M
Mitspa
Guest
Well I guess I am "people"? But for sure one must lay aside traditional doctrines of man to hear what you are saying!
Also the "cloven" tongues? Praying in the "Holy" Spirit?
See? i can speak in a mystery too! lol
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Tired of all the political strife and infighting?
Find out how Christians are supposed to act in the following study
https://christianforums.net/threads/charismatic-bible-studies-1-peter-2-11-17.109823/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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1 Corinthians 14:18
- Thread starter Nick
- Start date
Well I guess I am "people"? But for sure one must lay aside traditional doctrines of man to hear what you are saying!
Also the "cloven" tongues? Praying in the "Holy" Spirit?
See? i can speak in a mystery too! lol
Now give us the intrepretation of the statement. You have the seedcoat off I guess.
eddif
M
Mitspa
Guest
Well the "cloven" footed animal was those that was accepted as "holy" and could be offered unto the Lord. The cloven tongues as fire, was a statment about the holy nature of tongues and there place a sacrifice of praise! For it is written that we give praise unto God By this gift.
Not a issue I want to make a doctrine over but just another little piece in the puzzle of understanding!
Offer the sacrifice of praise! The gift of tongues is very much a part of the praise we offer!
Sounds very related to a thread I have read.
John 16:13
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
His hoof will tread body, soul, spirit and time (all things ?)
Matthew 3:12
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Luke 3:17
17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.
Sounds like I have been reproved. I repent
eddif
But that doesn't tell me when. It certainly doesn't tell me they would cease at the destruction of Jerusalem. Simply quoting Scripture without providing an explanation doesn't really say much.
I think the question is answered, but let me try and clarify it.
When Abraham,s bosom is empty; the grave is empty, the bars of hell are closed forever and every work of God is complete then there will be no need for the Holy Spirit to reprove anyone of sin.
Heaven will be complete and perfect. Any sins of our life will be burned as if by fire as we go before the final judgement throne Eternity will start.
Fallen angels were removed and we will be in perfection and not bring any sin into heaven.
Right now the Holy Spirit and Jesus are completing the work in the saints to get us ready for heaven. I suppose we are the Church right now, but for eternity I guess we are the Bride of Christ (If I am making a minor error here correct me ---I am not trying to use anything but scripture---No established doctrine). The gifts are for the Church. We may be even helping complete the sufferings of Christ. Christ in us may be at work, but by the start of eternity our actions are through using the gifts to help establish things will be over (it is never our work, but Christ working in us).
It will be spiritual in heaven, but the work will all be done. The perfecting of the saints will be a past completed work.
That is about the best a jerk from Mississippi can do. Heaven will be so wonderfulll, but right now I do not have the words.
eddif
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A
Asyncritus
Guest
That's not what he means, Mitspa.
Knowledge isn't 'knowing things'. It's knowing things that would not otherwise be known without the HSP. As an example, think of Jesus knowing Nathaniel, and Zacchaeus without having met them before. The Samaritan woman ... and lots of others.
That's going to cease, says Paul. When do you think it did or would?
See above. Yes it has.
I will tell you exactly what was said when they spoke in tongues, and when exercising the gift of prophecy, in my next post.
Don't be silly.
So you should!
So true!
Why are you attacking me? You haven't heard the half of the facts yet.
Look, all I have to go on that is absolutely dependable, is what the scripture says. If I go to some 'spirit-filled' pastor and ask him what John 15.26 -16.2 means, what do you think he'll say? And then I'll go to another few, and what do you think they'll say? All different.
For that matter, what will you say?
I posted my understanding of the passage above, but nobody seems to have taken on the problem of understanding what Jesus said so clearly.
What do you think He meant?
A
Asyncritus
Guest
1 Corinthians and the Gifts of the Spirit
I Corinthians contains the greatest volume of detail about the gifts of the Spirit that we find in the New Testament. We must ask first, why, and second, what does it say?
