A commentary on the Book of Revelation - Part 1

[Rodger]

Discernment , another gift of the Holy Spirit .

Crazy stuff , my aunt's Episcopal church had classes too . No classes needed .

Praise God ! "Them that believe , that's me and you Roger !
Mark 16

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Thinking and knowing are two entirely different things .

The Gifts are as given as the Holy Spirit decides . I have more than one Gift of the Holy Spirit .

At the very beginning we are told of about a 120 speaking in tongues including all the disciples in Acts chapter 1 and 2 .

13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.

14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)

I speak more than one language but that is not the same as the Holy Spirit taking the utterance and speaking in tongues . In my tongue language I hear a couple of words I know , Eli and Allah .

My dear brother..........In Mark 16:17.......... the words "And these signs shall follow them that believe" is in the Greek what is called an ANTECEDANT.

It is a grammatical precedent in which the "THEM in verse #17 are contextually indentified going back to verse #14....."Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."

THEM are the THEY and both THEM and THEY are the Eleven and THEY are the only ones given the "Sign Gifts".

 

[Rodger]

I did answer yes, but you didn't understand that answer. No one comes to the Father except by Christ.

Now that is the correct answer.

However I asked you if you accepted the Bible fact the Jesus was God in the flesh.

 

[Rodger]

That is good policy to follow with all correspondence with anyone on this site and many others as well .

Let us cut to the chase here , I believe ALL the gifts of the Holy Spirit , including signs gifts , are still in operation today just as they have been since the initial outpouring at Pentecost . I don't have any choice in the matter .
I was given the gift of speaking in tongues as the Holy Spirit gives the utterance at the same time when I was born again . Was that ever a surprise , praise God !

So I did not see the hand write the letters on the painting but non the less I did see the letters .
They were not English letters I saw .

Now again, only to discuss and not to argue, if all the sign gifts are still in operation, why do you think that there are still people in hospitals????

Why dont the faith healers, Tilton, Roberts, Myers, Copland go from one hospital to another and empty all of them?

If all the sign gifts are operating today, why don't we see those who believe that drink "strychnine or dirty river water".
And NO, that would not be temptinng God, it would be the fullfillment of having the sign gifts.

May I also add here that Another argument for the cessation of the sign gifts concerns their lack of mention in the New Testament letters. Apart from the Book of Acts, where the people HEARD the apostles in theor own language, and the letter to the Corinthian church where Paul said he spoke in many "Languages", there are no other places where the Sign Gifts are mentioned.

The list of spiritual gifts in the letter to the Romans (Romans 12:3-8) and the letter to the Ephesians (Ephesians 4:11-13) does mention the sign gifts. If they were permanent gifts, then one would assume that the other letters would have mentioned them. But they do not. This is another indication that these gifts were only temporary.

Once the New Testament was completed, and believers began to accept its authority, the need for confirming miracles ceased.

 

[Ezekiel]

I am not sure what you mean by "Background" on my thoughts. If you are asking about my credentials I am reluctant to post them as it then seems that I am bragging. Let me just say that I have spent some time in the classroom.

However, if you are asking about

Thank you for the question. I must admitt that I do not understand the idea of.....
"The Back ground".

You posted 6.........
"And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see."

OK..........That is actually chapter 6 vs. #1. So you are in error to begin with.

Then you posted "2"...........
"And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer."

OK. Great.

So I guess your thought is because the Scripture does not say" Opened the First Seal" you are questioning the veracity of the Scriptures.

Now. take the time to read verse #3.................
"When He opened the SECOND seal, I heard the second living creature saying, “Come and see.” 4 Another horse, fiery red, went out. And it was granted to the one who sat on it to take peace from the earth, and that people should kill one another; and there was given to him a great sword."

Now lets read verse #5..........
"When He opened the THIRD seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come and see.” So I looked, and behold, a black horse, and he who sat on it had a pair of scale in his hand. 6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, “A quart of wheat for a [e]denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not harm the oil and the wine.”

If we do this with each SEAL we see a numerical progression from 1 to 7 with the FIRST Seal in verse #1 being Seal #1.

Jesus Christ breaks all the Seals and the Greek word there is ...."as secriatum" which means literally.......RIGHT IN ORDER.

The rider on the white horse is the A/C. Now then..........the FOUR horsemen ride all through the Revelation from Chapter 6 to chapter 19.

Where your problem comes in is that between those Two chapter are what is called "PARENTHETICAL" chapters in which other information is given to us.

One of those is chapter 11 when the TWO Witnesses are seen. That is the middle of the 7 year Tribulation.

I fail then to see what your concern is!

Back to the White Horses. It's really simple Gods words define itself.

As I said the two witness, rather them that risen before Christ return, return with Him.

Revelation 19
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Christ gathers His and destroys earth.

Revelation 19
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

One of the seals.

