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“The Law of Sin”

BigSodaExposer said:
Oh really? In Mathew 5:20 Jesus said "
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven
"

What is righteousness? Fearing the Lord and obeying his commandments. (In the old testament anyway). But a Christians righteousness comes from Jesus Christ. The spilling of his blood. And the new covenant/testament he made at the last supper. Believing in him as their lord and savior. No one can be perfect, but Jesus was. Jesus set the bar so high with the thought crimes - 1.looking on a woman with lust 2.thinking harmful thoughts about your brother. (which everyone is guilty of) That now righteousness is impossible to obtain without him. I can see where jews have a problem with this.

John 15:10 Jesus says "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love" What did Jesus command? John 15:12 "This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you."

Then we have the case of the adulteress that was brought to Jesus by the pharissees. John 8:7-11 "
So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more"

The punishment for adultery in the old testament is to be stripped naked/humiliated in public, then stoned to death, then have your jewels taken (check daughter of zion). Jesus said to go and sin no more. Thats not saying that we get a free pass on adultery. The way I personally took this was like Jesus was a cop. He had the authority, and he gave her a pass. Like the cop that gets you for speeding and lets you off with a women.

Why did Jesus do this? Because he was HUMAN. This is echoed in the parable about the farmer who had 100 sheep and lost one and went to look for it leaving the 99 behind. And if he finds the ONE, he will be more happy than the 99 he left behind. This is clearly not logical. As Spock would say on Star Trek "the needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few...or the one" Not logical, but is it IS human.
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Chopper said:
Like the cop that gets you for speeding and lets you off with a women.
Lets you off with a woman?
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Thanks for pointing that out. I meant to say warning instead of woman. I have fixed it now.
 
Chopper said:
Like the cop that gets you for speeding and lets you off with a women.
Lets you off with a woman?
Click to expand...

Last time I got stopped for speeding, I didn't get no woman.
13pensando.gif
 
BigSodaExposer said:
Oh really? In Mathew 5:20 Jesus said "
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven
"

What is righteousness? Fearing the Lord and obeying his commandments. (In the old testament anyway). But a Christians righteousness comes from Jesus Christ. The spilling of his blood. And the new covenant/testament he made at the last supper. Believing in him as their lord and savior. No one can be perfect, but Jesus was. Jesus set the bar so high with the thought crimes - 1.looking on a woman with lust 2.thinking harmful thoughts about your brother. (which everyone is guilty of) That now righteousness is impossible to obtain without him. I can see where jews have a problem with this.

John 15:10 Jesus says "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love" What did Jesus command? John 15:12 "This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you."

Then we have the case of the adulteress that was brought to Jesus by the pharissees. John 8:7-11 "
So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more"

The punishment for adultery in the old testament is to be stripped naked/humiliated in public, then stoned to death, then have your jewels taken (check daughter of zion). Jesus said to go and sin no more. Thats not saying that we get a free pass on adultery. The way I personally took this was like Jesus was a cop. He had the authority, and he gave her a pass. Like the cop that gets you for speeding and lets you off with a warning.

Why did Jesus do this? Because he was HUMAN. This is echoed in the parable about the farmer who had 100 sheep and lost one and went to look for it leaving the 99 behind. And if he finds the ONE, he will be more happy than the 99 he left behind. This is clearly not logical. As Spock would say on Star Trek "the needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few...or the one" Not logical, but is it IS human.
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Living as a justified believer in the Lord Jesus, and living as a Jew under the Old Testament law are distinct.

Blessings.
 
farouk said:
Living as a justified believer in the Lord Jesus, and living as a Jew under the Old Testament law are distinct.

Blessings.
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John 4:9-10 "
Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.
Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water."
 
BigSodaExposer said:
Jesus set the bar so high with the thought crimes - 1.looking on a woman with lust 2.thinking harmful thoughts about your brother. (which everyone is guilty of)
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But the bar was already set that high:

"17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife or his male servant or his female servant or his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”" (Exodus 20:17 NASB)

"17 ‘You shall not hate your fellow countryman in your heart... " (Leviticus 15:17 NASB)


 
The law of Moses is how we know what sin is. It is the 'law' that gives strength to the 'law of sin and death'. That's why it was sent into the world--to magnify and provoke the sin nature of fallen man. So he can be justly and rightly condemned without defense or excuse. So he can then be saved by God's mercy.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
The church doesn't need to use a misguided argument that the gentiles were never under the law in order to defend her irrational fear of the law. No people, including even the Jews themselves, are under the letter and condemnation of the law who are in Christ.

That being true, there is no reason to bend over backwards to make 'law' not mean the law of Moses where the New Testament is contextually speaking about the law. (That is what this thread is about, right?)
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No! This thread is not about the law (of Moses).

It is about the law of sin.

Why in the world would you consider that it is misguided to teach the Church the truth of the scriptures, which teach us that we are not under the law of Moses.

Gentiles were never under the law, how much more so, in Christ.

What is misguided, is for gentile Christians to think and teach we are obligated to keep the law.

Paul calls that "another" Gospel.

JLB
 
JLB said:
No! This thread is not about the law (of Moses).

It is about the law of sin.

Why in the world would you consider that it is misguided to teach the Church the truth of the scriptures, which teach us that we are not under the law of Moses.

Gentiles were never under the law, how much more so, in Christ.

