5 Points of Tulip???

[Imagican]

Bill,

You simply offer what Christ stated to 'his own people' that refused to believe Him. If you wish that I offer scripture to prove my point, I ask that you do the same. Even to this day, many of 'His own people' have made the 'same' choice to deny Him. For you to offer this TULIP thing indicates that you too deny the power of God and the sacrifice of His Son.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him; for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


I, on the other hand, have chosen to accept His sacrifice. I DO NOT deny Him. You also seem to forget that Christ was born unto His OWN people, (Jew first, then Gentile). Paul and the apostles were those that brought the Spirit, by the preaching of gospel, unto all others. And there is ONLY ONE REASON that we were to offer our testimony to others. In the hope that they too would open up their hearts and allow God to reveal Himself to them that are lost.

Why do you think Christ had to die? To whom was this sacrifice offered? So, you believe that it is NOT possible for anyone other than one 'chosen' by God to believe on Jesus Christ? God's wish is that NONE should parish. If this is a true saying, then each and every one of us has a choice to receive the gift that has been offered. NONE is worthy, NO NOT ONE. It is a gift my friend, that was offered to mankind. NO, not to a specific person or persons, to all that choose to love and follow God. God does NOT make ANY love Him. That is a 'choice' made by those that believe. And His gift was offered to any and all who choose to accept it.

Otherwise, please explain to our brothers on this forum why there would be a need for ministers or preaching of the gospel? If God only offered His Son to certain folks that he 'pre-chose', why would they need to hear the gospel from men. The Bible plainly states that His laws would be written in the minds and hearts of those that love Him. In the same respect, wouldn't the purpose and gift of Christ also be written in the minds and hearts of those that He had 'pre-chosen' if this were indeed 'His way'? Wouldn't those 'pre-chosen' already have the knowledge of Christ and God in their minds and hearts upon their births? What need would these have of ANYONE to preach the gospel? Wouldn't they already 'know' God and the Son?

No, my friends, don't let anyone cheat you out of your gift with such vain words of deceit. These are the same that would change the simplicity of Christ into 'another gospel'. Christ died for ALL MEN. All will not choose to follow Him, but that will be their choice. God certainly knows which choice we will make, but that does NOT mean that our choice is of no effect.

Choose God and the Son. Love God and your brothers and let no man beguile you to understand anything other than the love of Christ and His Father. Fancy words and anagrams make not a gospel that is able to separate God from His children.

And YES, one MUST be chosen by God in order to follow Him through the Son. What you have failed to prove is that He doesn't choose EVERYONE. Some just simply refuse to heed His call. Some just refuse the offering and follow their own lusts instead of the will of God which is salvation through the Son.

What makes the difference between those that choose to follow Christ to the Father? The hearts of those that are called. Some are already so caught up in 'themselves' that they are unable to see anything else. This, however, is not predetermined. The choice that will be made is foreseen by the Father, but EVERYONE is given the choice. To be blind is no indication that they were born this way. Most times people are blinded to ALL that they choose to deny. This in NO WAY indicates that what they refuse to see doesn't exist. They simply choose NOT to see it. Of what purpose could it serve God to 'pre-select' any to deny Him? Everything indicated throughout the entire Bible points to a God that wishes for love through freedom. What you offer is a complete 'lack' of freedom and a God that pre-programs men to love Him at His discretion. What an unfair God this would indicate.

I know, I know, what's fair got to do with it? How about we use the word 'just' then. What an unjust God we would have if He only chose certain people to offer the gift of salvation to, but allowed the rest of us to know that it exists, but we weren't 'pre-chosen'. Wow.

 

[Asaph]

Too much to bother reading.

 

[wavy]

I look forward to you sources, but the question is specfic to those in Jn 8. He says "ye are of your father the devil" where does he tell "them" to choose another father. Did you choose your birth Father?

Well, you can't compare a biological father with a spiritual one in terms of who you can choose. So specific to those Jn 8, eh?

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that היה, ye shall die in your sins.

Conditional. The choice was laid out in front of them. Some took him up on his offer.

John 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.

Some within the same group made the choice. Before, he had said to all of them:

John 8:21 Then said יהושׁע again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

He made no indication that they could choose otherwise (which is the error of your argument from silence concerning satan); however, some did choose otherwise in latter verses.

