A discussion on TOTAL DEPRAVITY

[GodsGrace]

What is Just?

Let us set aside Jesus and salvation for a moment and take some time to discuss "God" and "man" and "Justice".
What charge can God lay against man? Are men guilty of anything?

• If men are guilty of nothing, then everything else goes away.
• I am not speaking of Calvinism, this is a BIBLICAL and LIFE question.
• (I await your answer.)

Men are guilty of a lot.
Disobeying God will cover it.

I had a lucid moment some time ago.
They only last a few seconds.
It was about the power God must have...
I don't mean power as in authority, but in power to create.
He did, after all, create the universe.
It was kind of fear-causing to tell you the truth.
So I don't want you to think I don't understand God's power or sovereignty.

 

[GodsGrace]

Who has God killed?
Name them!
(Romans 6:23)

Who has God damned?
Name them!
(Matthew 25:31)

You are making false accusations against GOD ... shame, shame, shame.

Please stop saying silly things.
Who has God killed, name them.

Be serious.

I'm not worried about God being upset that I might be making accusations against Him.
Actually, I'm worried that YOU are making accusations against Him and that it must be very disturbing to an Almighty God.

You said there is a way that seems right to man...but leads to death.
Proverbs 14:12

God is causing the eternal death of most of the human race by predestinating them to hell...
and, again, for no reason other than to glorify Himself.

HOW does this glorify Him?
Glory would be if God practiced the justice which is a part of Him and cannot be separated from Him.

Reformed theology changes the nature of God.
This is so simple to see.

Divine Simplicity.
God is one whole unit.

 

[atpollard]

Be serious.

I am.
You are making FALSE claims about what we REFORMED believe.
I was merely attempting to use humor to point that out to you.
YOU said that God killed people, I never said that God killed anyone.
YOU said that God sent people to hell, I never claimed that God sent people to hell (and I would NEVER EVER claim that it was for “no reason” as you say we have.)

 

[atpollard]

Men are guilty of a lot.
Disobeying God will cover it.

SINCE MEN ARE GUILTY (we have established that and are in agreement) …

• What does the LAW of God demand of the guilty?
• What is a JUST response from God to our GUILT and SIN?
• Should the guilty be punished? Is that Just? Is that Justice?

Just to “keep it real”, let’s use a real life example from my own past. I was formerly an arsonist (professionally) and once set another human being on fire. What does the LAW of God say would be a fitting punishment for my deliberate, unrepentant sin?

So what is JUSTICE?

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Wrong, I am a "Christus Victor" advocate that is opposed to choosing "Biblical Truth" based on appeals to fallen human emotions and a corrupted human morality of what MEN think FEELS right.

Pardon, but it seemed in every conversation we've had, you believe our Savior suffered in place of sinners. That's not true.

What does God SAY! That is the YARDSTICK for measuring TRUTH.

Our Father says repent of the sins we've committed against him. You do see how people sinned against the Son, right?

 

[GodsGrace]

I am.
You are making FALSE claims about what we REFORMED believe.
I was merely attempting to use humor to point that out to you.
YOU said that God killed people, I never said that God killed anyone.
YOU said that God sent people to hell, I never claimed that God sent people to hell (and I would NEVER EVER claim that it was for “no reason” as you say we have.)

The reformed say God kills people by sending them to hell for no reason that we could possibly know.
Hell is the second death.
And God, according to the reformed, created some vessels for wrath.
For no reason that we could possibly know.

This is not representative of a loving God.

God IS LOVE.
1 John 4:8

Is He?
Not according to the reformed.

 

[GodsGrace]

SINCE MEN ARE GUILTY (we have established that and are in agreement) …

• What does the LAW of God demand of the guilty?
• What is a JUST response from God to our GUILT and SIN?
• Should the guilty be punished? Is that Just? Is that Justice?

Just to “keep it real”, let’s use a real life example from my own past. I was formerly an arsonist (professionally) and once set another human being on fire. What does the LAW of God say would be a fitting punishment for my deliberate, unrepentant sin?

