different rules than does Paul.

How are Paul's different than Jesus? I don't know this.

Yes, I've know this for about 30 years.
They both said very little about it ... it's easy to check out the verses.

 

[John Zain]

I thought to simply show that through Paul we might gain hope knowing that even this apostle, chosen by Jesus Himself, did not always manage to live obedient to his faith. But in admitting one's sinfulness, which we all inherited by Adam, and by asking God for forgiveness, it is in my opinion not impossible for God to be just and still have mercy on us, because "with God all things are possible".
Hence my intention was to soothe the despair some of us might feel while knowing that we want to please God, and make him sad instead. (At least I very often feel that way.)

What a wonderful saint you are! ... Just keep being led by the precious Holy Spirit,
which is FAR better than any intelligence, education, logic, or reasoning abilities
that anyone could possibly have!
May the Lord continue to bless you, and guide you into all Truth!

 

[smaller]

Let me guess what the term "habitual" sin means? It means that God gives you unlimited mercy for your sins, but that mercy is limited for others that you deem to be sinning more than you? You know why God made the the fulfillment of all the law to be explained in that we love others as ourself? To purge His Church of this wicked hypocricy of man.

Or to expose it...to RILE it up...to make the presence of evil so well known that it is beyond denial...

Even though the Pharisees had 'children of the devil' IN THEM Jesus cast out not a one from any of them...

To cast out means first, to REVEAL. Members of the aristocracy of hypocrisy are know by their complete inability to measure truthfully unto themselves.

What is the BEAM in the EYE?

Matthew 7:5
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

10 MILLION hypocrites will read that scripture and NONE of them will see it.

Every last one of them go to their graves exactly in this fashion:

Luke 18:11
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

John Zain appears to want to promote the burning alive forever of other believers for what? Sin? Not being 'as good as him?'

A sinner knows we have nothing worthy of SAVING...and therefore we hang our heads in appreciation of HIS Wonderous Divine Eternal MERCY....which endures forever.

Drink....FREELY...those who hang their heads to drink.

s

 

[John Zain]

Paul taught salvation by grace, through faith, not of works (Ephesians 2.8-9).
He didn't teach that true believers can lose their salvation.
The promise to believers in the Lord Jesus at the end of Romans 8 is very clear.

In the NT we have this incredible mixture of:
• Blessings
• Explanations
• Exhortations
• Warnings that the Blessings are conditional.

The simple Blessings are hooks to catch the little fishes.
Then Jesus Warns to first count the cost of discipleship.
Paul constantly gives Exhortations and encouragement.
And we are Warned that the Blessings are conditional.

What is very clear is you prefer to dwell only on the positive passages!

 

[farouk]

Paul taught salvation by grace, through faith, not of works (Ephesians 2.8-9).
He didn't teach that true believers can lose their salvation.
The promise to believers in the Lord Jesus at the end of Romans 8 is very clear.

In the NT we have this incredible mixture of:
• Blessings
• Explanations
• Exhortations
• Warnings that the Blessings are conditional.

The simple Blessings are hooks to catch the little fishes.
Then Jesus Warns to first count the cost of discipleship.
Paul constantly gives Exhortations and encouragement.
And we are Warned that the Blessings are conditional.

What is very clear is you prefer to dwell only on the positive passages!

I prefer to dwell on the Gospel of the grace of God. Grace means unmerited favor. Someone who continues to live a life of sin is rejecting the Gospel of the grace of God. But having been saved by grace, one doesn't start to merit it thereafter, supposedly.

 

[reba]

I don't know ... Jesus has different rules than does Paul.

How are Paul's different than Jesus? I don't know this.

Yes, I've know this for about 30 years.
They both said very little about it ... it's easy to check out the verses.

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[farouk]

The Romans Road, as it's called, is often used in witnessing.

 

[Drew]

Paul taught salvation by grace, through faith, not of works (Ephesians 2.8-9).

If I had a nickel for every time I have made the argument that this text is referring specifically to the works of the Law of Moses, and not to "good works" generally, I would be rich. And if I had a nickel for every time that argument has been ignored, I would be almost doubly wealthy.

Paul is not contradicting himself! He tells us in Romans 2 that final salvation is indeed based on how we have actually lived. Watch what people do with Romans 2 - they come up with all manner of exceedingly implausible and awkward explanations, the most common being that, in that chapter, Paul is speaking "hypothetically". Well, what is the support for that? I suggest there is none.

Ever hopeful that someone will actually take the following argument seriously, I try yet again:

Here is Ephesians 2:8-9 from the NASB:

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that (Y)no one may boast.

In verse 9, the writer is denying the salvific power of doing the works of Law of Moses, and not the more general category of “good works”.

A point of method: It simply will not do to declare up front that the writer is talking about good works here. That begs the question, since the term “works” is not qualified by the term “good” or anything else that would rule out the possibility that the “works” of the Law of Moses is the subject. The fair-minded reader needs to ask which of the following views makes more sense given both the local context and the broader context of the whole letter:

1. The salvific power of doing good works is being denied;

2. The salvific power of doing the works of the Law of Moses is being denied.

Explanation 2 is the one that makes sense in light of what the writer goes on to say in verse 11.

