A discussion on TOTAL DEPRAVITY

[journeymanisnothing]

The scribes knew what Jesus was saying.

AMEN! I have no doubt after Peter was filled with Christ, some of those pharisees asked him,

Men and brethren, what shall we do? Act.2:37

I think the testimony of the Apostles by the conduct of following Jesus was a powerful witness to unbelievers.
I think our Lord had a few rough old boys among his inner circle. To grow from trying to put a sword through someones brain to martyrdom is a great witness, but that's the testimony of Peter.

 

[GodsGrace]

AMEN! I have no doubt after Peter was filled with Christ, some of those pharisees asked him,

Men and brethren, what shall we do? Act.2:37

I think the testimony of the Apostles by the conduct of following Jesus was a powerful witness to unbelievers.
I think our Lord had a few rough old boys among his inner circle. To grow from trying to put a sword through someones brain to martyrdom is a great witness, but that's the testimony of Peter.

Right.
It's also what makes me believe in the resurrection.
The change that came over the Apostles in that week after Jesus died
and WAS RESURRECTED.
Something amazing happened to make them go from fear to bravery.
What better to get them through what they would face, than to see a dead man come back to life!

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Right.
It's also what makes me believe in the resurrection.
The change that came over the Apostles in that week after Jesus died
and WAS RESURRECTED.
Something amazing happened to make them go from fear to bravery.
What better to get them through what they would face, than to see a dead man come back to life!

Yes! And it's why Christianity (or Judaism in its purest form) is the most beautiful faith on earth, because the children of him know that he came to defeat death, not humans. He cared for the welfare of all people no matter who they were. May God help us to show Christ through us.

 

[brightfame52]

journeyman

Pardon, but it seemed in every conversation we've had, you believe our Savior suffered in place of sinners. That's not true.

Maybe for the jesus you believe in its not true, but the Jesus Christ of True Christianity suffered and died for some sinners as their Surety. Do you know what a Surety is ? Heb 7:22

22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

journeyman
Maybe for the jesus you believe in its not true, but the Jesus Christ of True Christianity suffered and died for some sinners as their Surety. Do you know what a Surety is ? Heb 7:22

22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

Hebrews 7 says our Lords' ministry is a surety and superior to the OT because he's still living. Also, unlike the OT high priests, Jesus being sinless didn't need to offer for his own sin.

Confession of sins over the sacrifice and repentance from those sins hasn't changed.
Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 1Cor.15:3

I endure the insults of those who insult you (God.) Psa.69:9

now they have seen and hated both me and my Father. It is to fulfil the word that is written in their law, 'They hated me without a cause. Jn.15:24-25

The judgment of God wasn't on his sacrifice, but on sinners who despised his sacrifice.

If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross. Mt.27:40

Sis,
If our dear Lord decided not to patiently endure the sins being committed against him, those taunting him would have been annihilated.

 

[brightfame52]

Hebrews 7 says our Lords' ministry is a surety and superior to the OT because he's still living. Also, unlike the OT high priests, Jesus being sinless didn't need to offer for his own sin.

Confession of sins over the sacrifice and repentance from those sins hasn't changed.
Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 1Cor.15:3

I endure the insults of those who insult you (God.) Psa.69:9

now they have seen and hated both me and my Father. It is to fulfil the word that is written in their law, 'They hated me without a cause. Jn.15:24-25

The judgment of God wasn't on his sacrifice, but on sinners who despised his sacrifice.

If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross. Mt.27:40

Sis,
If our dear Lord decided not to patiently endure the sins being committed against him, those taunting him would have been annihilated.

So you dont know what a Surety is, Christ was a Surety to God for the sins of Gods People. Its a Substitue, you seem to deny the substitutionary Death, Suretyship Death of Christ, thats a serious thing friend, its unbelief.

 

[atpollard]

SURETY:
(definition - from Merriam-Webster Dictionary)

1: the state of being sure: such as
a: sure knowledge : CERTAINTY
b: confidence in manner or behavior : ASSURANCE

2a: a formal engagement (such as a pledge) given for the fulfillment of an undertaking : GUARANTEE
b: a basis of confidence or security

3: one who has become legally liable for the debt, default, or failure in duty of another

(from Strong’s)
ἔγγυος éngyos, eng'-goo-os; from G1722 and γυῖον guîon (a limb); pledged (as if articulated by a member), i.e. a bondsman:—surety.

(the only appearance in NT scripture)
Hebrews 7:20-22 [NKJV]
And inasmuch as He was not made priest without an oath (for they have become priests without an oath, but He with an oath by Him who said to Him: "The LORD has sworn And will not relent, 'You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek' "), by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

So you dont know what a Surety is,

It means certainty.

Christ was a Surety to God for the sins of Gods People. Its a Substitue, you seem to deny the substitutionary Death, Suretyship Death of Christ, thats a serious thing friend, its unbelief.

The surety in vs.22, is that Christ (like Melchizedek) lives eternally (vs.21), which was pledged by Gods' oath (vs.20-21.)

Calvanists ignore how our Savior bore the sins of this world. In fact, by ignoring how Jesus was sinned against, Calvanists make his sacrifice, withholding his anger toward the ungodly men who conspired to murder, meaningless.

 

[brightfame52]

It means certainty.

