“The Law of Sin”

[Jethro Bodine]

The law of Moses is NOT how we know what sin is.

Your argument is with scripture, not me. Paul plainly said the law is how he knew what sin was. It's a codified indictment against mankind. In fact, that's why God sent it...to thoroughly and completely, without defense or excuse, condemn mankind in his sin.

26 “Take this book of the law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may remain there as a witness against you." (Deuteronomy 31:26 NASB)

19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God..." (Romans 3: NASB)

"...in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful." (Romans 7:13 NASB)

22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe." (Galatians 3:22 NASB)

The was no law of Moses when Abraham walked with God, or Job or Enoch or Issac, Jacob or the twelve sons of Israel.

Knowledge of sin was in the world, this we know. The law codified this knowledge, and even increased it, and removed all opportunity for debate or discussion about the matter (see scriptures above) so that man can be justly and rightly, and thoroughly condemned. In order that he might turn to God and be saved.

Abraham did not learn from the law of Moses, rather he learned from the Lord, which is how faith is produced.

This is one of those invented arguments to avoid the truth that it is okay to read the law and learn the righteousness of God and that not equate to a works gospel.

Endless studying of the law of Moses by the unbelieving Jews today is eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

No, I'm pretty sure sinning is what eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is.

Learning what is good and evil from a source other than God.

They all study Moses and reject Christ.

What about the ones who studied Moses and DIDN'T reject Christ?

39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.41 I do not receive glory from men;42 but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves.43 I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him.44 How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?45 Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope.46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?” (John 5:39-47 NASB)

You can see it was NOT them studying the scriptures, or even that they read words of the law, that caused unbelieving Jews to miss the Christ. It was their unwillingness to come to Him through their lack of love for God. If they had believed Moses they would have believed Jesus.

Church, enough of this ridiculous fear of the law.

Most of the new testament Churches had no scrolls of the old testament, and if they did, most couldn't read, and certainly couldn't read Hebrew.

Whether you read it, or hear it. It's still the law of Moses.

 

[JLB]

That is, we are not under the condemnation of the law, nor the letter of the law. But faith in Christ does uphold the righteousness of the law...in the new way of the Spirit and faith in Christ, not the old way of the letter.

Don't be afraid to think 'law of Moses' when the NT talks about 'law'. Just know the facts. It will dissolve this irrational, blind, fear about the law that the church has these days.

We as gentiles are not under the law.

We as Christians are not under the law.

19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; 20 and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law;
1 Corinthians 9:19-21

We are all under the law of God.

We are not under the law of Moses that was added til Christ should come, for the natural children of Israel.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Death was passed to all mankind because of Adam's transgression.

And the commandment exposes the penalty of Adam's sin in all of us.

"7...I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died..." (Romans 7:7-9 NASB)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We as gentiles are not under the law.

We as Christians are not under the law.

19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; 20 and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law;
1 Corinthians 9:19-21

We are all under the law of God.

We are not under the law of Moses that was added til Christ should come, for the natural children of Israel.


JLB

This is what 'not having the law' means:

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts..." (Romans 2:14 NASB)

He's talking about who has a knowledge of the law, and who does not, not who has to keep it and who does not. It's interesting to note that the law you are so sure is not for gentiles in any way shape or form is what Paul says some gentiles show they have written on their hearts.


You're really beginning to sound like a broken record now and destroying the spirit of this thread. You've said all this already. You need to find the courage to just let your argument rest. There's another folder for the kind of tit for tat you're indulging in here. I won't be addressing repetitious arguments anymore.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The law is like a mirror.

The mirror doesn't change the person's life.

Religious people who pride themselves at looking continually at the law, remind me of a teenaged girl who spends excessive time looking at the mirror. Nothing wrong with the law. Nothing wrong with the mirror. Excessive emphasis, however, is definitely wrong.

I wonder, does 'intently' count as excessive emphasis on looking in the mirror of scripture?

"22 But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror;24 for once he has looked at himself and gone away, he has immediately forgotten what kind of person he was.25 But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does." (James 2:22-25 NASB)

But, anyway, what you said is hardly the problem in the church today. What we have is more of what James is talking about--the opposite extreme--a church that thinks it unnecessary to study the righteous requirements of God because they have been taught that 'faith apart from works' means justification and salvation are so utterly separated from what you do that your obedience or your disobedience plays no part in your salvation whatsoever. It's all a part of this 'I'm saved (by faith alone) and there's nothing I can do about it' thinking that grips the church.