He was just explaining to them, as you say here:

They claimed Abrahm as their father, and therefore chose him as their father, but they were lying in there claim, and their choice was to no avail.

...that they were deceiving themselves. They wrongly rejected him because they lacked Torah knowledge and were evil in their hearts. If being Abraham's seed counted for anything for them, they should do as he did.

No indication is made here that they are without the choice, however. You have superimposed this into the context.

 

[Asaph]

Hi Wavy,

Two things about what you have said above:

One; you are reading the "choice" into the scriptures where it does not actually exsist. It doesn't say "choose to believe". It merely says believe.

Two; to claim that the pharisees of Jesus's day lacked knowledge of the Torah is not even close to reality. They may have been blinded by religion, but they certainly were not unlearned in the law.

 

[cj]

They may have been blinded by religion, but they certainly were not unlearned in the law.

Himself being bound by religion, its very hard for Wavy to see the difference.


In love,
cj

 

[bbas 64]

Bill,

You simply offer what Christ stated to 'his own people' that refused to believe Him. If you wish that I offer scripture to prove my point, I ask that you do the same. Even to this day, many of 'His own people' have made the 'same' choice to deny Him. For you to offer this TULIP thing indicates that you too deny the power of God and the sacrifice of His Son..

Good Day, Imagican

So much stuff many misquotes of Scripture, along with just plain mistakes as to the nature of the disscussion. "TULIP thing" :roll: , you may what to get some historic back round on that of which you speak....

I deny the power of God: LOL

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.


He shall saves his people. Not tries, not would, not could ... only if. But SHALL.




.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,.

He does bring Salvation, but that is not the same as saving all men... He saves his people, His Sheep, the ones Given to Him, by the Father.

.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him; for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him..

No one seeks after God.... Faith is a gift, it is the work of God.

.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek..

The Gospel is the Power of God, and when that power is exersized by God, he never fails to complete the work where unto it was sent, it does not return void... To those who are perishing it is a stumbling block, just as He designed it to be.


.

I, on the other hand, have chosen to accept His sacrifice. I DO NOT deny Him. You also seem to forget that Christ was born unto His OWN people, (Jew first, then Gentile). Paul and the apostles were those that brought the Spirit, by the preaching of gospel, unto all others. And there is ONLY ONE REASON that we were to offer our testimony to others. In the hope that they too would open up their hearts and allow God to reveal Himself to them that are lost..

Only God can change a heart, the wisdom of man is worthless. He SAVES HIS PEOPLE.. Allow God, when did he need permision, who can stay the hand of the creator... I know the creation can, so man centered it is not funny.

News flash His sacrifice was not made to you, but His Father. On what basis do you demand a Sacrifice from the living God?

.

Why do you think Christ had to die? To whom was this sacrifice offered? So, you believe that it is NOT possible for anyone other than one 'chosen' by God to believe on Jesus Christ? God's wish is that NONE should parish. If this is a true saying, then each and every one of us has a choice to receive the gift that has been offered. NONE is worthy, NO NOT ONE. It is a gift my friend, that was offered to mankind. NO, not to a specific person or persons, to all that choose to love and follow God. God does NOT make ANY love Him. That is a 'choice' made by those that believe. And His gift was offered to any and all who choose to accept it. .

Mis quote of Scripture

" None of "us" us pronoun to what noun does it refer.

No man "can" come to me unless....

Gave his life a ransom for "many".... not "all"

.

Otherwise, please explain to our brothers on this forum why there would be a need for ministers or preaching of the gospel? If God only offered His Son to certain folks that he 'pre-chose', why would they need to hear the gospel from men. The Bible plainly states that His laws would be written in the minds and hearts of those that love Him. In the same respect, wouldn't the purpose and gift of Christ also be written in the minds and hearts of those that He had 'pre-chosen' if this were indeed 'His way'? Wouldn't those 'pre-chosen' already have the knowledge of Christ and God in their minds and hearts upon their births? What need would these have of ANYONE to preach the gospel? Wouldn't they already 'know' God and the Son?.

God, created the means to the end... The Gospel is the means to those who hear.

My seep hear my voice... HE SHALL SAVE HIS PEOPLE.

Mis use of Scripture.

I will put in them a new heart and cause them to walk in my statues...

I will remove their heart of stone and replace it with a new heart, and I will be their God and they shall be my people.... Cause and effect really easy

He should give eternal life, And this is enternal life that they should know God.


.

