A different approach at disproving OSAS

[John Zain]

I think you all went into panic mode and forgot to really look carefully @ the OP.
For example, it appears that you don't believe doing God's will is important,
whereas, IMO, it is what the passage is mostly about.

umm did not my post say be doers of the word.
question do you do his will%100 of the time ?

Yes, I understand this is the way non-OSASers are treated,
instead of just dealing with the Scriptures.

 

[Deborah13]

I think you all went into panic mode and forgot to really look carefully @ the OP.

For example, it appears that you don't believe doing God's will is important,
whereas, IMO, it is what the passage is mostly about.

PANIC mode, lol.
You said, "Re: A different approach at disproving OSAS"

Everyone has been discussing OSAS.

 

[Guest]

[MENTION=32570]John Zain[/MENTION] Matt 7:21-23 is speaking about apostates who were never born again.

 

[John Zain]

Generally speaking ...
I believe that the warnings/threats in the NT are written to EVERYONE.

Because so many of these speak of the lifestyle of the unsaved,
while also warning the BAC to NOT return to this previous way of living.

So the warnings are to the unsaved ... Do not do these things!
And the warnings are to the saved ... Do not do these things!

All of this is mixed in with many edifications, exhortations, encouragements, etc.
such as Paul's usual approach:
"Oh, but YOU would never even dream of doing such and such, would you?"
... which BACs mistaken as being facts regarding them! ... many LOLs!

Not so ... There are a TON of veiled threats/warnings!

Then, when the precious Holy Spirit prompts the BAC,
he/she remembers reading about such and such warning.
Confirmations are BIG in the Christian life in all kinds of ways!

Quote of the day ...
"God's free gift of grace-faith was just to get you on the right road."

Hopefully, you chose the narrow one.
I.E. His grace continues as long as you co-operate with the Holy Spirit, who is inside of you!
Otherwise, why is He there?

 

[Deborah13]

Generally speaking ...
I believe that the warnings/threats in the NT are written to EVERYONE.

So do I. But John, why do you believe that people will only do things that are pleasing to God, when they are warned and threatened?

Why do you think that people who believe and are secure in their salvation, only do the what right IF they are warned and threatened?

Why do you do what is pleasing to God?

 

[reba]

This is a very good topic.... It could be interesting if folks weren't so bent on being right... How about trying for a mature discussion. Throwing snarks , insults and 'put downs' will end in closing the thread.. Can we please climb a step above and post respectfully. reba

 

[George Muller]

Generally speaking ...
I believe that the warnings/threats in the NT are written to EVERYONE.

Because so many of these speak of the lifestyle of the unsaved,
while also warning the BAC to NOT return to this previous way of living.

So the warnings are to the unsaved ... Do not do these things!
And the warnings are to the saved ... Do not do these things!

All of this is mixed in with many edifications, exhortations, encouragements, etc.
such as Paul's usual approach:
"Oh, but YOU would never even dream of doing such and such, would you?"
... which BACs mistaken as being facts regarding them! ... many LOLs!

Not so ... There are a TON of veiled threats/warnings!

Then, when the precious Holy Spirit prompts the BAC,
he/she remembers reading about such and such warning.
Confirmations are BIG in the Christian life in all kinds of ways!

Quote of the day ...
"God's free gift of grace-faith was just to get you on the right road."

Hopefully, you chose the narrow one.
I.E. His grace continues as long as you co-operate with the Holy Spirit, who is inside of you!
Otherwise, why is He there?

here is a good warning;
Jas 3:5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!
6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
7 For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind:
8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?
12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.
13 ¶ Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

Satan is the "accuser" of the brethren.

