1 Corinthians 14:18

[reba]

Posting this person or that person, this denomination or that, this group or that group, is or is not saved because of 'tongues' will not be tolerated.


http://www.christianforums.net/announcement.php?f=64&a=7 The Statement of Faith for CFnet

Added:
Here it is an hour later I just noticed this is the BSF no debating is allowed here...In the fine line between debate and discussion error on the side of caution .

 

[Mitspa]

Does the statement, "I speak in tongues more than you all," seem out of place in a chapter that gives instruction to believers and limits its use in the assembly? Yes, it does seem out of place. So does the Scripture that Reba quoted, "and forbid not to speak with tongues."

Is Paul talking about balance here, or are there two uses of the gift being considered? Is it possible that Paul is talking about private prayer (in tongues) vs. public use of the gift? What if we take the Word at face value? Can we make sense of Paul saying that he speaks in an unknown tongue more than the Corinthians do and when he says, "anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit."

What about that? What if Paul is saying that he prays in tongues and also prays with his understanding? What if he is addressing a problem that his converts were having when they joined together for worship - and not trying to forbid speaking in tongues at all?

I think this is the common understanding in the charisimatic circles? Only some do not hold to the truth of what Paul is trying to say. But again it is a clear gift and one to be sought by all who desire the things of God.

 

[eddif]

I suppose that's why all believers have the gift of tongues?

How can we present it as a method of empowerment for the spreading of the Gospel ?

You don't try to. Be faithful to the revelation that has already been given. TheI suppose that's why all believers have the gift of tongues?


Luke 24:47-48 is one time the great commission is listed.
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

Then IMHO the Luke 24:49
49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

Waiting in Jerusalem for the day of pentecost and the things that happened that day agreed with Joel; that is the empowerment that they needed: includes, IMHO, the sons and daughters prophesying, dreams and visions, tongues etc.

The disciples were to need more than their natural gifts to accomplish taking the gospel to the world.

eddif

 

[reba]

This has been removed from the BSF. Still no bashing each other with hammers!

 

[Asyncritus]

I am perfectly convinced that the gifts of the Holy Spirit were

A. given as a witness to the Jews

and

B. ceased at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem because of fact a, above.

Here's Jesus telling us WHY the spirit was going to be given:

Jn 15.26 ¶ But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify (=bear witness) of me:
27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

Now bearing witness, is to speak, generally in a court or tribunal of some sort, concerning things you have actually SEEN or WITNESSED. Hearsay, and second or third hand evidence is not permitted.

In such situations, we have:

a the witness and
b the person(s) TO WHOM the witness is being borne.

In this case we have both parties being clearly identified.

a. the witnesses are identified as the disciples: And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

We are not included there, because we haven't been with Him from the beginning.

b. Those to whom the witness is going to be borne:

2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

Clearly the Jews.

The penalties for their witnessing are also clearly spelt out:

2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: (= excommunication) yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you (= execution) will think that he doeth God service.

That passage creates the gravest suspicion in my mind that all claims made in the evangelical and pentecostal churches are not what the Lord intended at all.

1 Corinthians 14 is merely a detailed extension of these facts. I'll deal with them tomorrow.

In the meantime

HAVE A HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYBODY!
​

Asyncritus

 

[Free]

I am perfectly convinced that the gifts of the Holy Spirit were

A. given as a witness to the Jews

and

B. ceased at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem because of fact a, above.

Here's Jesus telling us WHY the spirit was going to be given:

Jn 15.26 ¶ But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify (=bear witness) of me:
27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

Now bearing witness, is to speak, generally in a court or tribunal of some sort, concerning things you have actually SEEN on WITNESSED.

In such situations, we have:

a the witness and
b the person(s) TO WHOM the witness is being borne.

In this case we have both parties being clearly identified.

athe witnesses are identifies as the disciples: And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

We are not included there, because we haven't been with Him from the beginning.

b. Those to whom the witness is going to be borne:

2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

Clearly the Jews.

The penalties for their witnessing are also clearly spelt out:

2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: (= excommunication) yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you (= execution) will think that he doeth God service.

That passage creates the gravest suspicion in my mind that all claims made in the evangelical and pentecostal churches are not what the Lord intended at all.