So what is JUSTICE?

Yes.
We have established that all men are guilty.
Let me clarify, all men that have reached the age of reason.
Babies are not guilty...But let's not complicate and stay on topic.

What is Justice?
JUSTICE IS GIVING TO EACH PERSON WHAT HE DESERVES.
Simple as that.

° The law of God demands that the guilty could not be with Him after death.

° It depends. We are guilty and we have sinned...
Are we repentant?
Has God forgiven us?
Are we following Jesus?

° Yes. If we are guilty and separated from God at death, we are punished by being away from God.

 

[GodsGrace]

Pardon, but it seemed in every conversation we've had, you believe our Savior suffered in place of sinners. That's not true.

Our Father says repent of the sins we've committed against him. You do see how people sinned against the Son, right?

Hi J,
Just fell on the above.
Every theory of atonement states that Jesus died in our place.
It varies as to why.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Hi J,
Just fell on the above.
Every theory of atonement states that Jesus died in our place.
It varies as to why.

Hi wondering.
Those theories are heresy, because our dear Lord was executed contrary to what the law says, against the judgment of our Father, in direct opposition to his will,

suffering wrongfully. 1Pet.2:19

ye suffer for well doing 1Pet.3:17

So when we read, "He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied"
(Isa.53:11), he means Christ bore injustice, rather than bringing them into judgment for the sins they were committing against him.
He's exactly like our Father.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi wondering.
Those theories are heresy, because our dear Lord was executed contrary to what the law says, against the judgment of our Father, in direct opposition to his will,

suffering wrongfully. 1Pet.2:19

ye suffer for well doing 1Pet.3:17

So when we read, "He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied"
(Isa.53:11), he means Christ bore injustice, rather than bringing them into judgment for the sins they were committing against him.
He's exactly like our Father.

What theories are hearsay?
Must leave for a bit...
Don't know what you mean.

 

[atpollard]

What is Justice?
JUSTICE IS GIVING TO EACH PERSON WHAT HE DESERVES.
Simple as that.

° The law of God demands that the guilty could not be with Him after death.

° It depends. We are guilty and we have sinned...
Are we repentant?
Has God forgiven us?
Are we following Jesus?

° Yes. If we are guilty and separated from God at death, we are punished by being away from God.

So if I get drunk and run someone over with my car because they said something mean in the bar ... but later on, when I sober up, I am sorry that they are dead ... I just wanted to hurt them.

JUSTICE is letting me go because I "repented" and "asked forgiveness" ... so it would be WRONG to punish me.
Is that not the position that you have presented to define JUSTICE?

[Remember, we are discussing "Justice" for sinners ... we have deliberately set aside God's RIGHT to be merciful since NOBODY argues against that.]

 

[journeymanisnothing]

What theories are hearsay?

Any belief where Jesus was lawfully being punished for anyones sins.

Don't know what you mean.

I mean when scripture says thing like, "he shall bear their iniquities" (Isa.53:11),

the Holy Spirit means, with longsuffering. He means without bringing sinners into judgment.

If people conspired and murdered our own son or daughter, our normal reaction would be to have the murderers prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Gods' law decreed the death penalty for murderers, but his Son chose to extend mercy to his attackers.

So when the Holy Spirit refers to our Father being pleased by his Sons' suffering, he means our Lords' longsuffering in the face of adversity, great patience toward sinners who were hurting him.
Our heavenly Father was not pleased by the sins committed against Jesus, but was pleased by his Sons' reaction to it.

 

[GodsGrace]

So if I get drunk and run someone over with my car because they said something mean in the bar ... but later on, when I sober up, I am sorry that they are dead ... I just wanted to hurt them.

JUSTICE is letting me go because I "repented" and "asked forgiveness" ... so it would be WRONG to punish me.
Is that not the position that you have presented to define JUSTICE?

[Remember, we are discussing "Justice" for sinners ... we have deliberately set aside God's RIGHT to be merciful since NOBODY argues against that.]

