A discussion on TOTAL DEPRAVITY

[atpollard]

And again, those who heard and learned about God from the Prophets were drawn to him.....because he's exactly as his Father.

John 10 … you do not believe BECAUSE you are not my sheep.
John 6 … all heard, not all were drawn … many went away, grumbling.

 

[atpollard]

As long as believe in him.

Philippians 2:13 says differently.
Romans 9:16 says differently.
Ephesians 2:8-10 says differently.

 

[atpollard]

Sorry, but TULIP is SCRIPTURE.
THAT is why I believe it.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Yes … Romans 3:10-12
Remember Adam and Eve?

I do recollect them. When God called Adam (after Adam was dead in sin?), Adam heard God calling and confessed that he hid, because he was "naked."
The idea that people can't be remorseful and ask forgiveness isn't taught in scripture, unless their pride won't let them.

 

[atpollard]

I do recollect them. When God called Adam (after Adam was dead in sin?), Adam heard God calling and confessed that he hid, because he was "naked."
The idea that people can't be remorseful and ask forgiveness isn't taught in scripture, unless their pride won't let them.

Adam WOULDN’T come to God (just like John 3:19-20 says) until God DREW him (just like John 6:44 says). I think it was Barnhouse that said “All of life illustrates Bible doctrine” … well, that appears to go all the way back to the first two people.

TULIP is the Bible just worded a little more compactly.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Romans 3 … no one would.

Paul says,

we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Rom.3:19

His point is, the law shows us we have no right to point fingers at others. His point isn't that people can't repent.

John 6 … unless God drew them.

It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Jn.6:45

Heard and learned from the Prophets that we better not point fingers, because we are sinners and should want mercy.
So Paul was referring to people who think they're better than others and don't need forgiveness.

Ephesians 2 … because they were dead in sin.

Since we've seen that anyone could repent, "dead in sin" simply means having the sentence of death.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph.2:8-9

Please keep in mind that in Eph.2:1, Paul is addressing new gentile converts. He first refers to them in Eph.1:13. He wanted us gentiles to know that like the Jews who knew Gods' law first (Eph.1:1-12), we aren't saved by good works, but because of the grace God showed in not destroying us...for sinning against him. That's why we're saved by Jesus...cause he put up with way more sin than I or any person I know would have.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Adam WOULDN’T come to God (just like John 3:19-20 says) until God DREW him (just like John 6:44 says).

Jn.6 nor anywhere else in scripture teaches that no trace of Adam being created in Gods' image was left after Adam committed one sin. Scripture teaches otherwise,

Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them; Ecc.12:1

Timothy was taught the scriptures. His grandma and mon loved God and no doubt taught him (2Tim.1:5.)

from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 2Tim.3:15

So God tells us,

Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it. Pro.22:6

I think it was Barnhouse that said “All of life illustrates Bible doctrine” … well, that appears to go all the way back to the first two people.

TULIP is the Bible just worded a little more compactly.

It seems to me that because Paul had the ministry of teaching the gospel to gentiles, along with the confusion among Jews (some believing, some not) that circumcision was necessary for salvation and certain foods needed to be abstained from, or even that gentiles should have their own picnic table, theologians distorted what Paul was really saying and invented myths.

 

[atpollard]

I said:

Romans 3 … no one would.

You said:

His point isn't that people can't repent.

Not "can't repent" but "won't repent".
The issue is not what natural (fallen, sinful, unsaved) men are incapable of doing [God does not ask something too hard for man to do], the issue is what natural men are unwilling to do [men exercise their free but fallen will to hide from God ... every time ... just like Adam].

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Not "can't repent" but "won't repent".
The issue is not what natural (fallen, sinful, unsaved) men are incapable of doing [God does not ask something too hard for man to do], the issue is what natural men are unwilling to do [men exercise their free but fallen will to hide from God ... every time ... just like Adam].

Paul wasn't saying no sinners will repent.
He said,

Why not say—as some slanderously claim that we say—“Let us do evil that good may result”? Their condemnation is just! Rom.3:8

He's talking about people who took his teachings about cutting foreskins off not being necessary for salvation and turned it into, "Paul said we don't have to obey the law anymore." Their damnation is just.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Btw atpollard,
Have you looked at my last post to you?

 

[atpollard]

Btw atpollard,
Have you looked at my last post to you?

Yup.

I concluded that I was REALLY NOT in the mood to sling scriptures back and forth in a “point-counter point” game of scripture pong and remembered the verse (unrelated to this topic):

“Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things.” - Philippians 4:8 [NKJV]​

​

… and I decided to find something else to do with most of my spare time.
(I guess that means you win.)

Congratulations,
You earned and deserve your victory. I choose to celebrate with you rather than continue to argue against you.

Since it is nearly midnight here, good night.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Yup.

I concluded that I was REALLY NOT in the mood to sling scriptures back and forth in a “point-counter point” game of scripture pong

Well, we should be able to explain scripture so that there is no counter point as Gods' word doesn't disagree with itself.

 

[atpollard]

Well, we should be able to explain scripture so that there is no counter point as Gods' word doesn't disagree with itself.

ok ...

Adam WOULDN’T come to God (just like John 3:19-20 says) until God DREW him (just like John 6:44 says). I think it was Barnhouse that said “All of life illustrates Bible doctrine” … well, that appears to go all the way back to the first two people.