The surety in vs.22, is that Christ (like Melchizedek) lives eternally (vs.21), which was pledged by Gods' oath (vs.20-21.)

Calvanists ignore how our Savior bore the sins of this world. In fact, by ignoring how Jesus was sinned against, Calvanists make his sacrifice, withholding his anger toward the ungodly men who conspired to murder, meaningless.

You still dont know what a Surety is. And where did you get the notion that Melchizadek was a Surety ? He was a King and a Priest, not a Surety.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

You still dont know what a Surety is.

The surety is certainty that our Lord lives forever..... to forgive the repentant in any age.

And where did you get the notion that Melchizadek was a Surety ?

For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchisedec By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. Heb.7:21-22

An oath by God that he would never, under any condition violate, "Jesus is a Priest eternally." By this immutable word of God, our Savior was certain.

He was a King and a Priest, not a Surety.

Not to unbelievers....for surety!

 

[brightfame52]

The surety is certainty that our Lord lives forever..... to forgive the repentant in any age.

For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchisedec By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. Heb.7:21-22

An oath by God that he would never, under any condition violate, "Jesus is a Priest eternally." By this immutable word of God, our Savior was certain.

Not to unbelievers....for surety!

You still dont know what a Surety is.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

You still dont know what a Surety is.

With all the love in my heart, you're like talking to a wall.
This whole matter is very simple. When God was sinned against as a man, God didn't use the law he gave Moses to charge, convict and sentence to death those he a right to, under the law, because they violated the law...in conspiring to put him to death. So now when Paul says,

Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; Col.2:14

We understand that repentance follows, because (except for the rest of his body) our King himself won't be used as a punching bag again. Please consider that the "law that was against us", is enforced on judgement day,

Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. Jn.5:45

And please know this most important,

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Heb.10:28

He means the unrepentant. And now logically,

Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, where with he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? Heb.10:29

How ironic that theologians say God coudn't look at Christ on the cross because Christ was sin...an unholy thing.

 

[brightfame52]

With all the love in my heart, you're like talking to a wall.
This whole matter is very simple. When God was sinned against as a man, God didn't use the law he gave Moses to charge, convict and sentence to death those he a right to, under the law, because they violated the law...in conspiring to put him to death. So now when Paul says,

Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; Col.2:14

We understand that repentance follows, because (except for the rest of his body) our King himself won't be used as a punching bag again. Please consider that the "law that was against us", is enforced on judgement day,

Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. Jn.5:45

And please know this most important,

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Heb.10:28

He means the unrepentant. And now logically,

Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, where with he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? Heb.10:29

How ironic that theologians say God coudn't look at Christ on the cross because Christ was sin...an unholy thing.

I still dont see where you understand what a Surety is, thats too bad since Christ was made a Surety Heb 7:22

22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

 

[brightfame52]

With all the love in my heart, you're like talking to a wall.
This whole matter is very simple. When God was sinned against as a man, God didn't use the law he gave Moses to charge, convict and sentence to death those he a right to, under the law, because they violated the law...in conspiring to put him to death. So now when Paul says,

Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; Col.2:14

We understand that repentance follows, because (except for the rest of his body) our King himself won't be used as a punching bag again. Please consider that the "law that was against us", is enforced on judgement day,

Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. Jn.5:45

And please know this most important,

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Heb.10:28

He means the unrepentant. And now logically,

Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, where with he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? Heb.10:29

How ironic that theologians say God coudn't look at Christ on the cross because Christ was sin...an unholy thing.

Also as Surety Jesus is as well a Testator Heb 9:14-18

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

What does it mean He was a Testator ?

 

[atpollard]

What does it mean He was a Testator ?

I'll let YOU define that one.
(I got "surety".)

 

[brightfame52]

I'll let YOU define that one.
(I got "surety".)

The question is directed to someone else

 

[journeymanisnothing]

I still dont see where you understand what a Surety is, thats too bad since Christ was made a Surety Heb 7:22

22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

"By so much" refer to his eternal existence.

 

[atpollard]

The question is directed to someone else

Actually, it was more a rhetorical device.
You don't really want to discuss the definition of "testator", you wanted to bolster the point you were (are) arguing.
However it is your fight, so carry on ...

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Also as Surety Jesus is as well a Testator Heb 9:14-18

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

What does it mean He was a Testator ?

A testator is a person who leaves a will. The benefactors' will takes effect after his death.
In the case of our Lord, his death was caused by the sins committed against him, the conspiracy of murder and all the sins committed to accomplish it.
So it was necessary for our Father to give us a clear example of mankinds hatred of him and his will, or testament that he lives forever and will forgive the repentant.

I've asked you a couple times it you understand that crucifying Jesus was sin against God, but you never answered.

 

[GodsGrace]

A testator is a person who leaves a will. The benefactors' will takes effect after his death.
In the case of our Lord, his death was caused by the sins committed against him, the conspiracy of murder and all the sins committed to accomplish it.
So it was necessary for our Father to give us a clear example of mankinds hatred of him and his will, or testament that he lives forever and will forgive the repentant.

I've asked you a couple times it you understand that crucifying Jesus was sin against God, but you never answered.

The will in this case is the New Covenant or New Testament.
It became effective upon the death of Jesus, as you've stated.