Why: Because Corinth was a Jewish ecclesia, and had been witnessed to extensively
It is commonly held that Corinth contained a heterogeneous hotch-potch of Gentiles. It is certainly true that Gentiles were present in the ecclesia, and there may or may not have been an indiscriminate mixture. But what is even more certain is the fact that it was predominantly Jewish.
The account of its formation in the Acts testifies to a high concentration of Jews. Consider the following:
18: 2 Paul finds Aquila and Priscilla, lately come from Italy because Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome. Presumably, a fair number of other Jews had also come with them.
18: 4 He reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath and persuaded the Jews and the Gentiles.
18: 5 Paul, pressed in the spirit, testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ
18: 6 He goes to the Gentiles, but not too far away! “And he departed thence, and entered into a certain man's house, named Justus, one that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue.” ie next door to the synagogue!
18: 8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians ( Jews?) hearing believed, and were baptized.
18: 12 The Jews made insurrection: plainly because too many inroads were being made by Paul into their number.
From this catalogue, it seems clear that there must have been a considerable percentage of Jews in the Corinthian ecclesia. The tenor of the letters to Corinth confirms this. There are unquestionably passages directed to Gentile believers, but most of the allusions make more sense if it was a predominantly Jewish ecclesia.
1 The number and frequency of the allusions to the OT demand readers who knew the OT well. Jews , in other words.
2 2: 28 The princes of this world - the Jewish kosmos and its princes - crucified the Lord of glory.
3 5: 1 such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles. Implying that these were Jewish readers / hearers.
4 5: 6 “leaven” …..”passover” easily understandable by Jews.
5 8:7 ff the question of eating or not eating meats is mainly relevant to Jews and the food laws.
6 9: 9 “For it is written in the Law of Moses”……
7 10:1 “our fathers were under the cloud” Jewish fathers.
8 10: 20 “..to which the Gentiles sacrifice..” But not Jews.
9 14: 21 “In the law it is written…..will I speak to this people (the Jews)
10 16: 8 “Until Pentecost..”
This survey of 1 Corinthians shows that much witnessing to, and conversion of, the Jews must have been done by the apostle and his companions. Hence he heavily expounds (in 5 whole chapters) on the gifts of the Holy Spirit, chiefly, it seems because they were not using the gifts aright, i.e. in witnessing to the Jews.
What was actually said in tongues?
Chapter 14 is most instructive. The problem is that of them speaking in tongues at random. It soon becomes perfectly clear that God intended this gift to be used to witness to His unbelieving people.
1 Seek that you may prophesy rather than speak in tongues, he says in vv 1 -6, because if you speak in tongues an no-one interprets the message, then it is a waste of time for the ecclesia. He draws an analogy from which we are given a major clue as to exactly what was said in the unknown tongues.
“For if the trumpet give forth an uncertain voice, who shall prepare himself for war?”(v8 RV)
There is an allusion to Isaiah 58: 1 “Cry aloud, spare not, lift up your voice like a trumpet, and declare unto my people their transgression, and to the house of Jacob their sins.”
This is what those who spoke in tongues should have been doing. They should have been declaring to the Jews their transgression in rejecting Jesus of Nazareth, not babbling away irrelevantly and irreverently. This is only what we should have expected, since this is exactly what Peter and his companions, speaking in tongues, did on the day of Pentecost. They declared Jacob’s sins with voices like trumpets.
So when he says in 1 Cor 14: 23 “there come in those that are unlearned or unbelievers..” he means Jews who are unlearned in the Scriptures concerning Christ, or unbelieving in Him despite the facts.
Verse 21 confirms this beyond any possible doubt: “By men of strange tongues and by the lips of strangers will I speak unto this people; and not even thus will they hear me saith the Lord.”
2 At the end of the section (v25) Paul uses the words “declaring that God is among you indeed” which is a double allusion to Isaiah 45: 14 and Zech 8: 23 - in both of which men lay hold of him that is a Jew because God is among them: further indication that Corinth is a Jewish ecclesia.
Since, as we have now shown conclusively, the gifts of the Spirit were to be used principally as a witness to the Jews, and we have a clear picture of what was said in those tongues, we can now say with some confidence exactly when they were withdrawn: AD 70. When the temple was destroyed, and His people no longer a nation in their own land, there was no further witness to be made to them as a body.