... have at it.
(Let me know when you are ready to accept John 3:19-20 and Genesis 3:8 and acknowledge scripture.)
Adam was physically capable of going to God.
Adam was unwilling to go to God.
Sinful men are capable of going to God (just like Adam).
Sinful men are unwilling to go to God (just like Adam).

There is no COUNTERPOINT: Scripture and I have presented you with the point. It says what it says!
Are you ready to believe it, yet?

(remember YOU wanted to do this, I wanted to obey Philippians 4:8)

 

[journeymanisnothing]

ok ...

... have at it.
(Let me know when you are ready to accept John 3:19-20 and Genesis 3:8 and acknowledge scripture.)

I acknowledge them both. Please notice I'm not playing ping pong.

Jn.3:18 - Believers aren't under condemnation. Unbelievers are under condemnation
Jn.3:19 - The condemnation is how God himself appeared as one of us and many didn't want anything to do with him. The people who did want something to do with him (please see vs.18, the believers) came to the light, even though they had sinned, because they wanted forgiveness.

Adam was physically capable of going to God.
Adam was unwilling to go to God.
Sinful men are capable of going to God (just like Adam).
Sinful men are unwilling to go to God (just like Adam).

I'm not denying Adam initially hid when he heard the Word walking in the garden. I don't know anybody who would deny they've done the same thing. I know I have.
I also know I confessed those sins to people I've injured and to God. That's what Adam did when the Voice of God called to him. It doesn't say, "Adam kept running away and refused to admit what he did.

Adam did confess his sin.

There is no COUNTERPOINT: Scripture and I have presented you with the point. It says what it says!
Are you ready to believe it, yet?

I believe what I previously told you. I believe Paul had trouble with a mixed congregation of Jews and gentiles.
When Paul told gentiles they didn't need to be circumcised, unbeliving (or even some confused believing Jews) accused Paul of teaching that believers no longer have to keep the law.
Ok? So when Paul says,

Rom.3-1 - Do Jews have any advantage over gentiles?
Rom.3:2 - Yes, (as one people or nation) we Jews had the word of God before anyone else.
Rom.3:3 - What if some of the Jews didn't believe what God said? Would that make our faith, what we believe, Gods' word untrue?
Rom.3:4 - No, because David, the greatest king in Jewish history (except for Jesus), admitted committing sin worthy of death. Then David said,

thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. Psa.51:16-17

Rom.3:5 - Since our sinfulness shows how God is just, why would God be angry? (I'm speaking like a man (like an idiot.)
Rom.3:6 - Because God is going to judge us Jews by the law. So no Jew is going to say, "Hey.....lets go sin so God is glorified."
Now this is Pauls' sumation,
Rom.3:7 Because (going back to vs.5), if I really believed doing evil glorifies, I wouldn't care about sin at all.....
Rom.3:8 But here's the truth....people who accuse me of breaking the law (by not requiring circumcision....their damnation is just.

So, the Bible isn't teaching that we will never be truthful about our sins, or that the people who understand how the law condemns all, are the ones with tombs for mouths.
What's the problem?[/B]

(remember YOU wanted to do this, I wanted to obey Philippians 4:8)

I love Phl.4:8. It reminds me of how untrue Calvanism is.

 

[atpollard]

The people who did want something to do with him (please see vs.18, the believers) came to the light, even though they had sinned, because they wanted forgiveness.

Not what it says.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Not what it says.

It says what it says,

He that believeth on him is not condemned:

You're saying no body would come to him, but then there wouldn't be any believers mentioned in vs.18
As Paul continues,

but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Translation - Jesus came into the world and the unrepentant put him to death.
Why are you disagreeing with that?

 

[brightfame52]

journey

Jn.3:18 - Believers aren't under condemnation. Unbelievers are under condemnation

Thats right, those who believe in Christ give evidence they are Justified by Christ and so not condemned since Christ died for them and took away their condemnation. But people who never believe, who remain unbelievers give evidence they are condemned because Christ never died for them and took away their condemnation.

Also unbelievers who Christ did die for, are not condemned, even though they are unbelievers, because Christs death took away their condemnation for unbelief as well as for all of their sins condemnation.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yup.

I concluded that I was REALLY NOT in the mood to sling scriptures back and forth in a “point-counter point” game of scripture pong and remembered the verse (unrelated to this topic):

“Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things.” - Philippians 4:8 [NKJV]​

​

… and I decided to find something else to do with most of my spare time.
(I guess that means you win.)

Congratulations,
You earned and deserve your victory. I choose to celebrate with you rather than continue to argue against you.

Since it is nearly midnight here, good night.

I've been feeling the same lately.
We have big problems as Christianity goes.
I think we need to see how we're the same instead of different.

Of course, I retain the right to change my mind in the future!
After we've gotten our civilization back?

 

[atpollard]

Adam did confess his sin.

Would you quote the verse where Adam confesses his sin?

(I can only remember the part where Adam hides, then God compels Adam to come out of hiding so God can question him, and Adam blames Eve and God for making him sin … “that woman you gave me”.)

 

[atpollard]

Total Depravity means that God MUST draw because natural/fallen/sinful people will not voluntarily go to God … we HIDE (just like Adam and Eve did). The result is Ephesians 1 and 2.