1 Corinthians 14 is merely a detailed extension of these facts. I'll deal with them tomorrow.

In the meantime

HAVE A HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYBODY!
​

Asyncritus

But when does Scripture say tongues will cease?

 

[Asyncritus]

1 Cor.13. 8 ¶ Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

 

[Mitspa]

1 Cor.13. 8 ¶ Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

yes when Jesus comes we will not need knowledge and all prophecy will be fulfilled!

 

[Mitspa]

Mitspa. I love you brother but you should speak for yourself on that matter and let others determine for themselves from the Scriptures which are very vague on the specifics of speaking in tongues, including the fact of whether or not we are in the time where speaking in tongues has ceased as foretold in Scripture. No one here has convinced me either way as both sides are using too much speculation, conjecture, and heresy.

So you do not find enough evidence of scripture to support the gift, yet you take one verse out of context and attempt to defeat the whole counsel of the scripture?

Did knowledge pass away? Has that which is perfect come?
Is phophecy all fulfilled?
1 for now we see in a glass darkly, but then we see face to face!

Who is the face of God?

And who are those of you who decide that a gift of God is past away? Is it not Gods Gift to give as He wills?

To make this scripture what some would make it? breaks all biblical standards! Especially those of you who claim there is not enough biblical evidence to support this gift!

But yet you would take a subjective scripture and defeat the truth of God and the gifts of His Spirit, because you do not have them?

 

[eddif]

Asyncritus

Just because I always wondered about this scripture it came to mind when a sign / wittness was mentioned.


Matthew 12:38
38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

The context may not match.

Actually something makes the Jews jealous.

eddif

 

[eddif]

Acts 1:8
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Acts 2:1-4
1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
it filled all the house where they were sitting.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

The tongue talkers were heard speaking good things.

These gifts were being taught to the Corinthians. Spiritual gifts,(IMHO) are a Jewish thing and need to be taught to the Gentiles.
I Corinthians 12:7
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

Verse 8 and following lists the gifts / spirituals. The Gentiles had no real deep knowledge of the actions of God on earth. The Jews did. It took a Jewish teacher Paul (IMHO) to do this teaching.

Rome had a Jewish presence, Hebrews was to Jews and thus these two places do not need spiritual gifts explained to them. The Gentiles had spiritual things happen to them, but they were not of the Holy Spirit and education was necessary for them. This was after pentecost and shows the continuing rather than the stopping of what was told of in Joel.
+++++++++++++++++
I put this in a cloud to draw attention to the statement. It is not from somewhere else. This is just something I noticed years ago.

Now the Gentiles
Because of the movement (pagan spiritual movement / leading) they had to have strong warnings attached to the teaching.
Listen to this verse
I Corinthians 12:2
2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.


Evidently some sort of spiritual force (not a good foce either) was present when they worshiped idols. A lot of this discussion about the warnings about tongues comes from the idol worship. The gentiles had to be warned that it was not about just getting into a spiritual mode, but getting into a Holy Spirit mode. They had to be instructed in the instruction of others and not just be led into some sort of trance (my words). These are the traditions of pagan spiritual worship they had to deal with,

++++++++++++++++++++


Traditions sometimes seem to speak louder than scriptures.
Matthew 15:3
3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
Matthew 15:6
6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

The Church has had almost 2000 years to come up with their own traditions. Some of our traditions are just as wrong as the Jewish traditions and pagan traditions quoted above.

May the Father open our minds to the revelation of Jesus Christ and all things we need (some of the things told by Jesus himself).

eddif

 

[Mitspa]

Acts 1:8
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Acts 2:1-4
1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
it filled all the house where they were sitting.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

The tongue talkers were heard speaking good things.

These gifts were being taught to the Corinthians. Spiritual gifts,(IMHO) are a Jewish thing and need to be taught to the Gentiles.
I Corinthians 12:7
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

Verse 8 and following lists the gifts / spirituals. The Gentiles had no real deep knowledge of the actions of God on earth. The Jews did. It took a Jewish teacher Paul (IMHO) to do this teaching.