No, my friends, don't let anyone cheat you out of your gift with such vain words of deceit. These are the same that would change the simplicity of Christ into 'another gospel'. Christ died for ALL MEN. All will not choose to follow Him, but that will be their choice. God certainly knows which choice we will make, but that does NOT mean that our choice is of no effect.

Choose God and the Son. Love God and your brothers and let no man beguile you to understand anything other than the love of Christ and His Father. Fancy words and anagrams make not a gospel that is able to separate God from His children.

And YES, one MUST be chosen by God in order to follow Him through the Son. What you have failed to prove is that He doesn't choose EVERYONE. Some just simply refuse to heed His call. Some just refuse the offering and follow their own lusts instead of the will of God which is salvation through the Son.

What makes the difference between those that choose to follow Christ to the Father? The hearts of those that are called. Some are already so caught up in 'themselves' that they are unable to see anything else. This, however, is not predetermined. The choice that will be made is foreseen by the Father, but EVERYONE is given the choice. To be blind is no indication that they were born this way. Most times people are blinded to ALL that they choose to deny. This in NO WAY indicates that what they refuse to see doesn't exist. They simply choose NOT to see it. Of what purpose could it serve God to 'pre-select' any to deny Him? Everything indicated throughout the entire Bible points to a God that wishes for love through freedom. What you offer is a complete 'lack' of freedom and a God that pre-programs men to love Him at His discretion. What an unfair God this would indicate.

I know, I know, what's fair got to do with it? How about we use the word 'just' then. What an unjust God we would have if He only chose certain people to offer the gift of salvation to, but allowed the rest of us to know that it exists, but we weren't 'pre-chosen'. Wow.

It seems that you have redefined "predestination" as to make the word meaningless in changing the definition of said word.

FOR HE SHALL SAVE HIS PEOPLE!!!!!

I believe it, you do not you require that a secondary condition be carried out by man on his own behalf... Who denies the power of God??


Man does not understand the things of God, They are spiritual and can not be understood, and are foolishness.

He that has ears let him hear.. For hearing comes from the word of the Gosel which is Gods power unto salvation, pray therfore that God would open your eyes to see and your ears to hear... For those who the Son sets free are free"indeed" NO DOBUT ABOUT IT!!

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[bbas 64]

I look forward to you sources, but the question is specfic to those in Jn 8. He says "ye are of your father the devil" where does he tell "them" to choose another father. Did you choose your birth Father?

Well, you can't compare a biological father with a spiritual one in terms of who you can choose. So specific to those Jn 8, eh?

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that היה, ye shall die in your sins.

Conditional. The choice was laid out in front of them. Some took him up on his offer.

John 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.

Some within the same group made the choice. Before, he had said to all of them:

John 8:21 Then said יהושׁע again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

He made no indication that they could choose otherwise (which is the error of your argument from silence concerning satan); however, some did choose otherwise in latter verses.

He was just explaining to them, as you say here:

They claimed Abrahm as their father, and therefore chose him as their father, but they were lying in there claim, and their choice was to no avail.

...that they were deceiving themselves. They wrongly rejected him because they lacked Torah knowledge and were evil in their hearts. If being Abraham's seed counted for anything for them, they should do as he did.

No indication is made here that they are without the choice, however. You have superimposed this into the context.

Good Day, Wavy

Nice post, but it does not answer the question. If you would like to look at Jn 8 as a whole I will be glad to do so.

Question:

He says "ye are of your father the devil" where does he tell "them" to choose another father

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[farley]

bbas 64,

In my view you are ignoring, or misinterpreting, much scripture to reach the conclusions which you are holding.

I don't have the energy to bombard you with the proper context for each point you have made above, but I will try to highlight the context of one of your positions.

You said...

He saves his people, His Sheep, the ones Given to Him, by the Father.

...please consider the following passages.

The following passage doesn't apply to anyone today, and only applied to a handful of people at the time Jesus made this statement...

John 10 KJV
(27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
(28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
(29) My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Earlier, Christ made this statement, which offers some insight into the passage above...

John 10 KJV
(16) And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The following two passages complete the context of the passages above...

John 17 KJV
(12) While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

John 18 KJV
(8) Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:
(9) That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.

Clearly, the sheep He was referring to were His followers prior to His death on the cross! Also, these passages clarify that He is speaking only of His sheep's literal physical safety, not spiritual safety.