 

[iLOVE]

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. Romans 8:28 KJV

These trials will show that your faith is genuine. It is being tested as fire tests and purifies gold--though your faith is far more precious than mere gold. So when your faith remains strong through many trials, it will bring you much praise and glory and honor on the day when Jesus Christ is revealed to the whole world. 1 Peter 1:7 NLT

The strong spirit of a man sustains him in bodily pain or trouble, but a weak and broken spirit who can raise up or bear? Proverbs 18:14 AMP

The Father and the Lord is going to acknowledge our faith in Him. And he said to him, ‘Well done, good servant! Because you have been faithful in a very little, you shall have authority over ten cities.’ Luke 19:17 ESV


Believe and be saved...don't believe and be condemned. It's your choice. God must be first in your life.

 

[Narwhalist]

Hello and blessings to all.
True salvation can never be lost - look at the following 3 scriptures.
1 Peter 1:5 - by the power of God, having been guarded through faith to a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
This scripture lets you know that through your faith in God, your salvation is guarded.
Look at Romans 8:29 - For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son. This scripture tells us, that God, through His foreknowledge, knew who would be saved and predestined those people to conform to the image of Jesus.
Finally look at 1 John 2:19 - They went out from us, but they were not of us. For if they were of us, they would have remained with us; but they left so that it might be revealed that they were not of us.
These 3 scriptures describe very well what happens when true salvation occurs.
1) - God, through His foreknowledge knows you will accept Jesus, so you are predestined to conform to His image once you accept the Lord
2) Through your faith, your salvation will be guarded
3) If true salvation was not attained, you will leave, but if salvation was attained through accepting the Lord, you will persevere to the end.
When I say salvation was attained, I'm saying, you accepted the free gift of grace that God has offered you. :D
God bless to all.

 

[gr8grace]

the Bible is bent on being right. The world and religion tells us," there is no truth, nobody can be right." truth is, we can KNOW Gods truth,we have the MIND of Christ. Each is just at a different stage in their walk.

conditional security is not an attack on persons and Christianity. It is a direct attack on God and His character and Nature.

The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit preserves each and every believer because of who they are not because of who the creature is.

Eph 2:8~~For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;



"you have been saved" should read in our English as," you being saved in the past you continue on being saved now and saved forever and ever." It is a dogmatic and unquestionable truth from the words perspective.

It is what is called a periphrastic perfect in the Koine Greek and is one of the most powerful and forceful phrases in the Koine Greek. It is when the writer cannot get all the details and the importance of the details in one verbal form so the writer uses 2 verbal forms to get the importance of the statement across to the readers. It offers NO loopholes for the reader.

"saved" is the Intensive perfect/passive/participle of sozo in the Greek. the intensive perfect says, "the Action(saved) is a completed action and continues on forever and forever."

"you have been" is present/active/indicative of eimi. and the present tense says that ," the Action(saved) continues on in the present.



In fact ,the writer(the holy Spirit) is saying," Do not question your security as a believer." You will not grow and mature as believers if you question this.

This verses so solidly states eternal security that if we view the bible through losing salvation glasses, we will not be able to learn experiential sanctification, Position IN Christ and many other doctrinal truths.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

A tree that does not bear fruit is burned by fire...........................

We need a scripture!!!

1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

This is what Jesus said, we know them by their fruit, their works are shown. Did they produce fruit? Did they not produce fruit?

1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Any man that did not produce fruit is cut down and cast into the fire, Not everyone that says Lord, Lord shall get a reward or a Ruling, Sovereign, Royal position in Heaven. Everything they did is burnt up, they come for their crown and Jesus looking at the lack of fruit says depart, I never knew you. Yet they are still saved, as by Fire........

Mike.

This 1 Corinthians 3 passage is not a passage proving you can be fruitless but still be saved on the Day of Judgment. The 'work' that gets thrown into the fire are the fields and buildings of people we labored for, but who ultimately did not come to Christ. It's a very interesting passage worthy of it's own thread. But I can show you plainly that it is not a passage to show that disobedient people inherit the kingdom of God.