Rome had a Jewish presence, Hebrews was to Jews and thus these two places do not need spiritual gifts explained to them. The Gentiles had spiritual things happen to them, but they were not of the Holy Spirit and education was necessary for them. This was after pentecost and shows the continuing rather than the stopping of what was told of in Joel.
+++++++++++++++++
I put this in a cloud to draw attention to the statement. It is not from somewhere else. This is just something I noticed years ago.

++++++++++++++++++++


Traditions sometimes seem to speak louder than scriptures.
Matthew 15:3
3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
Matthew 15:6
6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

The Church has had almost 2000 years to come up with their own traditions. Some of our traditions are just as wrong as the Jewish traditions and pagan traditions quoted above.

May the Father open our minds to the revelation of Jesus Christ and all things we need (some of the things told by Jesus himself).

eddif

Although you seem to speak in a mystery at times Eddif, I agree with your points.
I entered into this conversation with the thought that we could discuss the issue without those with the gift trying to unsave those who do not have it. I remember that a statement was made in that some who have the gift often jugde those who do not as not being saved of whatever? I did not do this but tried to make a point that my friend who does not use this gift is a mighty in the Spirit.
Then what always seems to happen, is a certain group begin to twist scripture and defame the gifts of God! Which I find to be a great offense! And worthy of sharp rebuke?

I say that those who do not have, should not be judged for not having, but should be humble enough to hear from those who do, without insulting that which has been given by God.

 

[Asyncritus]

yes when Jesus comes we will not need knowledge and all prophecy will be fulfilled!

I agree partly with that.

But a question:

When He comes, will the saints not have MORE of the spirit gifts rather than less?

So the ceasing in 1 Cor 13 must be BEFORE He comes.

When is or was that likely to be? Answer AD70 when the Jews were scattered all over the world because of their refusal to heed the words and works and witness of the apostles.

That fits into the context of John 15 as I quoted.

 

[ezra]

i will be the 1st to say. i do not fully understand tongues my 2 cents on this subject is that it is a gift. the use of it should be used only in the way paul wrote it should be done. no body should be scorned for speaking or not speaking in tongues. in the body of Christ there is a wide variety of belief on this subject. i have brothers and sisters in christ that use this gift. we %100 respect each other. when it is done i feel (this is me ) it should be done decent and in order with somebody to follow up with the interpret to follow. i have been in services when it was out of order. i do also feel that it is widely abused to edify the flesh. the gift is there no doubt i have often pondered about it .wondering am i missing something... its my belief if God wanted to to have it ,he would give it to me. yes i am ordained gen baptist but it is not my salvation or my guide. i am free to excersize any gift that i have been equipped with . salvation is the most important thing to have. we worship the giver of the gift ..not the gift so follow what Christ said seek ye first the kingdom of GOD... the rest will follow ..so often Christians want to spar over non salvation threatening issues. i am not posting for or against this is just my opinion....

 

[Asyncritus]

eddif

The words for sign and witness are totally different, because two totally different things are meant.

Matthew 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

4592 σημειον semeion say-mi’-on

from a presumed derivative of the base of 4591; TDNT-7:200,1015; n n

AV-sign 50, miracle 23, wonder 3, token 1; 77

Witness:

27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

3140 μαρτυρεω martureo mar-too-reh’-o

from 3144; TDNT-4:474,564; v

AV-bear witness 25, testify 19, bear record 13, witness 5, be a witness 2, give testimony 2, have a good report 2, misc 11; 79

Completely different words wth completely different meanngs.

 

[Mitspa]

I agree partly with that.

But a question:

When He comes, will the saints not have MORE of the spirit gifts rather than less?

So the ceasing in 1 Cor 13 must be BEFORE He comes.

When we see Him face to face we will not need these gifts?
Nor knowledge or phophecy. That is the point!

Again I ask has knowledge pass away? Of course not, nor has phophecy! I think If one did not not have this gift? they might feel a little less than those who do? And then look for a biblical reason why God dont do that anymore. Or that the Holy Spirit is different now than it was then?
No! some should just be humble enough to admit they do not understand it all?

For it is written that If any man thinks he knows anything, let him admit he knows nothing yet as he should know.

The first lesson we should learn is that we always need to be learning the things of God, and that it is when think we have knowledge that we are puffed up by that knowledge.

The fact that some think they decide how and when and what the Holy Spirit does, speaks that they have not yet learned how true wisdom comes.