Hopefully, you will agree with me on this one small issue, at least.

In Christ,

farley

 

[Drew]

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him; for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him..

No one seeks after God.... Faith is a gift, it is the work of God.

I believe that Chist died for all men in the sense that each and every man can exercize a free will decision to accept Christ. I believe this for an admittedly fuzzy combination of Biblical reasons and other "philosophical" reasons.

Now that I have laid my cards on the table, I have a specific question about your response to the Hebrew 11:6 quote. No disrespect intended, but I just cannot see how the text is consistent with your conclusion. Paul writes that he who comes to God must believe that God "is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him". In light of this statement, how can you possibly argue that "no one seeks after God"?

I want to be as precise as I can in terms of logic.

1. In order for Fred to come to God he must believe the following proposition P: "he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him".

2. Now presumably P must be factually true - it makes no sense that Paul would be suggesting that we need to believe in a false statement P about God in order to "come to God".

3. The only way that P can be factually true is if God indeed rewards that set of people that do indeed actually do seek him.

4. Therefore, unless zero people "come to God", then somebody must factually seek him.

5. Therefore the statement that "no one seeks after God" cannot possibly be correct if Hebrew 11:6 is to be taken "as it reads".

Of course, the activity of "seeking after God" in no way pushes faith out of the picture.

Please tell me which line item of my argument you think is invalid, or whether there are other flaws with this reasoning.

 

[Bubba]

1.In order for Fred to come to God he must believe the following proposition P: "he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him".

Drew we seek Him only after He gives us a heart for him (Eph. 2:1-9, Ezek. 36:24-32, Jer.31:33-34).

2. Now presumably P must be factually true - it makes no sense that Paul would be suggesting that we need to believe in a false statement P about God in order to "come to God".

We need to look at the whole Bible for our doctrinal position, especially those Scriptures which seem to be paradoxical.

3. The only way that P can be factually true is if God indeed rewards that set of people that do indeed actually do seek him.

God rewards us with His own gifts (1Cor. 4:47).

4. Therefore, unless zero people "come to God", then somebody must factually seek him.

Those who have been regenerated by His Spirit, will.

5. Therefore the statement that "no one seeks after God" cannot possibly be correct if Hebrew 11:6 is to be taken "as it reads".

Those who seek God will find Him, but since we are not Spiritually neutral, God must change our heart of stone, before anyone will have that desire.

Bubba

 

[bbas 64]

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him; for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him..

No one seeks after God.... Faith is a gift, it is the work of God.

Good Day, Drew

You have got some very good questions here, let me try to unpack some of this for you.



[quote:42595]I believe that Chist died for all men in the sense that each and every man can exercize a free will decision to accept Christ. .

I do not believe Man's will is automus and "free" as he is constarined by external forces that he does not control, thus it is not "free". I do agree men make choices freely, and have a will.



.

I believe this for an admittedly fuzzy combination of Biblical reasons and other "philosophical" reasons..

Now that I have laid my cards on the table, I have a specific question about your response to the Hebrew 11:6 quote. No disrespect intended, but I just cannot see how the text is consistent with your conclusion. Paul writes that he who comes to God must believe that God "is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him". In light of this statement, how can you possibly argue that "no one seeks after God"?.

That is not my arguement... nor do I feel disrespected, There is some question as the Paul writting Hebrews That is another topic :-D

Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Hebrews:

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Believing that God "is" is the very essence of faith, by it's nature.

God is not pleased with the "faithless" person who opens a hopital to care for the poor. The bigger question is where does one "get" Faith? In and of him self man is unable to come to Christ. In and of Himself man will not leave the sin he loves and cleave to a God he hates.

I want to be as precise as I can in terms of logic.

1. In order for Fred to come to God he must believe the following proposition P: "he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him".

2. Now presumably P must be factually true - it makes no sense that Paul would be suggesting that we need to believe in a false statement P about God in order to "come to God".

3. The only way that P can be factually true is if God indeed rewards that set of people that do indeed actually do seek him.

4. Therefore, unless zero people "come to God", then somebody must factually seek him.

5. Therefore the statement that "no one seeks after God" cannot possibly be correct if Hebrew 11:6 is to be taken "as it reads".

Of course, the activity of "seeking after God" in no way pushes faith out of the picture.

Please tell me which line item of my argument you think is invalid, or whether there are other flaws with this reasoning.

