A discussion on TOTAL DEPRAVITY

[Iconoclast]

Yes, we know its God's will that not any should perish, but all come to repentance and be born again, through hearing and believing the gospel of Jesus Christ.

No...it is Gods will that multitudes perish justly for their sins.

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

None of the elect will perish.

Do you believe it's God's will that not anyone in the world would perish?

No,multitudes perish,Mt7:21-24

JLB

 

[Iconoclast]

Funny, you didn't understand atpollard s
Post either.
I never said Calvin taught that God is unjust. He did face the question, however. But I'm through proving to you what YOU should know to be true.

I don't think you understand the reformed faith.
No. Really.
Look into it.

Of course! None of the Calvinists understand the reformed faith, but you do! Why does fast Freddy oppose your posts when you do thisthe whole time?

 

[Iconoclast]

Well .. I don't think this discussion can go any further downhill. I suggest a truce.

I had read a couple of posts a few weeks ago, but had not come back till tonight. It was really bad and a strawman fest. Unfortunately, I have seen worse

 

[GodsGrace]

You studied for ten years, you should know

Why are calvinists so mean and prideful?
It must be because you think your special because God chose you.

As to your post, doesn't merit a reply.
It just means you dont understand what persons say really well.

I never claimed to have studied Arminius.
Drink that coffee and wake up.

 

[GodsGrace]

Of course! None of the Calvinists understand the reformed faith, but you do! Why does fast Freddy oppose your posts when you do thisthe whole time?

Yes.
Apparently the above is true.
Most calvinists hear the sweet teachings of their pastor instead of studying calvin or the reformed faith. This I have done. The only reformed on this board for which I have any respect is atpollard.

Have you missed me that I had to wake up to 26 alerts?

 

[journeymanisnothing]

You are wrong once again. The little children Jesus spoke of were believers Total depravity is the biblical teaching.

Children believe what they are taught, so right there, the instruction to train them in the ways of our Lord proves total depravity wrong.

 

[GodsGrace]

You are wrong once again. The little children Jesus spoke of were believers Total depravity is the biblical teaching.

If Jesus spoke about LITTLE CHILDREN
and really meant BELIEVERS

Whoa!
How could we trust anything He says if He doesn't say what He means???

 

[GodsGrace]

You are committing a 9th commandment violation every time you post these falsehoods

They are not falsehoods Icon.
What I post is what the reformed/calvinists believe.

If YOU don't believe it, then don't call yourself a calvinist.

 

[GodsGrace]

You just want to invent your own gospel. God is just. Not all men know how to be saved.

God is not just according to Calvin's teachings.
Any confession can STATE God is just....
that does not make Him so, in that theology.
In Calvinist theology God is rendered UNJUST.

Could you even imagine calling God, the Creator, unjust!

It's blasphemy!

 

[Fastfredy0]

What I post is what the reformed/calvinists believe.

Wrong ... you ignorantly post what you believe Reformed teach.
Example:

God is not just according to Calvin's teachings.

This suggests intellectual shallowness, ignorance or lying. I've called you on it before. Give me a quote from the Calvin's Institutes where he says God is Unjust. A quote means the edition and page number. Don't try again to hide your deceit via saying something like "you can read the book for yourself". If you find such a quote I will humbly apologize.
Aside: The official teachings for Reformed Theology are best found in WCF and 1689 London Confession. There is minor variations.

Unlike the Roman Catholic faith which you support that has a foundation of Tradition and thus has strayed from God's word ... "When you understand the idolatry of the mass, that propitiatory sacrifice of Christ can never save anyone, the treasury of merit, indulgences, the excess merit of Mary, purgatory, that one righteousness consists of that of Christ, Mary, the saints and oneself, sacraments, that the priest is another Christ … then one does not have the gospel of that leads to salvation". James White ....

Reformed theology is base solely on the Bible. Their confession states: "The Holy Scripture is the only sufficient, certain, and infallible rule of all saving knowledge, faith, and obedience." They admit their confession is susceptible to error, but it is an earnest attempt to understand God's written word. Perhaps you should post scripture to back up your opinions instead of your obvious inability to understand reform theology as demonstrated by your ignorant statement:

In Calvinist theology God is rendered UNJUST.

 

[GodsGrace]

Wrong ... you ignorantly post what you believe Reformed teach.
Example:

This suggests intellectual shallowness, ignorance or lying. I've called you on it before. Give me a quote from the Calvin's Institutes where he says God is Unjust. A quote means the edition and page number. Don't try again to hide your deceit via saying something like "you can read the book for yourself". If you find such a quote I will humbly apologize.
Aside: The official teachings for Reformed Theology are best found in WCF and 1689 London Confession. There is minor variations.