I really hate analogies.
Could we dispense with them?

I'm not talking about some drunk in a bar here.
I'm discussing GOD.

And again: The meaning of justice:

TO GIVE TO EACH PERSON WHAT HE DESERVES.

GOD gives to each person what that person deserves.
He doesn't pick and choose for no reason at all.
This is not taught in the NT.

And as to you in the bar...
If I remember right, and you run somebody over when being drunk,
you get charged with manslaughter.
Which would be just.

 

[GodsGrace]

Any belief where Jesus was lawfully being punished for anyones sins.

Jesus was punished for our sins.
Is that lawful?

I mean when scripture says thing like, "he shall bear their iniquities" (Isa.53:11),

the Holy Spirit means, with longsuffering. He means without bringing sinners into judgment.

Agreed.

If people conspired and murdered our own son or daughter, our normal reaction would be to have the murderers prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Gods' law decreed the death penalty for murderers, but his Son chose to extend mercy to his attackers.

So when the Holy Spirit refers to our Father being pleased by his Sons' suffering, he means our Lords' longsuffering in the face of adversity, great patience toward sinners who were hurting him.
Our heavenly Father was not pleased by the sins committed against Jesus, but was pleased by his Sons' reaction to it.

Agreed.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Jesus was punished for our sins.
Is that lawful?

Certainly not, but being punished by sinners without exacting judgment, as our gentle Lamb did, is mercy for sure. I think you have a good understanding of this gospel and i's refreshing.

Do you also understand how Jesus was chastened by our Father, only as all repentant sinners are, even though Christ himself needed no correction?

 

[GodsGrace]

Certainly not, but being punished by sinners without exacting judgment, as our gentle Lamb did, is mercy for sure. I think you have a good understanding of this gospel and i's refreshing.

Do you also understand how Jesus was chastened by our Father, only as all repentant sinners are, even though Christ himself needed no correction?

Oh gosh J,
I thought you meant spiritually lawful.
If you mean really, worldly lawful, gosh no!
I read a whole book on that night and the next morning and it's horrible
what happened. The Sanhedrin couldn't put Jesus to death because it was
the Passover, so they laid the responsibility on the Romans.
Pontius Pilot wasn't too happy about it either - his wife had had a dream and it
worried him. That's why Pilot sent him to Herod. (and then Jesus just got sent back).
I can't remember the name of the book right now -- if you're interested I'll look through my
books, but you probably know all this. There's a lot more that's not coming to mind...for instance
Jesus was supposed to have 2 witnesses and He didn't (against Him).

Could you also mention quick about Father chastening Jesus...

PS
Trials could not be held at night and His was...
Funny how things come back to mind...

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Oh gosh J,
I thought you meant spiritually lawful.

I don't know what you mean by "spiritually lawful." Moses' law is spiritual, intended to teach us that we are sinners in need of his forgivness. Moses' law shows us we need our Father for life itself.

If you mean really, worldly lawful, gosh no!
I read a whole book on that night and the next morning and it's horrible
what happened. The Sanhedrin couldn't put Jesus to death because it was
the Passover, so they laid the responsibility on the Romans.
Pontius Pilot wasn't too happy about it either - his wife had had a dream and it
worried him. That's why Pilot sent him to Herod. (and then Jesus just got sent back).
I can't remember the name of the book right now -- if you're interested I'll look through my
books, but you probably know all this. There's a lot more that's not coming to mind...for instance
Jesus was supposed to have 2 witnesses and He didn't (against Him).

Yes, and the false witnesses, which in our Lords' case would have been put to death by our Fathers' law (Deu.19:16-19.)
Our Kings' example of not judging them according to Moses is why Paul said,

ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded? 1Cor.6:7

If our merciful Messiah had opened his mouth in judgment against those who lied about him, it would have been a bonfire.

Could you also mention quick about Father chastening Jesus...