Proceeding to an examination of Ephesians 2:11 and following, Paul uses the "therefore" to show us that he is now going to fill out the implications of his denial of salvation by “works”

Therefore remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

The writer is clearly now talking about the Jew-Gentile divide, and how the actions of Jesus have brought Jew and Gentile together. Doing the works of Law of Moses, of course, is what demarcates Jew from Gentile in terms of covenant membership and shuts the Gentile out of citizenship in Israel. The writer continues:

14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations

How much more clear could the writer be? What has divided the Jew from the Gentile and been the barrier? Good works? Obviously not, both Jew and Gentile are on “the same side” of any good works barrier (first 20 or so verses of Romans 3). It is doing the works of Law of Moses, of course, that is the very thing that the Jew might otherwise boast in and which is now being declared to not be salvific.

IMPORTANT POSTSCRIPT: None of the above can be legitimately read as denying Paul's teaching that we are saved by grace. I will not get into the details in this post, but Paul embraces both that we are saved by grace and that our final justification is based on "good works". When the time comes, I will offer the relevant arguments about how these two seemingly contradictory positions are, in a very real and Biblically defensible sense, fully correct.

 

[farouk]

Drew: .... and Paul to the Philppians says: 'it is God that worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure' (Philppians 2.13).

Even when born again believers are thus enabled to obey Him in faith, it's still not meritorious.

 

[Drew]

Even when born again believers are thus enabled to obey Him in faith, it's still not meritorious.

I basically agree with you on this point. Paul basically believes that it is the Holy Spirit that generates "saving good works". But we need to respect the nuances of Paul's argument and not deny what he teaches in Romans 2 (and elsewhere): the thing that will determine whether we participate in the resurrection of the redeemed is, yes, how we have lived. As Paul says in Romans 2:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

But, again, I agree with what I believe you are saying: We not merit our salvation, even if it is indeed based on "good works" produced by God through us.

 

[farouk]

Even when born again believers are thus enabled to obey Him in faith, it's still not meritorious.

I basically agree with you on this point. Paul basically believes that it is the Holy Spirit that generates "saving good works". But we need to respect the nuances of Paul's argument and not deny what he teaches in Romans 2 (and elsewhere): the thing that will determine whether we participate in the resurrection of the redeemed is, yes, how we have lived. As Paul says in Romans 2:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

But, again, I agree with what I believe you are saying: We not merit our salvation, even if it is indeed based on "good works" produced by God through us.

Drew:

Works follow (Ephesians 2.10); they don't achieve merit.

 

[Drew]

Works follow (Ephesians 2.10); they don't achieve merit.

Well, let's be careful. Paul means what he says:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

So works are indeed the criteria for getting eternal life. But, again, I agree that we cannot take "personal" credit for those works since they are generated by the Holy Spirit (this is addressed substantively in Romans 8).

Perhaps we are quibbling over terminology. But I do think we need to respect what Paul actually writes in Romans 2: it is the good works our lives have evidenced that are the criteria for the receipt of eternal life. Again, we arguably do nothing "meritorious" precisely because it is the Spirit that generates the works.

 

[farouk]

Works follow (Ephesians 2.10); they don't achieve merit.

Well, let's be careful. Paul means what he says:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

So works are indeed the criteria for getting eternal life. But, again, I agree that we cannot take "personal" credit for those works since they are generated by the Holy Spirit (this is addressed substantively in Romans 8).

Perhaps we are quibbling over terminology. But I do think we need to respect what Paul actually writes in Romans 2: it is the good works our lives have evidenced that are the criteria for the receipt of eternal life. Again, we arguably do nothing "meritorious" precisely because it is the Spirit that generates the works.

Paul in Romans 2 says that there is no respect of persons. If Jews who had all their spiritual privileges and yet waste their lives and indulge themselves like Gentiles, then their spiritual privileges are no use to them. But if a Gentile, who did not inherit the spiritual privileges that Jews had, lives a repentance life of faith, then his or her spiritual character is more blessed than that of Jews who have turned aside.

It's not about personal merit. Faith is the key.

'Not of works' (Ephesians 2.9) really does have wide application as regards the Gospel.

Romans 4.5 also has a lot of relevance.

 

[Drew]

Paul in Romans 2 says that there is no respect of persons. If Jews who had all their spiritual privileges and yet waste their lives and indulge themselves like Gentiles, then their spiritual privileges are no use to them. But if a Gentile, who did not inherit the spiritual privileges that Jews had, lives a repentance life of faith, then his or her spiritual character is more blessed than that of Jews who have turned aside.

Paul does say this, but he also says this:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

Please address this text directly. Do you or do you not agree with me that it is a clear statement that eternal life is granted according to what we have done.

 

[Drew]

'Not of works' (Ephesians 2.9) really does have wide application as regards the Gospel.

I have already dealt with this. Paul (or whoever wrote Ephesians is referring to doing the works of the Law of Moses here. Big difference. The works of the Law of Moses were seen by Jews as a way of setting them apart as a special people. The concern in Ephesians 2 is a perceived ethnic privilege on the part of Jews who followed the Law of Moses, not a denial of what Paul otherwise affirms in Romans 2:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

 

[farouk]

Paul in Romans 2 says that there is no respect of persons. If Jews who had all their spiritual privileges and yet waste their lives and indulge themselves like Gentiles, then their spiritual privileges are no use to them. But if a Gentile, who did not inherit the spiritual privileges that Jews had, lives a repentance life of faith, then his or her spiritual character is more blessed than that of Jews who have turned aside.

Paul does say this, but he also says this:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

Please address this text directly. Do you or do you not agree with me that it is a clear statement that eternal life is granted according to what we have done.

Drew:

We should look at the balance of Paul's teaching as a whole, including in Romans.

Romans 4.5 is important: 'But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.'

Paul speaks of 'the obedience of faith'. But the obedience of faith is not meritorious works as per Ephesians 2.9.