The passage that shows that people who once repented but then became fruitless, disobedient people and burned up in the Judgment, not saved, is this:

"4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

9 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case—the things that have to do with salvation. 10 God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11 We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, so that what you hope for may be fully realized. 12 We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised." (Hebrews 6:4-12 NIV)


In the passage we see that these people can not be brought BACK to repentance. The means they were once repentant, but who through the laziness of faithlessness, and the inability of that faith to persevere to the end, DO NOT inherit the kingdom of God.

We see that the sign of the faith that perseveres to the end and saves a person is the faith that can be seen in it's fruitfulness, not it's fruitlessness. It's says it quite plainly. And it's impossible to suggest these fruitless ones were never saved to begin with. It says they were.

 

[George Muller]

This 1 Corinthians 3 passage is not a passage proving you can be fruitless but still be saved on the Day of Judgment.

It does not say "THE DAY OF JUDGMENT" that's your mistaken understanding, the "day" is the light of His Glory and truth, which judges all things.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This 1 Corinthians 3 passage is not a passage proving you can be fruitless but still be saved on the Day of Judgment.

It does not say "THE DAY OF JUDGMENT" that's your mistaken understanding, the "day" is the light of His Glory and truth, which judges all things.

If that's true then the 'saved' the passage refers to isn't even talking about salvation itself...further negating the passage as one that proves unfruitful 'believers' will be saved from eternal damnation despite their unfruitfulness.

 

[Deborah13]

"4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance.

imo

So those who have sinned and have returned to their old ways, cannot repent?

We know from the Word, King David, that this interpretation cannot be true. So I have tried to understand this in the context of the scripture. Audience, Jews who have been raised in the Jewish faith, Mosaic system. What were they in danger of doing that would be so extreme that they would not be able to repent?

I'm not saying that gross sin in ones life could not lead them to this place, in their hearts. But this place is returning to a belief that the blood of bulls and goats could atone for one's sin. In other words, denying that the blood of Jesus is the only atonement for sin.
So if someone were to say in their heart, believing in their heart that there is some other way that they can be saved, other than Jesus, I believe that person has committed this sin. "trodding on the blood of the Lamb". Atonement for sin.
The description of this offender is also very detailed. They are a very mature Christian.

 

[George Muller]

This 1 Corinthians 3 passage is not a passage proving you can be fruitless but still be saved on the Day of Judgment.

It does not say "THE DAY OF JUDGMENT" that's your mistaken understanding, the "day" is the light of His Glory and truth, which judges all things.

If that's true then the 'saved' the passage refers to isn't even talking about salvation itself...further negating the passage as one that proves unfruitful 'believers' will be saved from eternal damnation despite their unfruitfulness.

Glad you admit your mistake, but you seem to go from one mistake to another? Of course the passage speaks of those who attempt to build upon the truth of Christ, those things that are judged and will not last are the efforts of mans religion, and the works of flesh that many religious people seek to boast in. But even in that their works of religion and "lawkeeping" etc... have no eternal value, they themselves are not destroyed with their "dead" works.

 

[George Muller]

So those who have sinned and have returned to their old ways, cannot repent?

You mean those who turn from the "true righteousness" of faith in Christ, and turn back to the false righteousness of works of law "the strength of sin" cannot be restored, "seeing how they Crucify the Lord again"? Well I agree in part, but in Gods mercy He will grant some mercy but the warnings of those who turn from true righteousness are very strong and clear.

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Just as Paul wrote; those who seek to be justified by the law, have been cut-off from Christ and have fallen from grace.

These poor and deceived people may well have lost their salvation in their rejection of God and His righteousness "only found in faith"

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This 1 Corinthians 3 passage is not a passage proving you can be fruitless but still be saved on the Day of Judgment.

It does not say "THE DAY OF JUDGMENT" that's your mistaken understanding, the "day" is the light of His Glory and truth, which judges all things.

If that's true then the 'saved' the passage refers to isn't even talking about salvation itself...further negating the passage as one that proves unfruitful 'believers' will be saved from eternal damnation despite their unfruitfulness.

Glad you admit your mistake, but you seem to go from one mistake to another?