Our Father chastens all his children, to make us more like him,

it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby. Heb.12:11

And Jesus as a son submitted himself to this correction,

Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; Heb.5:8

Jesus was punished, sinned against by wicked men who didn't know the meaning of justice. How is this also correction from God? It's simple, once we understand just how much superior Christ is to us. Our God is sinned against every single day, without destroying sinners, which is how our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ regarded our Fathers' correction.
And not so Jesus had to "learn" it himself, or be made "perfect", but to show us God, and the perfection of his word,

He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes. Pro.13:24 (The "rod" is the word of our Lord, so when anyone around us needs correcting, be kind to them, do the best we can to show them the Grace and Love (Jesus) of God.

PS
Trials could not be held at night and His was...
Funny how things come back to mind...

Yes. The whole thing was flipped upside down. It's like what's happening in chirches today.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't know what you mean by "spiritually lawful." Moses' law is spiritual, intended to teach us that we are sinners in need of his forgivness. Moses' law shows us we need our Father for life itself.

Yes, and the false witnesses, which in our Lords' case would have been put to death by our Fathers' law (Deu.19:16-19.)
Our Kings' example of not judging them according to Moses is why Paul said,

ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded? 1Cor.6:7

If our merciful Messiah had opened his mouth in judgment against those who lied about him, it would have been a bonfire.

Our Father chastens all his children, to make us more like him,

it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby. Heb.12:11

And Jesus as a son submitted himself to this correction,

Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; Heb.5:8

Jesus was punished, sinned against by wicked men who didn't know the meaning of justice. How is this also correction from God? It's simple, once we understand just how much superior Christ is to us. Our God is sinned against every single day, without destroying sinners, which is how our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ regarded our Fathers' correction.
And not so Jesus had to "learn" it himself, or be made "perfect", but to show us God, and the perfection of his word,

He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes. Pro.13:24 (The "rod" is the word of our Lord, so when anyone around us needs correcting, be kind to them, do the best we can to show them the Grace and Love (Jesus) of God.

Yes. The whole thing was flipped upside down. It's like what's happening in chirches today.

Yes. Everything was happening as it was supposed to.
No need for talk.
When Jesus cried out FATHER FATHER WHY HAVE YOU ABANDONED ME?
I think He felt that terrible loneliness of having HIS OWN PEOPLE come against Him.
He was betrayed by those that should have received Him with joy.
But, of course, by the end, Jesus knew it would be like this.
Thus the parables, the instructions not to tell of the healings, and the such.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Yes. Everything was happening as it was supposed to.
No need for talk.
When Jesus cried out FATHER FATHER WHY HAVE YOU ABANDONED ME?
I think He felt that terrible loneliness of having HIS OWN PEOPLE come against Him.
He was betrayed by those that should have received Him with joy.
But, of course, by the end, Jesus knew it would be like this.
Thus the parables, the instructions not to tell of the healings, and the such.

Exactly right. Even Psa.22 says, it isn't God who forsakes the righteous, but the wicked. This is why when the scribes and other religious leaders who knew the OT better than anyone mocked him [along with others ugnorant of the law] (Mt.27:37-44),

our Lord responded,

My God, my God,why hast thou forsaken me? Mt.27:46, referring them to Psa.22, where the truth is that God never forsakes the righteous.
I wouldn't be surprised if the scribes knew exactly what Jesus was saying, because in that psalm, they are the wicked.
It really opens the eyes to,

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Isa.5:20

 

[GodsGrace]

Exactly right. Even Psa.22 says, it isn't God who forsakes the righteous, but the wicked. This is why when the scribes and other religious leaders who knew the OT better than anyone mocked him [along with others ugnorant of the law] (Mt.27:37-44),

our Lord responded,

My God, my God,why hast thou forsaken me? Mt.27:46, referring them to Psa.22, where the truth is that God never forsakes the righteous.
I wouldn't be surprised if the scribes knew exactly what Jesus was saying, because in that psalm, they are the wicked.
It really opens the eyes to,

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Isa.5:20

The scribes knew what Jesus was saying.