Unlike the Roman Catholic faith which you support that has a foundation of Tradition and thus has strayed from God's word ... "When you understand the idolatry of the mass, that propitiatory sacrifice of Christ can never save anyone, the treasury of merit, indulgences, the excess merit of Mary, purgatory, that one righteousness consists of that of Christ, Mary, the saints and oneself, sacraments, that the priest is another Christ … then one does not have the gospel of that leads to salvation". James White ....

Reformed theology is base solely on the Bible. Their confession states: "The Holy Scripture is the only sufficient, certain, and infallible rule of all saving knowledge, faith, and obedience." They admit their confession is susceptible to error, but it is an earnest attempt to understand God's written word. Perhaps you should post scripture to back up your opinions instead of your obvious inability to understand reform theology as demonstrated by your ignorant statement:

FF
I NEVER said Calvin said God is unjust.
I said THATS HOW GOD TURNS OUT TO BE.

Do you understand the difference?
I dont think so.

Can't speak to persons that dont know Enflish well.
Sorry.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Premise 1:

I NEVER said Calvin said God is unjust.

Premise 2:

God is not just according to Calvin's teachings.

This is a contradiction.

Hey, I think I know what you are trying to say. But you can't articulate it well. I think you are trying to say that Calvin's teaching make God unjust in your mind. This is different that saving:

God is not just according to Calvin's teachings.

I can twist word too ...
Wondering thinks the only way to heaven is Faith in Christ
Wondering knows many people are doomed to Hell because they never heard of Christ
God is not just according to Wondering's theology.

 

[GodsGrace]

Premise 1:


Premise 2:

This is a contradiction.

Hey, I think I know what you are trying to say. But you can't articulate it well. I think you are trying to say that Calvin's teaching make God unjust in your mind. This is different that saving:


I can twist word too ...
Wondering thinks the only way to heaven is Faith in Christ
Wondering knows many people are doomed to Hell because they never heard of Christ
God is not just according to Wondering's theology.

Wrong.
On all.
God is very just.
And I'm very capable of articulating what's in my mind.
End of story.

 

[Iconoclast]

Why are calvinists so mean and prideful?

Calm down W.:nod You have posted a dozen times that you have studied these things for 10 years, and assured us you know what you are talking about! Your posts tell a different story however.
It is not possible to study this for ten years and not know who Arminius was[Jacob Hermonson]

It is you that have on numerous occasions flat out posted that Calvinists worship a "different God". That is to say we are not saved as there is only one God.
FREE has corrected you over and over on this, yet i read through this thread last night and every post from your keyboard was an attack post. I have no problem with you posting your differences, by all means go ahead.
However, once you do, you will be answered and I see you have been by all the Calvinist brothers and even other brothers who are objective enough to see it.

It must be because you think your special because God chose you.

We know we are sinners saved by God for a purpose to serve God. Part of that is to contend for the faith once delievered to the saints.Jude3

As to your post, doesn't merit a reply.

I do not need a reply, I spent hours seeing the attack posts, got it ,thanks

It just means you dont understand what persons say really well.

In your mind, I am sure you believe that. I am okay with the fact that until God allows someone to welcome truth

I never claimed to have studied Arminius.

To really study that would be a must as Calvinists mention it quite often

Drink that coffee and wake upI

I am drinking it now, my confused friend

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes.
Apparently the above is true.
Most calvinists hear the sweet teachings of their pastor instead of studying calvin or the reformed faith.

If you have never been a member of a Calvinist teaching church you would not know what they do.

This I have done. The only reformed on this board for which I have any respect is atpollard.

Pollard is a good solid brother, you should enjoy his posting as he is more gracious than I am. Not all reformed or calvinist brothers are cut from a cookie cutter mold. The other brothers might not agree with me all the time,and I might post small differences with them. that is all good however,as some of them might be more gifted than I am, or have studied themselves into a slightly different understanding.We all grow and mature at different rates
Fast Freddy, Brightflame, and Elected by Him, are solid brothers, Free has offered very solid teaching to you, and has admitted he still has questions and differences with us on these things. Others have said they attend churches of a reformed flavor, but they are still working through issues with the teaching.
The poster Tenchi has differed on the teaching, posted some objections and differences, but at the same time he has posted very solidly and had some sharp observations that are well written, spot on, and edifying even with our differences. There are a few others along that line. people are all at different places.

Have you missed me that I had to wake up to 26 alerts?

Yes...I did miss you. I had not read this whole thread before last night. I had seen the thread early on and it had not developed to where it is now. Most every post seemed hostile. I felt guilty for not supporting the other Calvinists as they tried to fend off the attacks.

 

[JLB]

No...it is Gods will that multitudes perish justly for their sins.