Equally, this study shows that the claims of those who “speak in tongues” and perform “healing miracles” today are dubious, and have no Scriptural support whatsoever. The gifts are not used in witnessing to His people.
I do, however, believe that there will be a further outpouring of the Spirit in Israel in the last days. This is yet to be, and we look forward eagerly to that Day, when God’s witnesses will again bear miraculously supported testimony to the Jewish people concerning the claims of Jesus of Nazareth the Messiah.
Summary
1 The Comforter is the Holy Spirit
2 The Comforter was to be given exclusively as a witness to the Jews.
3 Each occasion where anyone is described as being filled with the Spirit in the Acts, was an occasion where Jews were being witnessed to.
4 1 Cor.14 supports this idea powerfully.
I Corinthians contains the greatest volume of detail about the gifts of the Spirit that we find in the New Testament. We must ask first, why, and second, what does it say?
Why: Because Corinth was a Jewish ecclesia, and had been witnessed to extensively
It is commonly held that Corinth contained a heterogeneous hotch-potch of Gentiles. It is certainly true that Gentiles were present in the ecclesia, and there may or may not have been an indiscriminate mixture. But what is even more certain is the fact that it was predominantly Jewish.
The account of its formation in the Acts testifies to a high concentration of Jews. Consider the following:
18: 2 Paul finds Aquila and Priscilla, lately come from Italy because Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome. Presumably, a fair number of other Jews had also come with them.
18: 4 He reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath and persuaded the Jews and the Gentiles.
18: 5 Paul, pressed in the spirit, testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ
18: 6 He goes to the Gentiles, but not too far away! “And he departed thence, and entered into a certain man's house, named Justus, one that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue.” ie next door to the synagogue!
18: 8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians ( Jews?) hearing believed, and were baptized.
18: 12 The Jews made insurrection: plainly because too many inroads were being made by Paul into their number.
From this catalogue, it seems clear that there must have been a considerable percentage of Jews in the Corinthian ecclesia. The tenor of the letters to Corinth confirms this. There are unquestionably passages directed to Gentile believers, but most of the allusions make more sense if it was a predominantly Jewish ecclesia.
1 The number and frequency of the allusions to the OT demand readers who knew the OT well. Jews , in other words.
2 2: 28 The princes of this world - the Jewish kosmos and its princes - crucified the Lord of glory.
3 5: 1 such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles. Implying that these were Jewish readers / hearers.
4 5: 6 “leaven” …..”passover” easily understandable by Jews.
5 8:7 ff the question of eating or not eating meats is mainly relevant to Jews and the food laws.
6 9: 9 “For it is written in the Law of Moses”……
7 10:1 “our fathers were under the cloud” Jewish fathers.
8 10: 20 “..to which the Gentiles sacrifice..” But not Jews.
9 14: 21 “In the law it is written…..will I speak to this people (the Jews)
10 16: 8 “Until Pentecost..”
This survey of 1 Corinthians shows that much witnessing to, and conversion of, the Jews must have been done by the apostle and his companions. Hence he heavily expounds (in 5 whole chapters) on the gifts of the Holy Spirit, chiefly, it seems because they were not using the gifts aright, i.e. in witnessing to the Jews.
What was actually said in tongues?
Chapter 14 is most instructive. The problem is that of them speaking in tongues at random. It soon becomes perfectly clear that God intended this gift to be used to witness to His unbelieving people.
1 Seek that you may prophesy rather than speak in tongues, he says in vv 1 -6, because if you speak in tongues an no-one interprets the message, then it is a waste of time for the ecclesia. He draws an analogy from which we are given a major clue as to exactly what was said in the unknown tongues.
“For if the trumpet give forth an uncertain voice, who shall prepare himself for war?”(v8 RV)
There is an allusion to Isaiah 58: 1 “Cry aloud, spare not, lift up your voice like a trumpet, and declare unto my people their transgression, and to the house of Jacob their sins.”