What is misguided, is for gentile Christians to think and teach we are obligated to keep the law.

Paul calls that "another" Gospel.

JLB
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As well as Romans and Galatians, there is Peter's vision in Acts and the episode with Cornelius, where the fact that Gentile believers in the Lord Jesus are not under the law, is stressed.

Blessings.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
The law of Moses is how we know what sin is. It is the 'law' that gives strength to the 'law of sin and death'. That's why it was sent into the world--to magnify and provoke the sin nature of fallen man. So he can be justly and rightly condemned without defense or excuse. So he can then be saved by God's mercy.
Click to expand...


The law of Moses is NOT how we know what sin is.

The was no law of Moses when Abraham walked with God, or Job or Enoch or Issac, Jacob or the twelve sons of Israel.

Abraham did not learn from the law of Moses, rather he learned from the Lord, which is how faith is produced.

Endless studying of the law of Moses by the unbelieving Jews today is eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Learning what is good and evil from a source other than God.

They all study Moses and reject Christ.

Most of the new testament Churches had no scrolls of the old testament, and if they did, most couldn't read, and certainly couldn't read Hebrew.




JLB
 
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If you walk in the light as He is in the light, the blood of Jesus [continually] cleanses you of all sin.


The emphasis is walking with God, not studying the law.


JLB
 
JLB said:
If you walk in the light as He is in the light, the blood of Jesus [continually] cleanses you of all sin.


The emphasis is walking with God, not studying the law.


JLB
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The law is like a mirror.

The mirror doesn't change the person's life.

Religious people who pride themselves at looking continually at the law, remind me of a teenaged girl who spends excessive time looking at the mirror. Nothing wrong with the law. Nothing wrong with the mirror. Excessive emphasis, however, is definitely wrong.
 
JLB said:
No! This thread is not about the law (of Moses).

It is about the law of sin.
Click to expand...
The law of Moses is what defines the sin in the 'law of sin' that we die by.

I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”
11 ...sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.
(Romans 7:7,11 NASB)

That's what 'law of sin' means. You violate God's standard of righteousness in the law...you die. So I not only think about the 10 Commandments in that, but so much more of the righteousness of God revealed in the law.

JLB said:
Why in the world would you consider that it is misguided to teach the Church the truth of the scriptures, which teach us that we are not under the law of Moses.
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We aren't under the letter, nor the condemnation of the law of Moses. But that doesn't mean we don't have an obligation to the righteous requirements of the law of Moses. In regard to the OP, there is no reason at all to not think 'law of Moses' when we hear the word 'law'. But sadly, the church has been taught to go into a blind rage at the mere mention of the word. I blame it on the Protestant Church's misunderstanding of Paul's grace/law-works teaching. Somehow any suggestion of works categorically and without exception equates to 'trying to be justified by works'. How stupid.


JLB said:
Gentiles were never under the law, how much more so, in Christ.
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Throughout history, the righteousness of the law was to be lived out by any and all of God's people. When gentiles turned to the God of Israel in the time of the first covenant, they kept the law to the extent they could and were allowed to. This is why Paul encountered so many 'God fearing gentiles' on his missionary journeys, who he then turned to Christ.

But it isn't important that the gentiles who turned to God kept the law of Moses. Because that is not why Christians are obligated to the righteous requirements of the law through the new way of the Spirit and faith in Christ.


JLB said:
What is misguided, is for gentile Christians to think and teach we are obligated to keep the law.
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You are obligated to uphold the righteousness of the law of Moses, not the letter of the law (the old way).

Any Christian who does not uphold the righteousness of the law through the new way of faith in Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit will not see the kingdom of God.


JLB said:
Paul calls that "another" Gospel.
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No, no. The gospel that Paul calls another gospel is the gospel that says a man is justified by works of the law. This is so basic I thought surely you would know this. I'm surprised.

Upholding the righteousness of the law through the new way of faith (not the old way of the letter) does not equate to trying to be justified by the law. But I know the church does not understand this. They have invented many doctrines that protect them from the false threat that somehow any and all mention of 'the law' instantly and without exception means you think a man is justified by works of the law. How ridiculous. But that's just where the church has come to in these end days. As a result we have a church that thinks it will indeed be saved by a faith that does not work, in complete and utter contradiction to James.
 
farouk said:
As well as Romans and Galatians, there is Peter's vision in Acts and the episode with Cornelius, where the fact that Gentile believers in the Lord Jesus are not under the law, is stressed.

Blessings.
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That is, we are not under the condemnation of the law, nor the letter of the law. But faith in Christ does uphold the righteousness of the law...in the new way of the Spirit and faith in Christ, not the old way of the letter.

Don't be afraid to think 'law of Moses' when the NT talks about 'law'. Just know the facts. It will dissolve this irrational, blind, fear about the law that the church has these days.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
The law of Moses is what defines the sin in the 'law of sin' that we die by.

I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”
11 ...sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.
(Romans 7:7,11 NASB).
Click to expand...


The law of sin and death was introduced to mankind in the garden of Eden when Adam violated God's command to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

The law of sin and death has no more to do with the law of Moses than the law of gravity.

Both were in the earth before there was a law of Moses that was added.

Death was passed to all mankind because of Adam's transgression.

The law of Moses was given specifically to the children of Israel, which distinctly separated them from the Gentiles.

Gentiles were never under the law of Moses.

JLB
 
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