A discussion on TOTAL DEPRAVITY

[journeymanisnothing]

The will in this case is the New Covenant or New Testament.
It became effective upon the death of Jesus, as you've stated.

Exactly right. The problem is that Calvanists aren't seeing Jesus as God on earth. They don't see the hate and savagery inflicted on him as,

he shall bear their iniquities. Isa.53:11

 

[Rookie]

First we need to accurately define some terms:

ORIGINAL SIN: It is not, as some think, talking about the very first sin that Adam and Eve committed. The Church has historically talked about “the doctrine of Original Sin” and meant the consequences to the human race because of that first sin. In short, something happened at that first sin that has impacted the entire human race … we “fell” and our nature is now influenced by the power of evil. The issue of Original Sin is that we are not sinners because we sin, but rather, we sin because we are by nature sinners!


So now let’s discuss the “T” of TULIP: TOTAL DEPRAVITY

WHAT TOTAL DEPRAVITY IS NOT:
Total Depravity is not UTTER DEPRAVITY. Every human being is not as bad as they could possibly be. (Even Adolph Hitler probably loved his mother, so there is room for everyone to be more evil than they are.)

WHAT TOTAL DEPRAVITY IS:
Total Depravity means that the fall affects the whole man. The fallenness that corrupts our nature, affects our BODIES - so we become sick and we die. The fallenness that corrupts our nature, affects our MINDS - so our thoughts become what the Bible calls “darkened” and “weakened”. The fallenness that corrupts our nature, affects our WILL - according to Paul we are now in bondage and enslaved to the evil desires of our hearts. The fallenness that corrupts our nature, affects our SPIRIT - we are no longer born with that innate spiritual connection to God that Adam once had and which only Christ can restore. So the fall has corrupted our bodies, our minds, our will and our spirit … the WHOLE MAN is corrupted by the power of sin.

R.C. Sproul likes to call it “Radical Corruption” because the Latin origin for “radical” is the word “root”. It designates that the problem with man and sin is not something applied to the surface of us, but rather it is something that comes from the very core of us. The REFORMED view of fallen man is that our “sin problem” is something that originates in the very “core” or “heart” or “innermost” part of us. It is not shallow or superficial. It is not easily removed.

Thus no small adjustments from the outside can change a man. Salvation requires radical transformation beginning at the core of who we are. God must transform our heart before anything else is possible.

That is the essence of the Reformed doctrine of TOTAL DEPRAVITY.

(After I get some sleep, we can discuss whether or not Scripture actually teaches any of this … or if people just made it up out of whole cloth. For now, we at least have an understanding of what the term actually means.)

First let's establish what we do know Scripture teaches about this:

Romans 1:18-32 and 2 Timothy 3:1-9 are good places to start

 

[GodsGrace]

Exactly right. The problem is that Calvanists aren't seeing Jesus as God on earth. They don't see the hate and savagery inflicted on him as,

he shall bear their iniquities. Isa.53:11

I've never heard that they don't see Jesus as God on earth....
I'd like to hear from atpollard -

 

[journeymanisnothing]

I've never heard that they don't see Jesus as God on earth....

The'll never admit it, but since their doctrine violates Gods' nature, that is in fact what they are saying.

 

[GodsGrace]

The'll never admit it, but since their doctrine violates Gods' nature, that is in fact what they are saying.

I have to think about this.
Why would calvinism necessitate Jesus not being God? Or did I misunderstand?

 

[journeymanisnothing]

I have to think about this.
Why would calvinism necessitate Jesus not being God?

Because God doesn't punish himself in place of sinners.

 

[GodsGrace]

Because God doesn't punish himself in place of sinners.

But they believe in penal substitution....
That's Jesus dying in our stead to appease a wrathful God.

 

[atpollard]

I've never heard that they don't see Jesus as God on earth....
I'd like to hear from atpollard -

“Taint so.” - atpollard

Heidelberg Catechism (1563)

Question 1. What is your only comfort in life and in death?

A. That I am not my own, but belong — body and soul, in life and in death — to my faithful Savior, Jesus Christ.​

He has fully paid for all my sins with his precious blood, and has set me free from the tyranny of the devil. He also watches over me in such a way that not a hair can fall from my head without the will of my Father in heaven; in fact, all things must work together for my salvation.​

Because I belong to him, Christ, by his Holy Spirit, assures me of eternal life and makes me wholeheartedly willing and ready from now on to live for him.​

Question 15. What kind of mediator and deliverer should we look for then?