[/quote:42595]

The flaw IMHO, is the disregaurd of the results of "faith" to please God. Man seeks as a result of his belif, and with out the gift of "faith" no man will seek in and of himself.

Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Our "faith" is the work of God.

Work of God, God's work
Son of God, God's son
word of God, God's word
Hand of God, God's hand

I hope this helps I did not go though your logical exersize, But I will if you feel it is needed, after you read this post.

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[bbas 64]

bbas 64,

In my view you are ignoring, or misinterpreting, much scripture to reach the conclusions which you are holding.

I don't have the energy to bombard you with the proper context for each point you have made above, but I will try to highlight the context of one of your positions.

You said...

He saves his people, His Sheep, the ones Given to Him, by the Father.

...please consider the following passages.

The following passage doesn't apply to anyone today, and only applied to a handful of people at the time Jesus made this statement...

John 10 KJV
(27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
(28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
(29) My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Earlier, Christ made this statement, which offers some insight into the passage above...

John 10 KJV
(16) And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The following two passages complete the context of the passages above...

John 17 KJV
(12) While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

John 18 KJV
(8) Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:
(9) That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.

Clearly, the sheep He was referring to were His followers prior to His death on the cross! Also, these passages clarify that He is speaking only of His sheep's literal physical safety, not spiritual safety.

Hopefully, you will agree with me on this one small issue, at least.

In Christ,

farley

Good Day, Farley

I will need to go and read the whole of the chapters you posted here. I am a bit concerned of the use of "context" on your post. The context of first priority for JN 6 would be Jn 6, as is for JN 17,10.... and then of course the context of first mention, that is not to say that other verses help us to understand better, but one has to answer the question how is it germaine to the passage we seek to understand.

I another problem I have is "if" there is no reason to believe that the people Jesus was speaking to in JN 10 where prsent in JN 17, then one would have to assume that Jesus spoke some % of revelant truth, to those in Jn 10 or 17 respectfully. I find that a problem, not sure why, But I do

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[wavy]

Two things about what you have said above:

One; you are reading the "choice" into the scriptures where it does not actually exsist. It doesn't say "choose to believe". It merely says believe.

Then you missed the point of the word "if" that he uses. A conditional term. He did not say "certainly all of you do not believe that I AM and you will certainly die in your sins because certainly you are incapable of believing".

Secondly, even as he was making statements like this, it says "many believed on him".

Two; to claim that the pharisees of Jesus's day lacked knowledge of the Torah is not even close to reality. They may have been blinded by religion, but they certainly were not unlearned in the law.

I don't know how you got this from anything I said. Number one, the audience was predominantly common Jews. Also, if you miss the spiritual mark of Torah (the knowing יהוה part) about being born again, then you are truly not as learned as you think you are. Nicodemus in John 3 can second this.

 

[wavy]

Good Day, Wavy

Nice post, but it does not answer the question. If you would like to look at Jn 8 as a whole I will be glad to do so.

Question:

He says "ye are of your father the devil" where does he tell "them" to choose another father

One of the worst dodges I've ever seen. "Yeah, that was okay. I didn't address your points, but I assure you it didn't answer my question so let me skip over what you said and lure you into my interpretation of John 8".

Anyway, it's all vain. As I said, this is an argument from silence. You've superimposed "you are of your father the devil, and this will never change because you have no choice" into the context.

You can't ask me to prove something based off of what you've already (without proof or evidence) presupposed.

When you address this simple point and prove to me how this is indictaed anywhere in the text, then I will give my time to listen to how you view "jn 8 as a whole".

Thanx.

 

[wavy]

***bbas 64 quoted romans 3 concerning "there are none that seek after god"***

Taken out of context. This is before the realization of Yahshua when Israel was in sin and division. Hebrews, as farley, I think it was, makes it clear that people can and do seek after יהוה

Paul uses the scripture to point out that if a man thinks he is justified by "works of law", then he is included in that category.

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before יהוה.

These are people who think they are justified by "works of law".

Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Our "faith" is the work of God.

Goodness, gracious...

Let's read the previous verse:

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of יהוה?

His talmidim/disciples are asking what they should do to do Yahweh's will and work. His statement was in answer to what they should do. You isolated this verse from its immediate context.

He's not saying what faith we do have is a "work of God". He's saying the work that יהוה would have you do, in DIRECT answer to their question, is to believe what his Son says.