This is what those who spoke in tongues should have been doing. They should have been declaring to the Jews their transgression in rejecting Jesus of Nazareth, not babbling away irrelevantly and irreverently. This is only what we should have expected, since this is exactly what Peter and his companions, speaking in tongues, did on the day of Pentecost. They declared Jacob’s sins with voices like trumpets.
So when he says in 1 Cor 14: 23 “there come in those that are unlearned or unbelievers..” he means Jews who are unlearned in the Scriptures concerning Christ, or unbelieving in Him despite the facts.
Verse 21 confirms this beyond any possible doubt: “By men of strange tongues and by the lips of strangers will I speak unto this people; and not even thus will they hear me saith the Lord.”
2 At the end of the section (v25) Paul uses the words “declaring that God is among you indeed” which is a double allusion to Isaiah 45: 14 and Zech 8: 23 - in both of which men lay hold of him that is a Jew because God is among them: further indication that Corinth is a Jewish ecclesia.
Since, as we have now shown conclusively, the gifts of the Spirit were to be used principally as a witness to the Jews, and we have a clear picture of what was said in those tongues, we can now say with some confidence exactly when they were withdrawn: AD 70. When the temple was destroyed, and His people no longer a nation in their own land, there was no further witness to be made to them as a body.
Equally, this study shows that the claims of those who “speak in tongues” and perform “healing miracles” today are dubious, and have no Scriptural support whatsoever. The gifts are not used in witnessing to His people.
I do, however, believe that there will be a further outpouring of the Spirit in Israel in the last days. This is yet to be, and we look forward eagerly to that Day, when God’s witnesses will again bear miraculously supported testimony to the Jewish people concerning the claims of Jesus of Nazareth the Messiah.
Summary
1 The Comforter is the Holy Spirit
2 The Comforter was to be given exclusively as a witness to the Jews.
3 Each occasion where anyone is described as being filled with the Spirit in the Acts, was an occasion where Jews were being witnessed to.
4 1 Cor.14 supports this idea powerfully.
I am finally about to roll on the floor laughing.:toofunny
Just imagine all the posters sitting by their computer keyboards (or touch screens) with their plastic hammers trying to drive square plugs in round holes. And when someone else says the round plugs should go in the square holes we all hit each other with our little plastic hammers.
If someone does get a round plug in a round hole, they get so excited they knock over their suck bottle. I probably lead the pack screaming for someone to bring my suck bottle back to the highchair. LOL.
And this was not intended to offend anyone. Just the vision of a nursery with us at work was just a little much to not share. Blame it on reba for setting it all up. Thank you reba for helping us not use too much force. Carnal warfare never does any good.
Happy New Year
eddif
M
Mitspa
Guest
That's not what he means, Mitspa.
Knowledge isn't 'knowing things'. It's knowing things that would not otherwise be known without the HSP. As an example, think of Jesus knowing Nathaniel, and Zacchaeus without having met them before. The Samaritan woman ... and lots of others.
That's going to cease, says Paul. When do you think it did or would?
See above. Yes it has.
I will tell you exactly what was said when they spoke in tongues, and when exercising the gift of prophecy, in my next post.
Don't be silly.
So you should!
So true!
Why are you attacking me? You haven't heard the half of the facts yet.
Look, all I have to go on that is absolutely dependable, is what the scripture says. If I go to some 'spirit-filled' pastor and ask him what John 15.26 -16.2 means, what do you think he'll say? And then I'll go to another few, and what do you think they'll say? All different.
For that matter, what will you say?
I posted my understanding of the passage above, but nobody seems to have taken on the problem of understanding what Jesus said so clearly.
What do you think He meant?
Well I see no relation to what you are saying in regards to the gifts in John 15 and 16.
I do see that The Spirit of truth will be with us, and will teach us about Christ.
Has the Holy Spirit changed since Acts 2 ?