A. One who is a true and righteous human, yet more powerful than all creatures, that is, one who is also true God.​

Question 16. Why must the mediator be a true and righteous human?

A. God’s justice demands that human nature, which has sinned, must pay for sin; but a sinful human could never pay for others.​

Question 17. Why must the mediator also be true God?

A. So that the mediator, by the power of his divinity, might bear the weight of God’s wrath in his humanity and earn for us and restore to us righteousness and life.​

Question 18. Then who is this mediator — true God and at the same time a true and righteous human?

A. Our Lord Jesus Christ, who was given to us to completely deliver us and make us right with God.​

 

[atpollard]

First let's establish what we do know Scripture teaches about this:

Romans 1:18-32 and 2 Timothy 3:1-9 are good places to start

As long as we don’t devolve into “scripture pong”.
I like both of those passages … unlike Maccabees, they are in my Bible.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

But the believe in penal substitution....

There is no such thing as penal substitution, substitute for penalty. Forgivness of sins comes only from repenting of the sins we've committed against God. This is why Jn.3:19 says,

this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world...

The condemnation is that men hated the light. In fact, sinned against him causing his death.

He bore our sins that way only. Not as a substitute. Our Father does allow sin against himself every day. Horrific sins every day. God never allows a substitute for sacrifice.

 

[Rookie]

As long as we don’t devolve into “scripture pong”.
I like both of those passages … unlike Maccabees, they are in my Bible.

You mean like ping pong? Don't worry we won't. Believer fighting over non-fundamental issues proves discord in the kingdom of God, which is an act of the flesh, (from Galatians 5:19-21)

 

[journeymanisnothing]

I've never heard that they don't see Jesus as God on earth....
I'd like to hear from atpollard -

atpollard:
“Taint so.” - atpollard

Heidelberg Catechism (1563)
Question 17. Why must the mediator also be true God?
A. So that the mediator, by the power of his divinity, might bear the weight of God’s wrath in his humanity and earn for us and restore to us righteousness and life

The gospel says Jesus was being sinned against, but held back his anger, not wanting his enemies to die in their sins.
All of our Lords' teachings concerning how we should conduct ourselves where our enemies are concerned...is so...we'll be...like the Son...who is exactly as our Father. He didn't rip wicked sinners apart...because it's not his Fathers' will.
But nowhere in the Bible does God pour his wrath out on himself.

 

[atpollard]

But nowhere in the Bible does God pour his wrath out on himself.

I happen to agree, but I lean towards the Christus Victor view of the purpose of the Atonement rather than the Penal Substitutionary view of the purpose of the Atonement. There is almost universal agreement on WHAT the Atonement accomplished, it is the speculation on the details of WHY the Atonement was necessary that theologians (including arm-chair theologians) disagree on. The reason is simple, the Bible is clear on WHAT and less clear on WHY.

• What does it mean to be a propitiation? (I am not speaking of the definition, but the theological implications).
• What does it mean to be made sin?
• What does it mean when He cried “why have you forsaken me”?
• What does Isiah’s prophesy mean?

The answer to these questions shapes your view of the WHY of the Atonement.
Christians disagree on the correct answer.
You and I happen to agree about what it was NOT.
Others disagree with us.
That does not mean that they “deny Jesus was God on Earth”.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

I happen to agree, but I lean towards the Christus Victor view of the purpose of the Atonement rather than the Penal Substitutionary view of the purpose of the Atonement.
There is almost universal agreement on WHAT the Atonement accomplished, it is the speculation on the details of WHY the Atonement was necessary that theologians (including arm-chair theologians) disagree on. The reason is simple, the Bible is clear on WHAT and less clear on WHY.

There's no difficulty in understanding why God on earth endured know it all scholars contradicting him, conspiring to kill him, etc, without pounding them into dust.

• What does it mean to be a propitiation? (I am not speaking of the definition, but the theological implications).

And when they had blindfolded him, they struck him on the face, and asked him, saying, Prophesy, who is it that smote thee? Lk.22:64

He knew who struck him and could have had those false witnesses put to death by law. Now, put yourself in Christs' place and then you'll know for sure what the implication is.