Revelations 6
6 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

The white horse are them, Christians. Since Christ Gospel. And the two witnesses

 

[hawkman]

One of the tools of all Charismatic Pentecostals in witnessing is to ask this question..........
"Are you born again with the evidence of speaking in tongues"?

The question itself says that if you are a Christian you will speak in thongues.

Brother, I know that because that is exactly what I was taught 60 years ago!!!!

And this is so WRONG to teach this , my church does NOT teach this .

It is so very sad that you were taught this way , but I can not undo what has been done to you . But you can forgive and move on if you have not already done so .

Man is fallible , this is why it is so important we as Christians follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit .

 

[Rodger]

And this is so WRONG to teach this , my church does NOT teach this .

It is so very sad that you were taught this way , but I can not undo what has been done to you . But you can forgive and move on if you have not already done so .

Man is fallible , this is why it is so important we as Christians follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit .

Great!

But you I hope do see the problem! You may not teach that and your church may not, but the ingrained theology is there and many still do to this day.

I moved on many years ago from that teaching.

Now, I have several relatives in the Pentacostal denomination. I called two of them just today after speaking with you to confirm what I already knew and here is what they told me..........
"All followers of Jesus should be baptized in the Holy Spirit.
The initial physical evidence of this baptism is speaking in tongues.
Therefore, all believers should speak in tongues."

This is not isolated but is the thread that runs through and is imbedded in their faith.

So then, what does this mean for believers who have not spoken in tongues? The common logical answer is that they are deficient, lacking power for the Christian life OR they are not saved at all.

 

[Rodger]

Back to the White Horses. It's really simple Gods words define itself.

As I said the two witness, rather them that risen before Christ return, return with Him.

Revelation 19
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Christ gathers His and destroys earth.

Revelation 19
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

One of the seals.

Revelations 6
6 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

The white horse are them, Christians. Since Christ Gospel. And the two witnesses

My dear friend, there is not one single Scripture that says........
"the two witness, rather them that risen before Christ return, return with Him. "

That is completely un-Biblical!!!

You are incorrect! AGAIN!

Rev. 6:2 is the A/C. The white horse is what John saw. A man, the A/C coming to power at the start of the 70th week of Daniel.

Instead of spending time on the internet and forums such as this....I suggest that you go to a book store and purchase the works of Dr. Dwight J. Pentecost, Dr. John Walvoord, Dr. J Vernon MaGee, Dr. Oliver B. Green and Dr. John Alford and read them.

Then you will have the education and ability to post comments here.

 

[hawkman]

Now, I have several relatives in the Pentacostal denomination. I called two of them just today after speaking with you to confirm what I already knew and here is what they told me..........
"All followers of Jesus should be baptized in the Holy Spirit.
The initial physical evidence of this baptism is speaking in tongues.
Therefore, all believers should speak in tongues."

Let me guess , Assembly Of God .

So then, what does this mean for believers who have not spoken in tongues? The common logical answer is that they are deficient, lacking power for the Christian life OR they are not saved at all.

If you are a born again Christian walking the Christian walk you are empowered by the Holy Spirit , at least that is the way I see it . Do you agree ?

 

[follower]

Therefore, all believers should speak in tongues.

Well, Seek Jesus. Read and read and read Scripture through beginning to end. Praying at God's Throne always (as He Permits and directs).
SEE if He permits, just what is true about "all believers" ---- so different from what men teach and say.

 

[follower]

the ingrained theology is there and many still do to this day.

This may be the biggest obstacle to overcome. (including on this forum, and most churches)

 

[follower]

Then you will have the education and ability to post comments here.

Multitudes have the internet access, and also the ability to post comments here. online. on this forum. many places.
This resulted in much confusion, mis-direction, errors, and even loss of life.

 

[Rodger]

Multitudes have the internet access, and also the ability to post comments here. online. on this forum. many places.
This resulted in much confusion, mis-direction, errors, and even loss of life.

I have no idea what you are trying to communicate. Care to elaborate?

 

[Rodger]

I am glad you ag

This may be the biggest obstacle to overcome. (including on this forum, and most churches)

I am pleased that you agree. The bias we learn as a young person affects us as we grow older and without education to learn the difference a lot of people fall into deception.

 

[Rodger]

Well, Seek Jesus. Read and read and read Scripture through beginning to end. Praying at God's Throne always (as He Permits and directs).
SEE if He permits, just what is true about "all believers" ---- so different from what men teach and say.

The re-post of "All believers should speak in tongues" is taken out of context.

I AM not saying that at all. That is what the doctrine of the Pentecostal church is.

 

[Rodger]

Let me guess , Assembly Of God .

If you are a born again Christian walking the Christian walk you are empowered by the Holy Spirit , at least that is the way I see it . Do you agree ?

Yes. Lakeview Church of God in Winter Garden Fl.

Yes. I agree.

However that does not mean that we as Christians are able to access the Sign Gifts.
Those gifts were given to the ELEVEN plus Paul as Apostles. THEY were the ones empowered to speak in tongues, heal the sick, raise the dead, drink poison and survive viper bites.