M
Mitspa
Guest
IF you wish to post in this thread be civil. reba
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I think (I do not know) that ecclesia is often used for a small seperate, sometimes home, gathering. IMHO, the gatherings in Corinth were seperating / distancing from each other. In II Corinthians they were still not together in belief. If the Jewish believers had been welcoming and teaching the gentiles, Paul would not have needed to to spend so much time teaching the Gentiles about Jewish spiritual gifts (and a few gifts new to the Church).
It is always hard to get the factions together. Not the heretics to remain heretics but to change all of us into the full measure of Christ. Paul believes the middle wall between Jews and Greeks (Gentiles) is broken down by Jesus. Paul is working with everyone to bring about the unity of the faith.
You know since yahoo search and gooogle search do such a good job of locating phrases, it is not necessary to quote every scripture source. Of course not everyone knows how well Google and Yahoo work. I earmark a lot of times, but private search may help some develop. Plugging in "unity of the faith" took about 15 seconds to come up with Ephesians 4:13. Remembering 4:13 and moving it here took longer than finding it LOL.
eddif
M
Mitspa
Guest
The Corinthian church was not a jewish church!
Paul was sent to the gentiles , the fact that this was a gentile church was made over and over in scriptures. It has no bearing at all upon the Work and gifts of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the same upon a jew and upon a gentile.The Holy Spirit we have today is that same Spirit poured out in Acts 2. The gifts differ according to the will of God.
EDITED
Paul was sent to the gentiles , the fact that this was a gentile church was made over and over in scriptures. It has no bearing at all upon the Work and gifts of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the same upon a jew and upon a gentile.The Holy Spirit we have today is that same Spirit poured out in Acts 2. The gifts differ according to the will of God.
EDITED
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I have heard several others relate their present or past experience with tongues. This is a tough subject to discuss.
My cover is completely blown now. I want to be in unity with all Christians. Weak, strong, everyone.
I kind of see us as Mutt and Jeff; good cop / bad cop; etc. What I want to see is the unity of the faith prevail (as much as possible) with every poster and non poster.
My journey through life is not to "Live and learn- die and forget it all" (my departed mothers saying). My goal is to: "Live and Learn - Share it with others before I die". If I have a wrong thought, I want to be made aware of it and change. At that point I will have a huge amount of work to undo the wrong teaching. Mitspa cringes when I say some of the stuff I do. I cringe at myself at times.
That old plastered over rubble looks like a wall between us church members, but if we all can discern the truth it will fall easily. We can come to the unity of the faith God desires (the work is already done in Christ Jesus).
eddif
M
Mitspa
Guest
I agree in general with your saying eddif! But what may look as harsh or hard to some? is the rod of love in the hands of those God has called to the task. Should I come to you in meekness, as I desire, or with a rod? Paul defended the truth of the gospel with a spiritual gift, he called a rod? It cannot be judged by the natural mind! For satan deceives the church by this false unity. Unity is in the Spirit, not in the flesh.
Blessings brother! You answer to God with your conscience, I have learned to do that as well!
A reminder to be careful my rod of iron comes in the form of a delete button
M
Mitspa
Guest
I can not tell? but either way it makes a civil conversation, a bit stressing!
I do not hold that any need this gift, but it is a clear gift of the Holy Spirit, well defined in scripture.
But love is greater!
A
Asyncritus
Guest
Here's the text again. I'm sure you can see exactly what He is saying, if you give the matter some thought.
Jn 15: 26 ¶ But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.
1 ¶ These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.
2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
From the above,
A. what it the HSp going to do, and
B. What are the disciples going to do and
C.What's going to happen to them as a result?
D. Who is going to do this to them?
No. It did the job Jesus said it was going to do. What job was that, do you think, from the above?
M
Mitspa
Guest
I still see no point as it relates to the gifts of God that are given by the Holy Spirit to all!
There is much written about the Holy Spirit and the gifts that are giving to believers. So again do not see any relation to the gifts being limited some way to jews or in relation to jews. For a jew is one inwardly! This truth is shown throught out scripture, and is plain and evident that the gifts are for all who receive the Holy Spirit. For there is no difference between Jew nor gentile but all are "in Christ" that believe.