For God delights in doing that which man says He will not do.

Let God be true and every man a liar.

 

[Mitspa]

i will be the 1st to say. i do not fully understand tongues my 2 cents on this subject is that it is a gift. the use of it should be used only in the way paul wrote it should be done. no body should be scorned for speaking or not speaking in tongues. in the body of Christ there is a wide variety of belief on this subject. i have brothers and sisters in christ that use this gift. we %100 respect each other. when it is done i feel (this is me ) it should be done decent and in order with somebody to follow up with the interpret to follow. i have been in services when it was out of order. i do also feel that it is widely abused to edify the flesh. the gift is there no doubt i have often pondered about it .wondering am i missing something... its my belief if God wanted to to have it ,he would give it to me. yes i am ordained gen baptist but it is not my salvation or my guide. i am free to excersize any gift that i have been equipped with . salvation is the most important thing to have. we worship the giver of the gift ..not the gift so follow what Christ said seek ye first the kingdom of GOD... the rest will follow ..so often Christians want to spar over non salvation threatening issues. i am not posting for or against this is just my opinion....

Who can not respect your position Ezra? Thank you! and you suprise me ! lol

 

[Mitspa]

Mitspa, I told you in my post #36, I believe, in an answer to your #35, that, "It is unclear whether it really exists today or if it is just vain babbling. My experience which I shared earlier was vain babbling. That doesn't mean that somewhere it is done in a God glorifying and acceptable manner." I never said that the gift of speaking in tongues didn't exist.

Thank you Jimjib! I will be the first to call out those who make the things of God, carnal and religious shows! But I think it important to seperate the gift from the folks who claim to use the use the gift? I thought your statement was against the gift itself? Forgive me if my response was too harsh?

Blessing and peace upon those who trust in our beloved Christ! -Mitspa

 

[eddif]

I thought it might be good to yank the cloud and make one or two more comments,

Now the Gentiles
Because of the movement (pagan spiritual movement / leading) they had to have strong warnings attached to the teaching.
Listen to this verse
I Corinthians 12:2
2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

Evidently some sort of spiritual force (not a good force either) was present when they worshiped idols. A lot of this discussion about the warnings about tongues comes from the idol worship. The gentiles had to be warned that it was not about just getting into a spiritual mode, but getting into a Holy Spirit mode. They had to be instructed in the instruction of others and not just be led into some sort of trance (my words). These are the traditions of pagan spiritual worship they had to deal with.
+++++++++
Given the special problems of pagan worship, it is not the tongues that are the problem, but the history of the Gentiles.

I Corinthians 14:23
23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

A pagan may even consider madness to be good.
Isaiah 8:19
19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits,
And unto wizards that peep, and that mutter:
Should not a people seek unto their God?
For the living to the dead?

Muttering without intelligence is not good in a Christian Service now, or Isaiah's time. But the pagans would have sought wizards and had to be told that folks needed to understand communication.

It states that intelligent conversation is to supernaturally reveal the secrets of mens' hearts by prophecy---- as certain ones prophesy.

Straight prophecy (in persons language)
Tongues; or tongues plus intrepretation equals prophecy
Revelation
etc (probably all the gifts bringing things to light) Jesus revealed thoughts all sorts of ways.

I Corinthians 14: 24-25
24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: 25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

The OT prophets approached folks with supernatural information, and the Gentiles are being taught that this is normal operation for that time too. Not the muttering of wizards., but information revealed by the Holy Spirit.

eddif

 

[eddif]

Be careful Mitspa. If you start to understand me something strange is happening LOL.

I absolutely understand I communicate a little differently than some people. I live in a mindset that does a huge amount of symbolism evaluation (there is a lot of symbolism in the bible). I tred the scripture a lot to get scripture ready for use by others (hopefully--I am always a jerk from Mississippi). Every once in awhile a normal passage comes open. Pastors / teachers should break the seedcoat off of scripture (split hoof rolls it off). Others winnow the chaff off the seed. Feel free to help get the chaff off the seed after the treading is done.

Chewing the cud is just meditation over and over till the almost undigestable part of scripture is broken down.

Very strange person that eddif. I did get an encouraging word from a prophet from South Africa a few months back. The word was (People will start to understand you more).

eddif