Brother, I realize the pull of emotionalism that tells us "WE" as believers should be just like those apostles but we are not. We read how the Apostles healed the sick and survived snake bites and spoke in different languages and we WANT TO DO THAT AS WELL.

However, when we read the actual words of the Scriptures, we see that the Sign Gifts were a "Package" deal. They did not have one or two but they had ALL of them. What we see today is speaking in tongues.

WHY????

It is IMHO the one thing that can be "faked". No one kisses a rattlesnake in the mouth.
No one drinks strychnine for lunch. No one raise the dead. No heals the sick.
Now before you respond.....NO MAN heals the sick........God Heals!

God heals through the prayers of believers! The Holy Spirit is not some force we command to do our bidding.

Yes, the Holy Spirit is the same for all people, but those 12 were separated as men who would carry the Word of God to the world and write the New Test. and each one of them died in so doing. Because of the harshness of their travels, and the need to communicate with others, they were given special Sign Gifts as a SIGN of being chosen by God to accomplish that mission.

 

[follower]

Yes. Lakeview Church of God in Winter Garden Fl.

Yes. I agree.

However that does not mean that we as Christians are able to access the Sign Gifts.
Those gifts were given to the ELEVEN plus Paul as Apostles. THEY were the ones empowered to speak in tongues, heal the sick, raise the dead, drink poison and survive viper bites.

Brother, I realize the pull of emotionalism that tells us "WE" as believers should be just like those apostles but we are not. We read how the Apostles healed the sick and survived snake bites and spoke in different languages and we WANT TO DO THAT AS WELL.

However, when we read the actual words of the Scriptures, we see that the Sign Gifts were a "Package" deal. They did not have one or two but they had ALL of them. What we see today is speaking in tongues.

WHY????

It is IMHO the one thing that can be "faked". No one kisses a rattlesnake in the mouth.
No one drinks strychnine for lunch. No one raise the dead. No heals the sick.
Now before you respond.....NO MAN heals the sick........God Heals!

God heals through the prayers of believers! The Holy Spirit is not some force we command to do our bidding.

Yes, the Holy Spirit is the same for all people, but those 12 were separated as men who would carry the Word of God to the world and write the New Test. and each one of them died in so doing. Because of the harshness of their travels, and the need to communicate with others, they were given special Sign Gifts as a SIGN of being chosen by God to accomplish that mission.

The doctrinal approach to understanding all these things does not work - it is not of God nor from God.

 

[follower]

I have no idea what you are trying to communicate. Care to elaborate?

Just what is written. There is a dirth of truth on the internet/this forum - truth is not the standard, thus much is ignored or erased even if needed or necessary for understanding Truth(Scripture), and getting to the Truth when possible is much more difficult than it ought to be - the opposing voices, not Jesus Voice, is prevalent too much. (as you posted re "The bias" we learn>>>

I am glad you ag

I am pleased that you agree. The bias we learn as a young person affects us as we grow older and without education to learn the difference a lot of people fall into deception.

"We" /all the world/ is living in deception - so being further deceived is not lowering someone away from Jesus, it is normal in and throughout all society, death-dealing society (pernicious society as written in Galatians)....

The re-post of "All believers should speak in tongues" is taken out of context.

I AM not saying that at all. That is what the doctrine of the Pentecostal church is.

Yes, an unhelpful doctrinal approach is very common on this forum. Doctrine is defended instead of truth sought.(or even permitted)

 

[follower]

I am glad you ag

I am pleased that you agree. The bias we learn as a young person affects us as we grow older and without education to learn the difference a lot of people fall into deception.

I think I replied concerning one aspect, but the other as ILLUSTRATED in the BOOK OF REVELATION and CONCERNING THE END DAYS, The end times we are in TODAY : As people grow older, with or without education, they are simply continuing to grow in darkness, in what is falsely called knowledge (like 'knowledge' of science, or of medicine, or of religion, or of anything of the world, always in darkness) as the flesh is not profitable.
The salvation-healing in and of and by Jesus from all of this darkness/corruption is so much greater than most ever learn or are ever taught. The freedom to walk in the light is free, true, and rare, and makes all the difference ! To never walk in darkness again (while here on earth), God Willing. (and no more doctrinal darkness, but rather LIGHT AND LIFE AND TRUTH in Christ JEsus today and forever, as God Reveals)

 

[hawkman]

Moderator note , my fault we have strayed away from the the book of Revelation .

Let us end the Gifts of The Holy Spirit and doctrine discussion here .

If you fill lead to you are welcome to start a discussion on these other topics in new thread dedicated to the topic .

Thank you Rodger and follower for your patience .

 

[follower]

This commentary goes through the crucial timeline

For clarity: Is "This commentary" your commentary, or another ? And what is "the crucial timeline"? Why is it "CRUCIAL" ?