A discussion on TOTAL DEPRAVITY

[Fastfredy0]

Well .. I don't think this discussion can go any further downhill. I suggest a truce.

 

[JLB]

You lost me.

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9


Do you believe it's God's will that not anyone in the world would perish?




JLB

 

[journeyman]

That is your opinion.

Well, I cited two witness from scripture for every point that agree.
There are also many passages in the Bible which show us how God uses circumstances to cause people to think about and in fact repent.

There isn one verse which says sinners are incapable of repentance,

Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? Heb.10:28-29

This is a curious thing to say, considering how Jesus put "an end" to the condemnation of the law.

Things only get worse since the Messiah came, when people tread him down and count him unholy, disrespecting his Spirit.

Like attributing sin and unholiness to him on the cross. Imagining that His Father saw him as unclean. How disgusting to our Father.

 

[brightfame52]

That's not what Jn.1:12 says. Jn.1:12 is the same as,

He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. Act.19:2

It's obvious how God has given to all people a mind that can reason about him before the Holy Spirit indwelt them.
I do remember telling you this before and remember receiving no comment back directly related to Act.19:2. You just ignored it.

Again, receiving Christ, believing on His Name are Spiritual actions, indicative of one who has Spiritual life.

 

[Iconoclast]

Oh yeah.
Post Spurgeon as support for your reformed ideas.
That'll certainly convince us non-cals (as you call us).

Hey W.....could you post anything by Spurgeon where you have detected error?
I have all of his sermons, so feel free to quote the sermon title so I can confirm your correcting of yet another man of God???

 

[Iconoclast]

But the NT tells us that God draws, loves, shows mercy, to everyone.
Not just a select few.


I've posted so many verses....

Romans 5:8
But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, ..
Matthew 5:43
...For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust...

Acts 10:34-35
So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.

You have been answered on these verses many times .Romans 5 :8 is only spoken to believers.

 

[Iconoclast]

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9


Do you believe it's God's will that not anyone in the world would perish?




JLB

2pet3:9 is speaking of the fact that not one elect person will ever perish,Not one.

 

[journeyman]

You say "the proof is here". I don't know what we are trying to prove/disprove. What is the subject matter... beats me.

False assumption. Again, I don't even know what the subject is that we are discussing.
I believe God reveals himself at times to those that are humble and to those who are not.

Ok my friend, lets try this way. Calvanists believe our Father directs all sinners, regardless of what they do,

A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps. Pro.16:9

but scripture also says,

Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Pro.3:5-6

So Pro.16:9 doesn't mean God directs people arbitrarily. It means God directs unrepentant sinners to destruction and directs the repentant to salvation. Do you agree?

 

[journeyman]

Again, receiving Christ, believing on His Name are Spiritual actions, indicative of one who has Spiritual life.

Fine, as long as you understand they believed in Jesus before they received the Holy Spirit.

 

[JLB]

2pet3:9 is speaking of the fact that not one elect person will ever perish,Not one.

As we see 2 Peter 3:9 makes no mention of the elect. You are projecting your preconceived idea into the scripture, trying to make it say what you want it to say.

As we see from the scripture that does indeed pertain to the elect, it is God’s desire that the elect may also obtain salvation.


Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:10


The Truth spoken by Jesus Christ:


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16

As we see, eternal life is given to whoever believes.

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:17

Jesus came to save the world, not just the elect, but the world, and whoever in the world believes would receive eternal life.


“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:18

Only those who believe are not condemned to eternal damnation.
Only those who believe will be saved.




JLB

 

[brightfame52]

Fine, as long as you understand they believed in Jesus before they received the Holy Spirit.

They didnt receive Jesus/believe on Him before being born again and given Spiritual life.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Again ... what is the general proposition you are trying to support? Is it "Man is capable of doing things

Calvanists believe our Father directs all sinners, regardless of what they do

This is a bit vague for me. I think you are referring to the doctrine of providence as Reformed people see it.
The following link describes Reform thought on the topic: https://1689londonbaptistconfession.com/5
Pick a statement you disagree with and we can probably go at it. I just ask you use scripture to defend your points and try not to insert thoughts into said scripture that are not there (though we all do to a degree I suppose)

So Pro.16:9 doesn't mean God directs people arbitrarily. It means God directs unrepentant sinners to destruction and directs the repentant to salvation

This is an example where you inserted 'crap' that can't specifically be found in the verse. It is a general statement saying Man makes plans, but God in charge. To it applies to all things, not just your inserted limitations. Many other verses will say things to lead one to this conclusion.
A man’s mind plans his way [as he journeys through life], But the Lord directs his steps and establishes them.

 

[electedbyhim]

As we see 2 Peter 3:9 makes no mention of the elect. You are projecting your preconceived idea into the scripture, trying to make it say what you want it to say.

As we see from the scripture that does indeed pertain to the elect, it is God’s desire that the elect may also obtain salvation.


Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:10


The Truth spoken by Jesus Christ:


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16

As we see, eternal life is given to whoever believes.

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:17

Jesus came to save the world, not just the elect, but the world, and whoever in the world believes would receive eternal life.


“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:18

Only those who believe are not condemned to eternal damnation.
Only those who believe will be saved.




JLB

The "whoever's" are the elect of God

 

[JLB]

The "whoever's" are the elect of God

Thanks for at least being honest.


It’s so clear to see how this mindset of projecting and adding your own private interpretation to the scriptures has blinded you to the truth.


God’s desire that the elect may also obtain salvation.


Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:10






JLB

 

[electedbyhim]

Thanks for at least being honest.