• What does it mean to be made sin?

It means the know it all theologins said Jesus was a blasphemer.

• What does it mean when He cried “why have you forsaken me”?

It means Jesus directed the know it all theologians who were mocking him, to Psa.22, where it says God never forsakes the righteous.

• What does Isiah’s prophesy mean?

It means God was pleased that his Son didn't bring know it all theologians into judgment for sinning against him.

The answer to these questions shapes your view of the WHY of the Atonement.
Christians disagree on the correct answer.
You and I happen to agree about what it was NOT.
Others disagree with us.

Then why do you agree with "TULIP"?

That does not mean that they “deny Jesus was God on Earth”.

Anyone who believes Gods' plan to pass over sin by beating himself, doesn't know him very well.

 

[atpollard]

There's no difficulty in understanding why God on earth endured know it all scholars contradicting him, conspiring to kill him, etc, without pounding them into dust.

Is THAT why God chose to be incarnate as a man, to allow himself to be crucified and what he meant by "my God, my God, why have you forsaken me" before he died (the man, not God) and rose from the dead? It was all about "know it all scholars contradicting him", was it? I trust that you have a verse to share so we can all be enlightened with your secret "gnostic" wisdom.

 

[atpollard]

Then why do you agree with "TULIP"?

... cause the Bible says so:
T. People ARE naturally evil and unwilling to come to the Light.
U. God does choose people for "the pleasure of His will" rather than any merit in us.
L. The Good Shepherd did lay down His life for His sheep (not the goats) ... a ransom for many (not all).
I. Those whom the Father DRAWS do come to the Son and He looses none of them.
P. God who began a good work in us, will complete it.

(verses available upon request if you don't already know them.)

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Is THAT why God chose to be incarnate as a man, to allow himself to be crucified

As an example of how wickedly God was sinned against, without judging those who were murdering him, yes.
atpollard,
Do you understand that to want God dead is sin?

and what he meant by "my God, my God, why have you forsaken me" before he died (the man, not God)

He meant that his Father,

hath not despised nor abhorred the afflictionof the afflicted; neither hath he hidhis face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard Psa.22:24

Because the those mocking him said,

He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him. Psa.22:8

He's quoting the mockers and how wrong they were.

and rose from the dead?

After his death, he

will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee. Psa.22:22

Do you realize our Savior knew that whole psalm?

It was all about "know it all scholars contradicting him", was it?

No. It was about know it all scholars and "arm chair" scholars contradicting him, because we've all sinned against him. I was only pointing out how the "real" scholars, those with credentials, the scribes who could quote the whole book...didn't know him.

I trust that you have a verse to share so we can all be enlightened with your secret "gnostic" wisdom.

The gospel isn't secret. God will gladly forgive any sins we've committed if we acknowledge that wrongdoing and follow him. That's what Jesus taught. Now,

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: Gal.3:13

Paul is showing that false witnesses led people into thinking Christ was cursed,

the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save. Mk.15:31

For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

But God said, "This is my beloved Son:hear him." Mk.9:7

 

[journeymanisnothing]

... cause the Bible says so:
T. People ARE naturally evil and unwilling to come to the Light.

No. It says people who don't want their evil deeds exposed won't come to the light.

U. God does choose people for "the pleasure of His will" rather than any merit in us.

Yes he does and people who ask for forgiveness acknowledge there is no merit in them.

L. The Good Shepherd did lay down His life for His sheep (not the goats) ... a ransom for many (not all).

He laid his life down for anyone who would hear and follow.

I. Those whom the Father DRAWS do come to the Son and He looses none of them.

And again, those who heard and learned about God from the Prophets were drawn to him.....because he's exactly as his Father.

P. God who began a good work in us, will complete it.

As long as believe in him.

(verses available upon request if you don't already know them.)

I know this,

the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering....the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance Rom.2:4

That is proved by the forebearance and longsuffering of his Son.

 

[atpollard]

No. It says people who don't want their evil deeds exposed won't come to the light.

Yes … Romans 3:10-12
Remember Adam and Eve?

 

[atpollard]

He laid his life down for anyone who would hear and follow.

Romans 3 … no one would.
John 6 … unless God drew them.
Ephesians 2 … because they were dead in sin.