A discussion on TOTAL DEPRAVITY

[GodsGrace]

The fallen natural man Jesus says that he loves darkness rather than light, so he cant change his natural will and make Jesus a liar, Jesus knows whats in all men Jn 3:19

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Jesus uses the indicative mood for Loved, meaning its a stated fact. Evil here isnt merely immorality and stuff like that, but it includes religiosity, mans religions outside of Christ is darkness and evil, no matter how sincere.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Evil here isnt merely immorality and stuff like that, but it includes religiosity, mans religions outside of Christ is darkness and evil, no matter how sincere.

Would that include much of the Roman Catholic religious beliefs????

Do you believe Roman Catholics are Christians (go to heaven) assuming they hold to the official beliefs the the R.C. Church?

 

[atpollard]

Do you believe Roman Catholics are Christians (go to heaven) assuming they hold to the official beliefs the the R.C. Church?

"If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved." [NLT]

• Is it possible for a RC to "confess with their mouth that Jesus is LORD"?
• Can a RC believe in their heart that God raised Jesus from the dead?
• Then what, specifically, in the OFFICIAL BELIEFS of the RCC would prevent God from honoring His promise in Romans 10:9-10 (above)?

 

[brightfame52]

Would that include much of the Roman Catholic religious beliefs????

Do you believe Roman Catholics are Christians (go to heaven) assuming they hold to the official beliefs the the R.C. Church?

I dont put no one in hell because of false beliefs because all of Gods elect before converted believe false doctrines, it could be now some of the elect are yet in the roman catholic church yet uncalled, however, back to my point, evil deeds many times in scripture is not immorality, but evil doctrines. What you think John means here as evil deeds 2 Jn 1:10-11

10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

 

[Fastfredy0]

"If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved." [NLT]

• Is it possible for a RC to "confess with their mouth that Jesus is LORD"?
• Can a RC believe in their heart that God raised Jesus from the dead?
• Then what, specifically, in the OFFICIAL BELIEFS of the RCC would prevent God from honoring His promise in Romans 10:9-10 (above)?

• Can an active homosexual who follows your points be saved? 1 Corinthians 6:9-11
• Can a person worship idols and be saved (transubstantiation)?
• Can those who rely on works for salvation (baptism, observing the Catholic sacraments, etc.) by saved? Gal. 5:2-6 (Gee, for merely thinking one must be circumcised Paul is saying: " 4 You have been severed from Christ, if you seek to be ]justified [that is, declared free of the guilt of sin and its penalty, and placed in right standing with God] through the Law
• Can a man serve two masters? (Matt. 6:24)
• Roman Catholicism does not truly hold to salvation by grace through faith. Theirs is a different, unbiblical formula for salvation
• Indulgences, the Roman Catholic Church that granted full or partial remission of the punishment of sin? The goodness of the saint being used to cover up sins ...
• Can an active adulterers who follows your points be saved? 1 Corinthians 6:9-11

"If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. .... even the demons believe ... .granted, Christ didn't die for them
I hope I'm wrong ... I would be awfully nervous about hearing "depart from me I never knew you" ...many protestants scholars state that people that adhere to R.C. doctrine are doomed. Example: https://www.gotquestions.org/are-Catholics-saved.html

 

[GodsGrace]

• Can an active homosexual who follows your points be saved? 1 Corinthians 6:9-11
• Can a person worship idols and be saved (transubstantiation)?
• Can those who rely on works for salvation (baptism, observing the Catholic sacraments, etc.) by saved? Gal. 5:2-6 (Gee, for merely thinking one must be circumcised Paul is saying: " 4 You have been severed from Christ, if you seek to be ]justified [that is, declared free of the guilt of sin and its penalty, and placed in right standing with God] through the Law
• Can a man serve two masters? (Matt. 6:24)
• Roman Catholicism does not truly hold to salvation by grace through faith. Theirs is a different, unbiblical formula for salvation
• Indulgences, the Roman Catholic Church that granted full or partial remission of the punishment of sin? The goodness of the saint being used to cover up sins ...
• Can an active adulterers who follows your points be saved? 1 Corinthians 6:9-11

"If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. .... even the demons believe ... .granted, Christ didn't die for them
I hope I'm wrong ... I would be awfully nervous about hearing "depart from me I never knew you" ...many protestants scholars state that people that adhere to R.C. doctrine are doomed. Example: https://www.gotquestions.org/are-Catholics-saved.html

Anyone can be saved.
We're all a work in progress.

And God gets to decide who's saved,
Not you.