It’s so clear to see how this mindset of projecting and adding your own private interpretation to the scriptures has blinded you to the truth.


God’s desire that the elect may also obtain salvation.


Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:10






JLB

You just do not get it.

 

[atpollard]

Thanks for at least being honest.


It’s so clear to see how this mindset of projecting and adding your own private interpretation to the scriptures has blinded you to the truth.

2 Peter 3:1-9 [NKJV]
1 Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation."

• Never loose sight of who Peter is talking to and talking about … “BELOVED”.
• The answer given later on is easily abused if one ignores the QUESTION that Peter was addressing … to paraphrase: Why is Jesus taking so long to return?

5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

• There will clearly be a day of judgement.
• There will clearly be a fire for ungodly men.
• They are clearly not the beloved that will come to repentance and not perish.
• Peter is addressing the promise of God and the will of God to God’s beloved.
• The answer to the question “Why the delay?” is God is waiting for all the beloved to be born and become saved.

 

[JLB]

You just do not get it.

I absolutely get it, because I let the scripture speak and teach me.

I don’t project my preconceived perspective in to the scripture to add to it, a meaning that is simply not there.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16

The world refers to the world of unsaved people who are under the influence of the devil.

You have interjected the word “elect” in the verse where the word “world” is written.

By doing this, you have added to and changed the meaning of the passage.

You have transgressed beyond what the Lord Jesus Christ taught us.


You have created a doctrine of man.


So yes, I most certainly “get it”.



JLB

 

[Fastfredy0]

I don’t project my preconceived perspective in to the scripture to add to it, a meaning that is simply not there.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16

The world refers to the world of unsaved people who are under the influence of the devil.

First, you say "I don't project my preconceived perspective in to the scripture"
Then you contradict yourself saying the word WORLD in John 3:16 means "the world of unsaved people who are under the influence of the devil".

Aside: We all project our bias into our understanding.
Aside2: If I had a nickel for every varying thought on what WORLD meant in various verses I'd have ... hmmm ... $1.95

 

[journeyman]

Again ... what is the general proposition you are trying to support? Is it "Man is capable of doing things

This is a bit vague for me. I think you are referring to the doctrine of providence as Reformed people see it.
The following link describes Reform thought on the topic: https://1689londonbaptistconfession.com/5
Pick a statement you disagree with and we can probably go at it. I just ask you use scripture to defend your points and try not to insert thoughts into said scripture that are not there (though we all do to a degree I suppose)

The article you provided was well written and I agree with most of it, except,

As for those wicked and ungodly men whom God, as the righteous judge, for former sin does blind and harden; 17 from them He not only withholds His grace, whereby they might have been enlightened in their understanding, and wrought upon their hearts;

For one thing, God doesn't keep mercy from people for past sins, but for not repenting of them,

the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Act.17:30

Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not. Isa.65:12

But the worst part of your doctrine, is that to withhold grace aribitrarily, simply because we are sinners as the author of that article says, would be sin of omission,

whoever knowsthe right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin. Jas.5:17

When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt
surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
Eze.3:18

This heresy is comparable to a child offending his father once, and the father never speaking to the chold again. But our merciful Savior said,

Be ye thereforeperfect, even as your Father whichis in heaven is perfect. Mt.5:48

I'll finish the rest later.

 

[Fastfredy0]

For one thing, God doesn't keep mercy from people for past sins, but for not repenting of them,

the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Act.17:30

Agreed ... though I wager for different reasons as to why people repent.

But the worst part of your doctrine, is that to withhold grace aribitrarily, simply because we are sinners as the author of that article says, would be sin of omission,

Well, grace is not ARBITRARY.
Roman 9:9-26.

• Grace is granted by the will of God as He molds some clay (i.e. Jacob and Esua) into believers and some into unbelievers.
• God says the decision is by His will and not mans will (16 So then God’s choice is not dependent on human will, nor on human effort [the totality of human striving], but on God who shows mercy [to whomever He chooses—it is His sovereign gift].
• Some ask how this can be
• Paul answers in subsequent verses

Hey, from man's point of view I see your point. But God rules and this is what He said in response to your supposition: Romans 9:20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers [arrogantly] back to God and dares to defy Him? Will the thing which is formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?”

So, when we get to heaven I'll put up my hand and say, "God, JourneyMan has a question about Your arbitrary choices", and then I will step away from you to hear how the conversation goes." Hopefully, your arbitrator (Christ) will step in on your behalf. *giggles*

whoever knowsthe right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin. Jas.5:17

When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt
surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
Eze.3:18

I don't follow how you are trying to apply these verses. I have a guess, but you don't address what your specific point is.

This heresy is comparable to a child offending his father once, and the father never speaking to the chold again. But our merciful Savior said,

So, you deny that one sin is enough for God to send a person to the lake of fire for eternity. This is anti-scriptural IMO.
Your statement also is not scripture so I have to take it with a grain of salt.


Just to stay on subject ... you complaint is:

But the worst part of your doctrine, is that to withhold grace aribitrarily

... which I addressed above ... if you want to go somewhere else fine ... but you will have to state you are moving on to another topic. I am trying to keep this discussion on track. Again, great that you quote verses but please show how the verse addresses the point that "it is bad for God to withhold grace arbitrarily".

Examples of God picking seemingly arbitrarily:

• Amos 3:2 Only you have I known from all the families of the earth; therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.”
• Ephesians 2:12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.
• Matthew 15:25 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
• I could go on and on

Seems you may have issues with what God has done as I assume these are arbitrary choices of God which you do not approve of ???