Please provide the scripture that says what you claim.

Here is the scripture that says It's not God's will that any should perish.


The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9




JLB

 

[Iconoclast]

They are not falsehoods Icon.

They are caricatures and strawmen

What I post is what the reformed/calvinists believe.

No, what you post is what you wrongly perceive them to be saying. As FF said, you do sort of try and back up your claims, but FF has posted several times now for you to back up your claims with direct quotes or facts, and you have not.

If YOU don't believe it, then don't call yourself a calvinist.

I am a Calvinist and even those who do not agree with me, know that.
What I believe is mainstream and can be found in John Murrays book Redemption, Accomplished, and Applied.
Any Calvinist , and most of the non Calvinists know that is so. What the JW's believe is not relevant.

 

[Iconoclast]

Please provide the scripture that says what you claim.

Here is the scripture that says It's not God's will that any should perish.


The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9




JLB

Yes...I have posted this several times. Every single person Peter is speaking of will be saved . Not one will be lost. In Context of the two letters, Peter is speaking of the elect . Both 1 pet, and 2pet. it is the to USWARD...NOT WILLING THAT ANY PERISH, it is not all mankind without exception.
Those that were saved, those who were not born yet, [hence the longsuffering of God that results in salvation]

3 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
[he had already taught this, now reminding them]

2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness;
but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

The text portions that are bolded in purple refer to believers who are and who will be saved, in contrast to the scoffers and those who oppose the doctrines of grace......read it over looking at the contrast, us, beloved, weVS. the scoffing mocking unbelievers. Let me know if this helps

 

[JLB]

Yes...I have posted this several times. Every single person Peter is speaking of will be saved . Not one will be lost. In Context of the two letters, Peter is speaking of the elect . Both 1 pet, and 2pet. it is the to USWARD...NOT WILLING THAT ANY PERISH, it is not all mankind without exception.
Those that were saved, those who were not born yet, [hence the longsuffering of God that results in salvation]

3 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
[he had already taught this, now reminding them]

2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness;
but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

The text portions that are bolded in purple refer to believers who are and who will be saved, in contrast to the scoffers and those who oppose the doctrines of grace......read it over looking at the contrast, us, beloved, weVS. the scoffing mocking unbelievers. Let me know if this helps

So far you have presented no scripture that validates your claim that says... it is Gods will that multitudes perish justly for their sins.


Let me know when you find it.






JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Calm down W.:nod You have posted a dozen times that you have studied these things for 10 years, and assured us you know what you are talking about! Your posts tell a different story however.
It is not possible to study this for ten years and not know who Arminius was[Jacob Hermonson]

Of course I know what I'm talking about.
Otherwise I keep my mouth shut.
And I'm very calm.

It is you that have on numerous occasions flat out posted that Calvinists worship a "different God". That is to say we are not saved as there is only one God.
FREE has corrected you over and over on this, yet i read through this thread last night and every post from your keyboard was an attack post. I have no problem with you posting your differences, by all means go ahead.
However, once you do, you will be answered and I see you have been by all the Calvinist brothers and even other brothers who are objective enough to see it.

You've mentioned Free. Please tag in members when you speak of them so that they can know they were mentioned.
The God Calvinists worship has a DIFFERENT NATURE than the God all other denominations worship.
This does not mean you are not saved. I leave that determination up to God.
As to being corrected by Free - I have the utmost respect for Free.
But we can have differing beliefs about our faith.
As to attacking you...I don't believe I attack you - sometimes I get sarcastic with you, I think you know the difference. Actually, I kind of like you and wish you were on my side of the fence.
And you are welcomed to reply to me.
It's always a good opportunity to post about the TRUE NATURE OF GOD.

We know we are sinners saved by God for a purpose to serve God. Part of that is to contend for the faith once delievered to the saints.Jude3

I do not need a reply, I spent hours seeing the attack posts, got it ,thanks

In your mind, I am sure you believe that. I am okay with the fact that until God allows someone to welcome truth

In my mind, I KNOW you either don't understand what I say or do not wish to respond to it.
You complain that I don't use scripture and when I do you just reply with another scripture.
I wish you'd explain the one I post like I do to yours.
I'm not holding my breath.

To really study that would be a must as Calvinists mention it quite often

I am drinking it now, my confused friend

Calvinists call EVERYONE that is not reformed an arminian.
Most of us that are not Calvinist don't know who Arminius was or what he believed AND
WE DON'T CARE.

We like to stick to traditional Christian beliefs.

You believe you are unable to forfeit your salvation because of the P in TULIP.
Certainly it's God Himself that keeps you from stumbling and loosing what you feel He has gifted to you.

So what does this verse mean to you:

Colossians 1:22-23
21And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— 23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard,