A discussion on TOTAL DEPRAVITY

[JLB]

First, you say "I don't project my preconceived perspective in to the scripture"
Then you contradict yourself saying the word WORLD in John 3:16 means "the world of unsaved people who are under the influence of the devil".

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:16-18


No contradiction, just simply read and undetstand that the "world" refers to the unsaved, unless you believe God sent His Son to die a bloody death for people who are already saved?

The world plainly refers to the world of unsaved people who need to be saved.



JLB

 

[Iconoclast]

As we see 2 Peter 3:9 makes no mention of the elect.

Hello JLB,
It actually does. I always like when a person such as yourself offers such a vain objection
You say it does not mention the word elect. That is true.
It does not mention born-again Christians either, does it?
And yet for sure Peter is addressing the elect , born-again Christians in that place. We will see both truths very shortly, but let me quickly dismiss your weak objections.

You are projecting your preconceived idea into the scripture, trying to make it say what you want it to say.

Not at all, but rather understanding what is written and to Whom, and for what purpose.
I do not necessarily have preconceived ideas specifically. only those I know from other places.

As we see from the scripture that does indeed pertain to the elect, it is God’s desire that the elect may also obtain salvation.


Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:10

I am glad that you acknowledge there are people described as the elect in scripture.

The Truth spoken by Jesus Christ:
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16

As we see, eternal life is given to whoever believes.

Yes, the text in but vs.15 and 16 declares...everyone believing. What a wonderful truth...

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:17

Everyone believing worldwide will be saved. Everyone not believing is condemned already

Jesus came to save the world, not just the elect, but the world, and whoever in the world believes would receive eternal life.

Jesus only saves every believing one...the whole world is not believing in Jesus...so everyone believing turns out to be those given by the Father to the Son...who are they? The Elect children.
God is not willing that one perish, all Peter speaks of will be saved, no more, no less.

“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:18

Only those who believe are not condemned to eternal damnation.
Only those who believe will be saved.

Now you are getting it!

JLB

3 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
JLB.This is the second epistle, who was the first written to? YES, it was the elect! So, it is talking to the elect saints, who have obtained like precious faith, Can you see it now JLB?
1pet1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
2pet1
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

Do you see it now? it is not preconceived ideas, but direct revelation from the Holy Spirit through Peter, to us


2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

God is longsuffering with the ungodly so that all of the elect children will be born physically, then born again.

 

[JLB]

It does not mention born-again Christians either, does it?

Of course it doesnt mention born again Christians, which are people who are already saved.

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9


God's desire is for all to come to repentance so that none should perish.



JLB

 

[journeyman]

This is an example where you inserted 'crap' that can't specifically be found in the verse. It is a general statement saying Man makes plans, but God in charge. To it applies to all things, not just your inserted limitations. Many other verses will say things to lead one to this conclusion.
A man’s mind plans his way [as he journeys through life], But the Lord directs his steps and establishes them.

Truthfully, the crap is,

A man’s mind plans his way....except where turning to Christ is concerned.

 

[journeyman]

Agreed ... though I wager for different reasons as to why people repent.

It becomes clearer.

Well, grace is not ARBITRARY.
Roman 9:9-26.

• Grace is granted by the will of God as He molds some clay (i.e. Jacob and Esua) into believers and some into unbelievers.

And how our Father does this is stated in Jer.18, the Potter and the clay,

the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. vs.4

When read in context of vss.5-10, it's clear the vessel was made nobel, or ignobel, by the hearing of the word and since our God says,

As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live Eze.33:11

we can be sure the clay that became a coffee cup didn't rebel against him, but received the water.

• God says the decision is by His will and not mans will (16 So then God’s choice is not dependent on human will, nor on human effort [the totality of human striving], but on God who shows mercy [to whomever He chooses—it is His sovereign gift].
• Some ask how this can be
• Paul answers in subsequent verses

It's very simple to understand, when we realize God ordained, chose, picked a type of people to be saved.

Hey, from man's point of view I see your point. But God rules and this is what He said in response to your supposition: Romans 9:20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers [arrogantly] back to God and dares to defy Him? Will the thing which is formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?”

My supposition isn't contrary to vs.20, because Paul is saying, some will say, "Why do I have to live by faith? That's not fair! Well, I'm not submitting, so he made me that way.

So, when we get to heaven I'll put up my hand and say, "God, JourneyMan has a question about Your arbitrary choices", and then I will step away from you to hear how the conversation goes." Hopefully, your arbitrator (Christ) will step in on your behalf. *giggles*

He'll probably bring Pharaoh out, to tell us how after Dad wiped out his army, he went back to the palace and thought about it a lot more.

I don't follow how you are trying to apply these verses. I have a guess, but you don't address what your specific point is.

So, you deny that one sin is enough for God to send a person to the lake of fire for eternity. This is anti-scriptural IMO.
Your statement also is not scripture so I have to take it with a grain of salt.

I'm applying those verses in a way that shows, our Father has every right to judge just one sin, but he doesn't want to, because he's merciful.

That's the gospel of our merciful Savior. That's what he was doing on the cross. Holding back his anger against sinners that were mistreating him in a gruesome way. So I'm applying those passages, to show Gods' desire for us to be conformed to the image of his Son, cause that's who God is.

Just to stay on subject ... you complaint is:

... which I addressed above ... if you want to go somewhere else fine ... but you will have to state you are moving on to another topic. I am trying to keep this discussion on track. Again, great that you quote verses but please show how the verse addresses the point that "it is bad for God to withhold grace arbitrarily".

Examples of God picking seemingly arbitrarily:

• Amos 3:2 Only you have I known from all the families of the earth; therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.”
• Ephesians 2:12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.
• Matthew 15:25 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
• I could go on and on

Seems you may have issues with what God has done as I assume these are arbitrary choices of God which you do not approve of ???

I don't find the passages you cited arbitrary at all. Our dear Lord was following immutible prophecy. Otherwise, the mockers who mistook God mercy, by thinking God had abandoned him, who thought, "Hey Jesus, lets see ya get out otta that".....might have gotten a big unwanted surprise.

God holding each accountable for his own sin comes later.

 

[Iconoclast]

Of course it doesnt mention born again Christians, which are people who are already saved.

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9


God's desire is for all to come to repentance so that none should perish.



JLB

The US are those elected already, and those elect, yet to be born. You ignored my post, you ignore the context...

 

[JLB]

The US are those elected already, and those elect, yet to be born. You ignored my post, you ignore the context...

The context is about the coming of the Lord and some mocking saying “where is the promise of His coming”



knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
2 Peter 3:3-11

• The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night,

Since you seem to appreciate context, please tell me who the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night for?


The saved or unsaved?


This is why some translations have “you” instead of “us”.


The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9 NIV












JLB

 

[Iconoclast]

The context is about the coming of the Lord and some mocking saying “where is the promise of His coming”

Sure...now look close...it is that very contrast that proves the point of the TO USWARD.

knowing this first:

that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming/"

For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Now observe the contrast...with THE beloved...the elect.

But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us,

The beloved are the elect...in contrast to the scoffers

not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Not one will fail to be saved.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
2 Peter 3:3-11

The judgment will come,yes.

• The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night,

Since you seem to appreciate context, please tell me who the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night for?
The saved or unsaved?

Judgment upon the unsaved

This is why some translations have “you” instead of “us”.

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9 NIV

Multitudes perish in judgment..it is not wanting, it is the stronger word,bulemoi, God has decreed destined and purpose, none perish,not one...of the elect .That is why he says God is longsuffering;


13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

He speaks of the elect, those beloved all the way through.









JLB

Nice try, but false.

 

[Iconoclast]

The above is reformed teaching.

Reformed teaching is based on the whole bible, not one or two sentences

It is NOT Christian teaching that is biblical.

It is when properly understood

Yes. I'm saying that Calvinism is not biblical and it could be proven time and again.

you are saying that based on strawmen ideas

IF God does the choosing,

There is no "if". God has already chosen

and it's UNCONDITIONAL, based on nothing at all,

God's eternal purpose is the biblical base

then He is NOT a JUST GOD.

Only the god in your mind is not just

A Just God will base His choosing on something that we can know about so that we can ALL, have a chance to be saved.

In your mind, you create a god who does what you emotionally think he should do

FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD... that He gave His only begotten Son, SO THAT WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL BE SAVED (WILL NOT PERISH).\

Everyone believing will be saved

What does that mean to you?

It means you are once again mistaken

Does it sound like God is doing the choosing,

It does not comment on that, it says every believing one

or does it sound like He gives us the opportunity to believe in His Son so that WHOEVER might be saved?
John 3:16

Everyone hearing and believing will be saved.rom10:14

God cannot choose a bunch of persons that were going to hell anyway,

Sure he can. That is what He did.Jn6:37

leave the others to damnation (passes over them, as the reformed say),

Yes, he leaves the others ...preterition.Mt15:13

and STILL be called a JUST GOD.