John 13:35

 

[Fastfredy0]

I dont put no one in hell because of false beliefs

You may not by God says He does. Gal. 5:3 Once more I solemnly affirm to every man who receives circumcision [as a supposed requirement of salvation], that he is under obligation and required to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, if you seek to be [a]justified [that is, declared free of the guilt of sin and its penalty, and placed in right standing with God] through the Law; you have fallen from grace [for you have lost your grasp on God’s unmerited favor and blessing].

all of Gods elect before converted believe false doctrines

Agree .. I'm sure I have some now.

it could be now some of the elect are yet in the roman catholic church yet uncalled

For sure; God may regenerate them, turning their minds to him. Probably not as likely given the environment they are in. Gee, you could be going to brothels and be called ... just doesn't happen often (IMO ... I don't have stats *giggle*).
Some R.C. adherents may not go along with R.C. doctrine although they attend the R.C. Church and may be saved.

What you think John means here as evil deeds 2 Jn 1:10-11

10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Be separate from those espousing bad biblical doctrine. Thus, by way of example, stir clear of the R. C. Church and their traditions which are the apex of their theology.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Anyone can be saved.
We're all a work in progress.

Anyone God chooses can be saved. Psalm 65:4; Matt. 20:16; Matt. 22:14; John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all; John 15:16 You did not choose me, but I [Jesus] chose you, Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed (decided on beforehand; designated) for eternal life believed, and 70 other similar verses
Yeah, I know you believe Muslims can be saved but as usual have no scripture to verify your claim. You don't use scripture too often. John 3:18 says one must know Christ to be saved.

And God gets to decide who's saved,
Not you.

Gee, we agree.
But you contradict your previous posts. Your theology teaches God gives EVERYONE WITH EXCEPTION the opportunity to be saved. According to you, it is up to the individual via dualistic Free Willism to be determine their eternal state despite no Free Will verse anywhere in the Bible. This is contrary to God's word (see above for 5 verses of 70 saying GOD chooses us) and not the other way around. You and the R.C. Church use R.C. tradition rather than the Bible to determine God's will.

 

[brightfame52]

ff

Be separate from those espousing bad biblical doctrine. Thus, by way of example, stir clear of the R. C. Church and their traditions which are the apex of their theology.

Yes false doctrine is evil deeds, no matter what denomination.

 

[atpollard]

Can an active homosexual who follows your points be saved?

Can one follow PAUL’S POINTS and be an active homosexual?
(I do not deserve the credit for coming up with the words in Romans 10:9-10).

 

[atpollard]

Can a person worship idols and be saved (transubstantiation)?

No, but a person worshiping Idols is not obeying Romans 10:9 and declaring Jesus is LORD, so the promise is not for them, is it?

Now is “Transubstitution” really worshiping idols or denying that Jesus is Lord?

Is it not just bad doctrine and misunderstanding about the eucharist?

Does God really damn people for getting a point of doctrine wrong?

 

[Fastfredy0]

Can one follow PAUL’S POINTS and be an active homosexual?
(I do not deserve the credit for coming up with the words in Romans 10:9-10).

I'll go private with my answer.

 

[Fastfredy0]

No, but a person worshiping Idols is not obeying Romans 10:9 and declaring Jesus is LORD, so the promise is not for them, is it?

I addressed this more at length in our private conversion .

Now is “Transubstitution” really worshiping idols or denying that Jesus is Lord? Is it not just bad doctrine and misunderstanding about the eucharist?

Transubstitution... the miraculous change by which according to Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox dogma the eucharistic elements at their consecration become the body and blood of Christ while keeping only the appearances of bread and wine.
“You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them."

They're making physical items (bread and water) in parts of God. Sounds like idol worship by my definition.

Does God really damn people for getting a point of doctrine wrong?

Good question. Yes, No and I don't know .... Black, white and grey areas.