 

[bbas 64]

***bbas 64 quoted romans 3 concerning "there are none that seek after god"***

Taken out of context. This is before the realization of Yahshua when Israel was in sin and division. Hebrews, as farley, I think it was, makes it clear that people can and do seek after יהוה

Paul uses the scripture to point out that if a man thinks he is justified by "works of law", then he is included in that category.

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before יהוה.

These are people who think they are justified by "works of law".

Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Our "faith" is the work of God.

Goodness, gracious...

Let's read the previous verse:

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of יהוה?

His talmidim/disciples are asking what they should do to do Yahweh's will and work. His statement was in answer to what they should do. You isolated this verse from its immediate context.

He's not saying what faith we do have is a "work of God". He's saying the work that יהוה would have you do, in DIRECT answer to their question, is to believe what his Son says.

Good Day, Wavy

The works they were refering to were those which satified thier stomach.

Disciples ??
God' will is not mentioned here.

Work he would have you to do.... Must have missed those words.


God's work:

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.


Goodness he said it twice with in minutes, why is this so hard ???

We can not do the work of God we are unable.. "no man can"

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[wavy]

Disciples ??

Yes. See verse 24.

God' will is not mentioned here.

Let's use our heads for a minute. If they ask him what they should do to do the works of יהוה, obviously they want to know what Yahweh would have them do (a.k.a. his will).

He tells them.

Work he would have you to do.... Must have missed those words.

You certainly missed the point of the verse. They asked him a question about what they should do. He answered it.

God's work:

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

I believe you take these out of their context and misapply them to verse 29 (which you also severed from its context).

Goodness he said it twice with in minutes, why is this so hard ???

We can not do the work of God we are unable.. "no man can"

This is silly...

 

[bbas 64]

Disciples ??

Yes. See verse 24.

God' will is not mentioned here.

Let's use our heads for a minute. If they ask him what they should do to do the works of יהוה, obviously they want to know what Yahweh would have them do (a.k.a. his will).

He tells them.

[quote:5cc5d]Work he would have you to do.... Must have missed those words.

You certainly missed the point of the verse. They asked him a question about what they should do. He answered it.

God's work:

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

I believe you take these out of their context and misapply them to verse 29 (which you also severed from its context).

Goodness he said it twice with in minutes, why is this so hard ???

We can not do the work of God we are unable.. "no man can"

This is silly...[/quote:5cc5d]

Good Day Wavy

You said, " His talmidim/disciples "

And I aked ... Disciples??

Verse 24 Joh 6:24 When the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, neither his disciples, they also took shipping, and came to Capernaum, seeking for Jesus.

The people are not disciples. They saw Jesus was not ther nor wer his disciples.

They were only interested in food,

Joh 6:26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

They wanted food, they saw the works of God, in the food that they had eaten.

Peace to u,

Bill



Peace to u,

Bill

 

[bbas 64]

Disciples ??

Yes. See verse 24.

God' will is not mentioned here.

Let's use our heads for a minute. If they ask him what they should do to do the works of יהוה, obviously they want to know what Yahweh would have them do (a.k.a. his will).

He tells them.

[quote:423d1]Work he would have you to do.... Must have missed those words.

You certainly missed the point of the verse. They asked him a question about what they should do. He answered it.

God's work:

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

I believe you take these out of their context and misapply them to verse 29 (which you also severed from its context).

Goodness he said it twice with in minutes, why is this so hard ???

We can not do the work of God we are unable.. "no man can"

This is silly...[/quote:423d1]

Good Day Wavy

You said, " His talmidim/disciples "

And I aked ... Disciples??

Verse 24 Joh 6:24 When the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, neither his disciples, they also took shipping, and came to Capernaum, seeking for Jesus.

The people are not disciples. They saw Jesus was not ther nor wer his disciples.

They were only interested in food,

Joh 6:26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

They wanted food, they saw the works of God, in the food that they had eaten.

Peace to u,

Bill



Peace to u,

Bill

 

[wavy]

Well, they were his disciples/students regardless:

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, "And they shall be all taught of יהוה". Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

That makes the people his talmidim (also, this shows us how the Father draws one to the Son: through faithfulness to his Word, not some supernatural implantation of faith by the Father).

Anyway, after telling them they needed to "labor not for the meat that perishes", they then asked what works should they do (in contrast to laboring/working for literal meat/food).

He told them.