Yes, He is perfectly just.Deut32:4

God is just.
Which is why man seeks justice,,,
so we cannot only SAY that God is just,
HE MUST BE JUST.

Yes, that is why the cross happened. Mt1;21

 

[JLB]

Sure...now look close...it is that very contrast that proves the point of the TO USWARD.

that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming/"

Now observe the contrast...with THE beloved...the elect.

The beloved are the elect...in contrast to the scoffers



Not one will fail to be saved.


The judgment will come,yes.

Judgment upon the unsaved

Multitudes perish in judgment..it is not wanting, it is the stronger word,bulemoi, God has decreed destined and purpose, none perish,not one...of the elect .That is why he says God is longsuffering;


13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

Nice try, but false.

You have devised your own “interpretation” that is not found in scripture.

You have projected the word “elect” into the contextual framework which is not there.


I asked you a simple question, yet you can’t seem to answer it.

You said judgment upon the unsaved, which I didn’t ask anything about judgment.


My question:

Since you seem to appreciate context, please tell me who the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night for?

The saved or unsaved?





JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

You have several claims that you commonly make about what “the Reformed” teach and believe that are false. Rather than engage in hearsay, let’s set this point aside for now and I will challenge it the next time you make a statement so that we can discuss a specific example rather than a general “accusation”.

You stated that “God predestines people for hell”, which requires that one define what one means by the term “predestine” when discussing those being sent to Hell. I created a POLL for ’Calvinists’ to vote on Positive-Positive Predestination (which is what I believe you are describing as ‘God predestines to hell’) and very few Calvinists believe that.

I believe, and I suspect that this is the more common view, that God merely “passes over” the reprobate (those that God has not foreknown and predestined to salvation). God does NOTHING TO them except allow them the freedom to continue to follow their natural “free but fallen” will … all the way to hell.

What INJUSTICE have they suffered? None. They merely received JUSTICE.

If you want to show SOMETHING, I will entertain quotes from the WCF or Institutes that claim God causes the reprobate to sin or repels them from the GOSPEL or takes any ACTIVE role in their damnation. Such teaching may exist (there are those that believe God’s sovereignty extends to actually creating the damned to be damned) … I would just be one among the many REFORMED that disagree with any such teaching.

Trying to catch up...
If you don't agree with those that teach that God created the damned to be damned but know that they exist, then there's nothing here that requires supporting docs.

Just want to say re positive-positive or positive-negative, in either case it's God causing those not picked to go to hell. Those going there, thankfully only in reformed theology, don't care the theological term for their bad luck.

A person ends up in hell, through no choice of their own...bad luck.

And therein lies the base problem,,,man has no free will.

No need for reply.

 

[GodsGrace]

Apparently not.

1689 Baptist Faith Confession of Faith

By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ,7 to the praise of His glorious grace;8 others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of His glorious justice.9

7 1 Tim. 5:21; Matt. 25:34
8 Eph. 1:5–6
9 Rom. 9:22–23; Jude 4

How to pass this up?
Can't.
Manana.
(Place a squiggly line over the first n)

 

[journeyman]

wondering said,
A Just God will base His choosing on something that we can know about so that we can ALL, have a chance to be saved.

I copied this from a reply to you. I couldn't find the post you wrote it in, but I would have given it a like.
You are dead on the money. It's amazing to me how blindness to the truth can alter Godly thinking, where God given emotion, such as the love a parent has for his own wayward son, is seen as a bad thing. It's like rip the "prodigal son" parable out of the Bible.

 

[atpollard]

I copied this from a reply to you. I couldn't find the post you wrote it in, but I would have given it a like.
You are dead on the money. It's amazing to me how blindness to the truth can alter Godly thinking, where God given emotion, such as the love a parent has for his own wayward son, is seen as a bad thing. It's like rip the "prodigal son" parable out of the Bible.

• Proverbs 14:12 [NKJV] There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.
• Proverbs 16:25 [NKJV] There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.

So important, God said it twice.

 

[journeyman]

• Proverbs 14:12 [NKJV] There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.
• Proverbs 16:25 [NKJV] There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.

So important, God said it twice.

I'm well aware that you think Gods' justice was being displayed by Jesus on the cross, because you believe a just God punishes a just man in place of the unjust.
The Bible says knowingly executing an innocent man is sin and when added to six other sins, constitute an abomination to our Father. Those 7 sins were all committed against the Messiah.

These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him
Pro.6:16.