White:
The apostle Peter (supposed 1st Pope *giggle*) is going to heaven and Paul chastised him for bad doctrine so obviously some bad doctrine/activity doesn't determine one's eternal fate. I know I'm toast being perfect in doctrine is a requirement as I am sure I've got some bad doctrine (if I knew what was bad I'd change it). (Probably best to not have Wondering as my lawyer)

Black:

• Salvific faith requires knowledge of Christ. Muslims have bad doctrine in this area. They are toast.
• Someone that says the must be circumcised to be saved. (Gal. 5:2-6)
• Practicing homosexuals

Light Grey: Salvific faith requires knowledge of Christ. What are the required aspects. Hopefully, not to complicated as the verse "if one has the faith of a child"... hopefully applies ... but if you ask 10 knowledgeable Christians for a list of facts you will get 9 different answers IMO. (Aside: I have my best guess)

Grey (when I say "grey" I imply IMO)

• Those that believe they must be water baptized (eerily similar to "circumcision of Gal. 5:2-6)
• Those that take partial credit for their salvation
• Those who don't support the Dallas Cowboys (had to lighten up the mood )
• Those who claim Jesus is not God (John 20:31 and 1 John 5:31)
• Then there's several attributes of those not going to heaven that are not well defined in 1 Cor. 6:9-11 like: nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers

I know I'm glad that God chooses efficaciously and it doesn't depend upon me to get it perfect/close to perfect/I can't screw it up/whatever

 

[Hopeful]

No I don't. I use biblehub.
When I first joined this forum I used to TYPE OUT the verses because I didn't know about these helps!!

You must have held a party when you discovered copy/paste.

I just happened upon one called BIBLEREF yesterday. It looked interesting so I'll have to take the time to check it out.
It had the verse and supporting verses, that could come in handy at times.

Biblehub also has commentaries , which I do use rarely.
And as to keeping a tab....
absolutely not!
I keep my computer closed as much as possible.
I had a ransomware attack a few years ago and it's not pleasant.

I don't know enough about computers to comment on "tabs".
But I never considered it dangerous.
Now I'm worried...
...and I just noticed I can type in "worried" in order to find an emoji !!!
Hah, next thing you know they will have indoor plumbing !

 

[Alfred Persson]

First we need to accurately define some terms:

ORIGINAL SIN: It is not, as some think, talking about the very first sin that Adam and Eve committed. The Church has historically talked about “the doctrine of Original Sin” and meant the consequences to the human race because of that first sin. In short, something happened at that first sin that has impacted the entire human race … we “fell” and our nature is now influenced by the power of evil. The issue of Original Sin is that we are not sinners because we sin, but rather, we sin because we are by nature sinners!


So now let’s discuss the “T” of TULIP: TOTAL DEPRAVITY

WHAT TOTAL DEPRAVITY IS NOT:
Total Depravity is not UTTER DEPRAVITY. Every human being is not as bad as they could possibly be. (Even Adolph Hitler probably loved his mother, so there is room for everyone to be more evil than they are.)

WHAT TOTAL DEPRAVITY IS:
Total Depravity means that the fall affects the whole man. The fallenness that corrupts our nature, affects our BODIES - so we become sick and we die. The fallenness that corrupts our nature, affects our MINDS - so our thoughts become what the Bible calls “darkened” and “weakened”. The fallenness that corrupts our nature, affects our WILL - according to Paul we are now in bondage and enslaved to the evil desires of our hearts. The fallenness that corrupts our nature, affects our SPIRIT - we are no longer born with that innate spiritual connection to God that Adam once had and which only Christ can restore. So the fall has corrupted our bodies, our minds, our will and our spirit … the WHOLE MAN is corrupted by the power of sin.

R.C. Sproul likes to call it “Radical Corruption” because the Latin origin for “radical” is the word “root”. It designates that the problem with man and sin is not something applied to the surface of us, but rather it is something that comes from the very core of us. The REFORMED view of fallen man is that our “sin problem” is something that originates in the very “core” or “heart” or “innermost” part of us. It is not shallow or superficial. It is not easily removed.

Thus no small adjustments from the outside can change a man. Salvation requires radical transformation beginning at the core of who we are. God must transform our heart before anything else is possible.

That is the essence of the Reformed doctrine of TOTAL DEPRAVITY.

(After I get some sleep, we can discuss whether or not Scripture actually teaches any of this … or if people just made it up out of whole cloth. For now, we at least have an understanding of what the term actually means.)

Although I acknowledge Total Depravity, "prevenient grace" extends salvation to the entire world so "whosoever believes" can be saved.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. (Jn. 3:16 NKJ)

Its never God's fault someone is lost.