But as it is, we have some people believing that just to look into the law is nothing short of a works salvation (James says to do that intently). We need not be afraid to see 'law of Moses' when we see the word 'law' in the NT. Faith in Christ most certainly does uphold the righteousness of the law of Moses, not nullifies it as if it doesn't have to be upheld anymore.

 

[netchaplain]

Hi NetChaplin,

Nice synopsis !

I've recently considered being "under the law" ( as mentioned by Paul ) is the position all unbelievers are in both Gentile and Jew. There were Jews who lived within the constraints of the Mosaic law but weren't "under the law" per se. ie. pre- Christ faithful Jewish believers. This also means pre-Christ believers were under grace. What do you think ?

All of Abraham's posterity (blood descendants) was under the Mosaic Covenant (TC's/Levitical ordinances) from the time of the giving of the TC's until Christ. The Israelite who is still in unbelief since Jesus, is without the MC, but not without union with God, because He has not "cast away His people" (Rom 11:1, 2). They are just out of fellowship with Him, until He reestablishes it latter.

 

[agua.]

All of Abraham's posterity (blood descendants) was under the Mosaic Covenant (TC's/Levitical ordinances) from the time of the giving of the TC's until Christ. The Israelite who is still in unbelief since Jesus, is without the MC, but not without union with God, because He has not "cast away His people" (Rom 11:1, 2). They are just out of fellowship with Him, until He reestablishes it latter.

So would you say the pre- Christ Jewish believers ( ie. the " circumcised of the heart, by the Spirit " Jew ) were under grace ?

 

[netchaplain]

So would you say the pre- Christ Jewish believers ( ie. the " circumcised of the heart, by the Spirit " Jew ) were under grace ?

Hi A - Good inquiry! Many "found grace" in God's sight, and therefore had fellowship with God, but it was not one that could "draw near," for the veil between God and man was not "taken away" until Christ. Thus, the pre-Cross fellowship was of the "Law," and the post-Cross is of grace: "For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ" (John 1:17).

 

[agua.]

Hi A - Good inquiry! Many "found grace" in God's sight, and therefore had fellowship with God, but it was not one that could "draw near," for the veil between God and man was not "taken away" until Christ. Thus, the pre-Cross fellowship was of the "Law," and the post-Cross is of grace: "For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ" (John 1:17).

Thanks NC I'm still a little confused though because David seemed to fully understand God's grace and had a close relationship "outside" of the MC. ie he knew God didn't hold sin against him Psalms 32 and he knew he could "draw near" to God Psalm 73 ate the Temple bread etc.

God is good.

 

[netchaplain]

Thanks NC I'm still a little confused though because David seemed to fully understand God's grace and had a close relationship "outside" of the MC. ie he knew God didn't hold sin against him Psalms 32 and he knew he could "draw near" to God Psalm 73 ate the Temple bread etc.

God is good.

regardless of how close we think David or anyone was with God, it's incomparable to the closeness of one in Christ, which is "within" (Heb 6:19) and "through the veil" (10:20).

John Gill-- "Done through the vail, that is to say, his flesh; the human nature of Christ, through which the way to heaven is opened, renewed, and consecrated, is compared to the vail of the tabernacle, Exodus 26:31 the matter of which that was made, was fine twined linen, which the Jews {y} say was of thread six times doubled; which may denote the holiness of Christ's human nature; the strength, courage, and steadfastness of it, under all its sorrows and sufferings; and the purity and duration of His righteousness."

 

[agua.]

regardless of how close we think David or anyone was with God, it's incomparable to the closeness of one in Christ, which is "within" (Heb 6:19) and "through the veil" (10:20).

John Gill-- "Done through the vail, that is to say, his flesh; the human nature of Christ, through which the way to heaven is opened, renewed, and consecrated, is compared to the vail of the tabernacle, Exodus 26:31 the matter of which that was made, was fine twined linen, which the Jews {y} say was of thread six times doubled; which may denote the holiness of Christ's human nature; the strength, courage, and steadfastness of it, under all its sorrows and sufferings; and the purity and duration of His righteousness."

Cool ! Thanks.

 

[netchaplain]

Cool ! Thanks.

Welcome, and I like posting John Gill's comments because I believe His is the most trusted to me most of the time, and I want others to desire the use of a good commentary. You'll progress much quicker!!

 

[JLB]

Jethro said -

What about the ones who studied Moses and DIDN'T reject Christ?