Read what they are in vss.17-19. Then you'll know why you have our Fathers' justice, confused with mercy.
All prophecy dealing with the Messiah being a merciful King was and is being fulfilled in him,

Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be? Mt.26:53-54

What the church needs to hear is that our Father despises injustice, yet didn't immediately obliterate those who laid a flagrum across his back. Creepers

 

[GodsGrace]

Apparently not.

1689 Baptist Faith Confession of Faith

By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ,7 to the praise of His glorious grace;8 others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of His glorious justice.9

7 1 Tim. 5:21; Matt. 25:34
8 Eph. 1:5–6
9 Rom. 9:22–23; Jude 4

I already stated that to those damned, whether it's positive-positive or positive-negative is irrelevant. In either case it's God that is choosing based on nothing but to the praise of His glorious name and to the praise of His glorious justice.

I mean, I'd love to see some scripture on the above.

I'd like to list the verses you have to support this theory, which is probably the list of verses quoted in the 1689.
You posted:
7 1 Tim. 5:21; Matt. 25:34
8 Eph. 1:5–6
9 Rom. 9:22–23; Jude 4

None of them really do.
It's a matter of how we want to read scripture and how it's exegeted.


1 TIMOTHY 5:21
20Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning.
21I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality.
So many problems with the above...
1. Why should those continuing in sin be rebuked at all? Isn't God decreeing that they sin?
Both the Institutes and the WCF confirm that God decrees the action of every man.
Are you going to go by what the bible states or what Calvinism states?
There SHOULD BE no use for the Institutes or the WCF or the 1689, or any confession.

So since God decrees the action of each man, isn't each man just doing what God has decreed?
Paul says they should be fearful of sinning. Why?
Because, apparently, they will be under God's judgement,
so, in Calvinist theology, God condemns those he decrees to sin.

Is this just?
And yet God is a God of justice.
Deuteronomy 32:4 GOD IS JUST.

2. God's CHOSEN angels.
God CHOSE the angels that would fall?
This is not what scripture teaches. It teaches that some of the angels (1/3) rebelled against God, most probably due to pride, and were cast out of heaven to due their rebellion. The same reason persons are sent to hell - not because God arbitrarily sends them there.
Revelation 12:7-10 MICHAEL FIGHTS THE DRAGON. (satan).

3. Paul says not to take sides, but to throw out the sinners that won't stop sinning, or take them to task, and that God backs him up, and Jesus and the angels. If Paul is not to take sides and is backed up by Jesus and God...how much more will God be impartial?
Romans 2:11 GOD IS IMPARTIAL.
Deuteronomy 10:17 DITTO


MATTHEW 25:34
34“Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
What does the above say about God predestinating persons to heaven or hell?
It says the Kingdom was prepared from the beginning for those blessed by the Father.
Who is blessed?
According to Jesus we can read who in
Matthew 5, the Beatitudes


EPHISIANS 1:5-6
5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
God predestined us to adoption....
It's always HOW or WHY,,,,
God's predestined plan (Genesis 3:15) was to allow us to be adopted a sons through Jesus , the offspring of the woman. THIS is the kind intention of His will, to save those that believe in the sacrifice of His Son.
Which is why the sacrifice makes perfect sense, in our choosing to believe in the Son, otherwise it makes no sense at all.


Jude 4
4For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
The long beforehand is referring to persons that had been foretold from even in the OT.
The expression "before the beginning of time" was not used.

 

[GodsGrace]

• Proverbs 14:12 [NKJV] There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.
• Proverbs 16:25 [NKJV] There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.

So important, God said it twice.

God's way is the way of death too....
in reformed theology.

God kills persons by damning them, and for no other reason than to glorify Himself.

 

[atpollard]

I'm well aware that you think Gods' justice was being displayed by Jesus on the cross, because you believe a just God punishes a just man in place of the unjust.

Wrong, I am a "Christus Victor" advocate that is opposed to choosing "Biblical Truth" based on appeals to fallen human emotions and a corrupted human morality of what MEN think FEELS right.

What does God SAY! That is the YARDSTICK for measuring TRUTH.

 

[atpollard]

Is this just?

What is Just?

Let us set aside Jesus and salvation for a moment and take some time to discuss "God" and "man" and "Justice".
What charge can God lay against man? Are men guilty of anything?

• If men are guilty of nothing, then everything else goes away.
• I am not speaking of Calvinism, this is a BIBLICAL and LIFE question.
• (I await your answer.)

 

[atpollard]

God kills persons by damning them, and for no other reason than to glorify Himself.

Who has God killed?
Name them!
(Romans 6:23)

Who has God damned?
Name them!
(Matthew 25:31)

You are making false accusations against GOD ... shame, shame, shame.