What are you talking about? I'm showing you the obvious error of your mistake.

Of course the passage speaks of those who attempt to build upon the truth of Christ...

No. The thing that is being built is the building of God (1 Corinthians 3:9 NIV).

As the Bible itself describes, the foundation is Christ, then the Apostles and Prophets (?), then the rest of us (reference upon request). The workers in this building are fitting and setting blocks in place on this foundation. Some blocks simply do not belong there. They will be found out at the Judgment when all pass through the fire. The faithful, the genuine, will survive. The false, the perishable, those unable to pass through God's judgment, those made of wood, hay and stubble, will be purged from the kingdom (Matthew 13 or there abouts?).

The ones' who placed those perishable, disingenuous stones in place will not receive the reward of a non-perishable stone in the building of Christ. It doesn't affect their own salvation, but they have nothing to show for the effort of their work in the building of God's kingdom (1 Thessalonians 2:19 NASB). Thus the reason for Paul's desire for them to be shown the truth and built up into something that will be saved, not built up into something that will not be saved and not be a reward for him in the kingdom.

...those things that are judged and will not last are the efforts of mans religion, and the works of flesh that many religious people seek to boast in. But even in that their works of religion and "lawkeeping" etc... have no eternal value, they themselves are not destroyed with their "dead" works.

As you can see, this is not at all what the 'work' of 1 Corinthians 3 is. The work being referred to--Paul's and others work--is the Corinthians themselves:

"Are you (Corinthians) not my work in the Lord? " (1 Corinthians 9:1 NASB)


I love this stuff, but don't have as much time to devote to it as I want. Chiming in as I can....

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance.

imo

So those who have sinned and have returned to their old ways, cannot repent?

We know from the Word, King David, that this interpretation cannot be true. So I have tried to understand this in the context of the scripture. Audience, Jews who have been raised in the Jewish faith, Mosaic system. What were they in danger of doing that would be so extreme that they would not be able to repent?

I'm not saying that gross sin in ones life could not lead them to this place, in their hearts. But this place is returning to a belief that the blood of bulls and goats could atone for one's sin. In other words, denying that the blood of Jesus is the only atonement for sin.
So if someone were to say in their heart, believing in their heart that there is some other way that they can be saved, other than Jesus, I believe that person has committed this sin. "trodding on the blood of the Lamb". Atonement for sin.
The description of this offender is also very detailed. They are a very mature Christian.

We know it's not a hard and fast rule of God, that once you repent, but then un-repent, you can't come back. It obviously is subject to God's judgment, not ours.

I personally don't see how you can make a hard and fast rule out of believing in Christ, and make that the specific sin that can't be reversed. Maybe you can see this is really about the unpardonable sin of Matthew 12. Unpardonable...as long as you persist in it, and get turned over to that decision so that you CAN'T repent of it even if you wanted to. This is God's territory of judgment. He knows what people are responsible for, and what they are not. But the point remains, the people in Hebrews 6 were in fact REPENTANT. But OSAS says those who turn away were never repentant to begin with.

 

[Deborah13]

You mean those who turn from the "true righteousness" of faith in Christ, and turn back to the false righteousness of works of law "the strength of sin" cannot be restored

No, I am speaking of the specific scripture that I quoted and only that scripture in the context of the book of Hebrews.

 

[George Muller]

You mean those who turn from the "true righteousness" of faith in Christ, and turn back to the false righteousness of works of law "the strength of sin" cannot be restored

No, I am speaking of the specific scripture that I quoted and only that scripture in the context of the book of Hebrews.

You should understand the whole book of Hebrews is speaking of those who turn from "The Spirit of Grace" back into the "willing sin" of the law.(FOR THE STRENGTH OF SIN IS THE LAW) The sin of the Book is clearly the sin of unbelief (FOR THE LAW IS NOT OF FAITH) So then they that turn from faith back to the law are those that cannot be restored for in that they attempt to crucify Christ again.