God comes near to every soul so He can be found, hence His offer to everyone thirsty is genuine:

"Ho! Everyone who thirsts, Come to the waters; And you who have no money, Come, buy and eat. Yes, come, buy wine and milk Without money and without price.
2 Why do you spend money for what is not bread, And your wages for what does not satisfy? Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good, And let your soul delight itself in abundance.
3 Incline your ear, and come to Me. Hear, and your soul shall live; And I will make an everlasting covenant with you-- The sure mercies of David.
4 Indeed I have given him as a witness to the people, A leader and commander for the people.
5 Surely you shall call a nation you do not know, And nations who do not know you shall run to you, Because of the LORD your God, And the Holy One of Israel; For He has glorified you."
6 Seek the LORD while He may be found, Call upon Him while He is near.
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, And the unrighteous man his thoughts; Let him return to the LORD, And He will have mercy on him; And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.
8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the LORD.
(Isa. 55:1-8 NKJ)

No one comes into the world lacking sufficient light to be saved by grace through faith in Christ. Its a gift from God and not of ourselves.

That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world. (Jn. 1:9 NKJ)

But "prevenient grace" can be resisted and rejected by the wicked, and when they do not one of them will go unpunished.

Words in Red teach "prevenient grace", "the goodness of God" enables us to choose life, but it can be resisted by an "impenitent heart".

4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds":
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness-- indignation and wrath,
9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God. (Rom. 2:4-11 NKJ)

That is why Reprobation is unscriptural and men can be justly judged for their choice to reject Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

Anyone God chooses can be saved. Psalm 65:4; Matt. 20:16; Matt. 22:14; John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all; John 15:16 You did not choose me, but I [Jesus] chose you, Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed (decided on beforehand; designated) for eternal life believed, and 70 other similar verses
Yeah, I know you believe Muslims can be saved but as usual have no scripture to verify your claim. You don't use scripture too often. John 3:18 says one must know Christ to be saved.


Gee, we agree.
But you contradict your previous posts. Your theology teaches God gives EVERYONE WITH EXCEPTION the opportunity to be saved. According to you, it is up to the individual via dualistic Free Willism to be determine their eternal state despite no Free Will verse anywhere in the Bible. This is contrary to God's word (see above for 5 verses of 70 saying GOD chooses us) and not the other way around. You and the R.C. Church use R.C. tradition rather than the Bible to determine God's will.

As long as you keep referring to the Catholic Church in my regard, I will not reply to your posts.
If you don't know why after all the time you're here, it only means you don't read posts properly.

 

[GodsGrace]

You must have held a party when you discovered copy/paste.

YES!!

I don't know enough about computers to comment on "tabs".
But I never considered it dangerous.
Now I'm worried...

You said you saved Biblegateway on a tab.
The only way I know to do this is to place BG on a tab and then keep the computer open.
The tabs shut down when closing the computer.
Am I wrong about this?
Is there a way to keep a tab open AND shut down the computer?

If you NEVER shut down you're computer, you should be a little worried...
It really should be shut down when not in use.

What a drag. I used to keep it open all the time too.

...and I just noticed I can type in "worried" in order to find an emoji !!!
Hah, next thing you know they will have indoor plumbing !

Yes.

 

[Hopeful]

YES!!

You said you saved Biblegateway on a tab.
The only way I know to do this is to place BG on a tab and then keep the computer open.
The tabs shut down when closing the computer.
Am I wrong about this?
Is there a way to keep a tab open AND shut down the computer?

By "tab" I mean one of those things at the top of the page (task bar?) that you hit to open, in this case, biblegateway.com; or Az baseball or St.L. baseball.
It is closed until I open it

If you NEVER shut down you're computer, you should be a little worried...
It really should be shut down when not in use.

Agreed, and exactly what I do.
I even undo the electric supply when I am done with it... so "they" can't sneak in that way...

What a drag. I used to keep it open all the time too.

Not me, I'm an electricity miser.

Yes.

 

[GodsGrace]

By "tab" I mean one of those things at the top of the page (task bar?) that you hit to open, in this case, biblegateway.com; or Az baseball or St.L. baseball.
It is closed until I open it

Agreed, and exactly what I do.
I even undo the electric supply when I am done with it... so "they" can't sneak in that way...

Not me, I'm an electricity miser.

OK. I think what you do is that every time you turn your computer on, you get BG on one of the tabs and leave it there.
I do that with Biblehub for verses I want to paste and copy. If I can't remember the verse, I type in a few words of it on google and it gives me the verse. The internet could be so nice! (or not).

Pulling out the electric current is also good when there are storms.
Lightening bolts could go through the system and ruin the computer.

Guess we better get back to topic before I get banned!!

 

[atpollard]

No one comes into the world lacking sufficient light to be saved by grace through faith in Christ.

The grandfather of Montezuma II, last king of the Aztec Empire, died 50 years before the Gospel arrived in Mexico. How did he obtain “sufficient light to be saved by grace through faith in Christ”?