39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.41 I do not receive glory from men;42 but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves.43 I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him.44 How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?45 Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope.46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?” (John 5:39-47 NASB)

You can see it was NOT them studying the scriptures, or even that they read words of the law, that caused unbelieving Jews to miss the Christ. It was their unwillingness to come to Him through their lack of love for God. If they had believed Moses they would have believed Jesus.

Church, enough of this ridiculous fear of the law.

Jesus said it as plain as day, but you seemed to have missed it -

You search the scriptures for in them you think you have eternal life...

The illiterate Gentile believer in the first century who believed the Gospel and was saved, yet never read the old testament scriptures, had eternal life because he knew Christ, though he never knew what was in Moses law.

for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves.

We Gentiles who love God and love their neighbor, do so because they God's law written on their heart.

The things in the law that we are to

This is what 'not having the law' means:

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts..." (Romans 2:14 NASB)

He's talking about who has a knowledge of the law, and who does not, not who has to keep it and who does not. It's interesting to note that the law you are so sure is not for gentiles in any way shape or form is what Paul says some gentiles show they have written on their hearts.


You're really beginning to sound like a broken record now and destroying the spirit of this thread. You've said all this already. You need to find the courage to just let your argument rest. There's another folder for the kind of tit for tat you're indulging in here. I won't be addressing repetitious arguments anymore.

Yes, this thread is about the law of sin and death, and is not about the law of Moses.

The law of Moses is a complete law that was added, and incorporates the Levitical Priesthood with the animal sacrifices and feast days, as well as the requirements to put to death those that violated the Sabbath.

As Jesus said, not one jot or tittle is to pass from the law...

Its all or nothing.

The children of Israel were not given an option to pick and choose which parts to keep.

When your are able to list the requirements of the law that Christians are to keep, then there will be some ground for an enlightening discussion.

The work of The Law is to love God and Love your neighbor, to do unto others as you would have them do unto you.


JLB

 

[JLB]

I wonder, does 'intently' count as excessive emphasis on looking in the mirror of scripture?

"22 But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror;24 for once he has looked at himself and gone away, he has immediately forgotten what kind of person he was.25 But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does." (James 2:22-25 NASB)

But, anyway, what you said is hardly the problem in the church today. What we have is more of what James is talking about--the opposite extreme--a church that thinks it unnecessary to study the righteous requirements of God because they have been taught that 'faith apart from works' means justification and salvation are so utterly separated from what you do that your obedience or your disobedience plays no part in your salvation whatsoever. It's all a part of this 'I'm saved (by faith alone) and there's nothing I can do about it' thinking that grips the church.

But as it is, we have some people believing that just to look into the law is nothing short of a works salvation (James says to do that intently). We need not be afraid to see 'law of Moses' when we see the word 'law' in the NT. Faith in Christ most certainly does uphold the righteousness of the law of Moses, not nullifies it as if it doesn't have to be upheld anymore.

The perfect law of liberty is not the law of Moses, which the apostles themselves called a yoke of bondage, to which Christ came to redeem the children of Israel from.

But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses...
8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they." Acts 15:5,8-11

These Pharisee's believed, which means they were not referring to animal sacrifices, but the rest of the law, ie; ceremonial washing, no pork, feast days, Sabbaths, circumcision...

The same rules that Messianic Judaism requires their people to adhere to.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

All of Abraham's posterity (blood descendants) was under the Mosaic Covenant (TC's/Levitical ordinances) from the time of the giving of the TC's until Christ.

The covenant of the Ten Commandments has passed away. It has been replaced with a New Covenant--but a Covenant that still upholds, not nullifies, the requirements of the first covenant:

8 Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery; You shall not murder; You shall not steal; You shall not covet”; and any other commandment, are summed up in this word, “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore, love is the fulfilling of the law. (Romans 13:8-10 NASB)

So if the requirements are the same (the Ten C's for example) then what changed then? Obviously, the WAY we uphold the requirements of the law. The new way of 'love working through faith' (Galatians 5:6) is how the law is upheld, not removed as the Church insists. What got removed was the covenant those requirements were couched in, not the requirements themselves.

Christ himself said he did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it:

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." (Matthew 5:17 NASB)

This being true, why does the Church insist the law was abolished? A law that is not abolished is a law that still has to be fulfilled. Faith in Christ is how we do that. That is the new WAY we 'keep' the requirements--not the letter--of the law of Moses in this New Covenant.

Faith in Christ is how we 'keep', for example, the Passover/Feast of Unleavened Bread (1 Corinthians 5:7-8), the Sabbath Rest (Hebrews 4:9-11), and the Day of Atonement/Law of the veil (Hebrews 9:24-25, 10:19-20). Especially note how the author speaks of Christ being a NEW way into the Holy of Holies.

The Israelite who is still in unbelief since Jesus, is without the MC, but not without union with God, because He has not "cast away His people" (Rom 11:1, 2). They are just out of fellowship with Him, until He reestablishes it latter.

It has to be understood that you are talking about the nation of Israel as a whole, not individual Jews who died in their unbelief. The gift that is irrevocable is in regard to the people of Israel as a whole. We know from Biblical prophecy that the people alive in Israel at the end of the age will acknowledge the Christ. The nation will be redeemed at that time.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...for the veil between God and man was not "taken away" until Christ. Thus, the pre-Cross fellowship was of the "Law," and the post-Cross is of grace: "For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ" (John 1:17).

What got 'taken away' was the old veil that separated God's mercy from mankind. But the lawful requirement for a 'veil' still stands between God's mercy and man. The NEW veil of Christ's flesh:

19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus,20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh..." (Hebrews 10:19-20 NASB)

See? A fulfillment of the requirement of law of Moses for a veil, not the end of that requirement. And why not, since the veil was only symbolic of the reality in heaven. Mankind still has to enter into the mercy of God via a representative going through the veil that separates him from that mercy. Christ is, both, that representative, and the veil.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Thanks NC I'm still a little confused though because David seemed to fully understand God's grace and had a close relationship "outside" of the MC. ie he knew God didn't hold sin against him Psalms 32 and he knew he could "draw near" to God Psalm 73 ate the Temple bread etc.

God is good.

Indeed, Paul uses David's example to show how we can have the very same relationship with God, also through faith in God's forgiveness. The embodiment of that forgiveness for us being the blood and body of Jesus Christ.

 

[Chopper]

It seems to me, as one with no preconceptions and outside of your debate looking in, that you both are saying practically the same thing. I see Jethro picturing James, and JLB picturing Romans. In James 1:19 - 25 it speaks of faith & works that is acceptable to God. In V.20 it says "for the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God. V.21 Therefore put away all filthiness and rampant wickedness and receive the with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls"....Romans 7:1 states that the "Law is binding on a person as long as he lives" this is what Jethro is stating. JLB and Jethro picture Romans 7:21 - 23. "So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. V.22 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members".

There are two laws being presented here. The implanted Law of God that was first seen thru Moses. The 10 Commandments became the standard for all mankind, Jew and Gentiles. Now the Jewish leaders added to these Commandments false traditions that are not to be followed. I love the 10 Commandments and am bound to that Law as long as I live as a Christian. JLB, I think you are against the traditions and not the "10". The law of sin and death refers to Adams sin which produced death to all mankind. The problem with that law, was,it evolved into a multiplicity of evil entering mans heart.

The law of sin and death was defeated by Christ Jesus on the Cross. that introduced a new law, Romans 8:1 says "Therefore there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. V.2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. V.3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending His Own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh. V.4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us".

The way I see these matters is, I am bound to the 10 Commandments and the righteous requirements of them, which is my works coupled with the commandments or instructions of Jesus as found in the N.T., and my faith in the Christ.

The righteous requirements of the Law I follow, the law of sin and death, I'm free of.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The law of Moses is a complete law that was added, and incorporates the Levitical Priesthood with the animal sacrifices and feast days, as well as the requirements to put to death those that violated the Sabbath.

That WAY is what got put away. Not the requirements of law fulfilled by those things.

As Jesus said, not one jot or tittle is to pass from the law...

"...until all is accomplished." (Matthew 5:18 NASB)

The accomplishment of Christ's work on the cross is what has allowed a change in the law, but a change that does not abolish the law. Two seemingly contradictory things. That's why the church doesn't get this easily. They don't understand how Christ can not abolish the law, but make it possible for there to be a change in the law. Introducing a 'new' way to fulfill the law is how 'not abolishing the law' and 'changing the law' are not in contradiction to one another.

Its all or nothing.

If you want to be justified by the letter of the law, yes, you have to do all of the law, literally and completely. That is the way that has 'gone away'--trying to be justified through the letter of the law of Moses, and the old way they attempted to do that.

The children of Israel were not given an option to pick and choose which parts to keep.

That's because they had to, according to their covenant.

We can't pick and choose which parts to 'keep' in our Covenant either. It's just that we uphold the same righteous requirements of law in this New Covenant in the new way of the Spirit and faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

[EDITED by Sparrowhawke]

The righteous requirements of the Law I follow, the law of sin and death, I'm free of.

Good summation.