A quick look at the 4 Christian baptisms

[JLB]

unquenchable fire that actually burns up the chaff, not something that looks like fire.

So you believe that the foretold baptism with the Holy Spirit and Fire was not the event that took place on the day of Pentecost?

Specifically Acts 2:3?

Can you post the scripture when this baptism of the Holy Spirit and Fire took place, if not on the day of Pentecost?



JLB

 

[chessman]

Why would the baptism of the Holy Spirit burn someone up?

Makes no sense.

That's because I didn't say the Baptism of the Holy Spirit would burn someone up. Nor does Luke, in Acts 2:3, say that any actual fire was there that day nor was any chaff burned up. He said they saw something 'like" fire and heard something "like" a rushing wind. He didn't say they saw actual fire. One must add that idea to the Text. I believe the Text. I believe the Baptism with (or in) fire will occur (just like it actually says) in fire (inextinguishable fire) and it will cleanse-out His threshing floor and gather His wheat into the barn.


Acts 2:1-3 Disciples’ Literal New Testament (DLNT)

2 And during the day of Pentecost being fulfilled, they were all together at the same place. 2 And suddenly a noise from heaven like of a violent rushing wind took place, and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 And dividing tongues as-if of fire appeared to them. And it sat on each one of them. ​

The underlined word (Hos) is there in the Text for a reason. It simply means "like" or "as-if". Something like fire appeared to them that day, not actual fire as you assume. Per the Text, it was like fire. Believe it or not, it's up to you. And furthermore, when the Baptism with fire occurs, it will be evident to all by the gathering of His wheat and burning-up of the wheat chaff with an inextinguishable fire (not something like fire).

Matthew 3:11-12 Disciples’ Literal New Testament (DLNT)​

11 I am baptizing you with[a] water for repentance, but the One coming after me is more powerful than me, of Whom I am not fit to carry the sandals. He will baptize you with[b] the Holy Spirit and fire[c]— 12 Whose winnowing-tool is in His hand, and He will cleanse-out His threshing floor and gather His wheat into the barn. But He will burn up the chaff with an inextinguishable fire”.​

​

Footnotes:

1. Matthew 3:11 Or, in.
   1. Matthew 3:11 Or, in.
   2. Matthew 3:11 This fire of judgment may be with regard to unbelievers, the chaff mentioned next, or with regard to the purifying work of the Spirit on believers.

Luke 3:16-17 Disciples’ Literal New Testament (DLNT)

16 John responded, saying to everyone, “I am baptizing you with[a] water, but the One more powerful than me is coming, of Whom I am not fit to untie the strap of His sandals. He will baptize you with[b] the Holy Spirit and fire[c]— 17 Whose winnowing-tool is in His hand so as to clean-out[d] His threshing floor and gather the wheat into His barn; but He will burn up the chaff with an inextinguishable fire”. ​

Footnotes:

1. Luke 3:16 Or, in.
2. Luke 3:16 Or, in.
3. Luke 3:16 See Mt 3:11.
4. Luke 3:17 That is, by separating the threshings into wheat and chaff, and taking each to their destinations.

Fire.

You've posted and bolded "divided tongues, as of fire" from the NKJV multiple times. Now you're changing your mind and relying on Brian Simmons' translation that he claims Jesus personally visited with him (literally) and revealed this translation to him??? No need to answer because you cannot change the manuscripts we have that clearly state that on the day of Pentecost, there appeared "hosei pyros" (like fire).

It’s the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and Fire.


Just like what John the Baptist foretold.


John answered, saying to all, “I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. Luke 3:16

If it's "just like" John the Baptist foretold, then why are you changing what he said (adding a definite article 'the' and capitalizing Fire??? There's no such phrase in the Bible "the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and Fire". And again (last time) if the day of Pentecost was "just like" John the Baptist prophesied then why didn't John say that something like fire ("hosei pyros") would appear to them???

So you believe that the foretold baptism with the Holy Spirit and Fire was not the event that took place on the day of Pentecost?

Specifically Acts 2:3?

Again, John didn't foretell a single baptism called 'the Baptism with the Holy Spirit and Fire' as if it were one baptism, one event, on one day. And I've already told you what I believe and more importantly why (because that's what the Text literally says).
This is why I asked you (and you agreed) that it was the actual Holy Spirit that was actually filling them that day. Not something like the Holy Spirit, but rather the actual Holy Spirit filling them. Yet the Text of Acts 2 doesn't say that actual fire (or as you now capitalize the word Fire for some odd reason) was even there nor filled them. And furthermore, we know that no actual inextinguishable fire was there that day because they (the wheat) were not gathered into the barn that day nor was the wheat's chaff (the outer covering of the wheat grain) burned up that day.

Can you post the scripture when this baptism of the Holy Spirit and Fire took place,

There's no such thing as a single ("this") baptism even mentioned in the Bible. There's a baptism with/in water, a baptism with/in the Holy Spirit "and" there's a baptism with/in fire (inextinguishable fire). When the baptism with/in fire occurs, His wheat will be gathered into the barn and the wheat's chaff will be burned up. That's when it will take place.

 

[JLB]

He said they saw something 'like" fire

I didn’t see where that was said.


Here are the three versions I have presented.




Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. Acts 2:3


Then all at once a pillar of fire appeared before their eyes. It separated into tongues of fire that engulfed each one of them.
Acts 2:3 TPT


and there appeared to them divided tongues, as it were of fire; it sat also upon each one of them, Acts 2:3



Nothing here about “like fire”.

Actually just the opposite, these all say fire.


Just so I know where you stand on this doctrine, can you tell me if you believe the day of Pentecost was the foretold baptism of the Holy Spirit and Fire, spoken of by John the Baptist, or not?


A simple yes or no please.


JLB

 

[JLB]

when the Baptism with fire occurs, it will be evident to all by the gathering of His wheat and burning-up of the wheat chaff with an inextinguishable fire (not something like fire).

So you believe it has not yet occurred and when it does, it will physically burn up the chaff, where this will be visible to all.


What is the chaff this parabolic reference is referring to, that will be burned up?



JLB

 

[WIP]

I didn’t see where that was said.


Here are the three versions I have presented.




Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. Acts 2:3


Then all at once a pillar of fire appeared before their eyes. It separated into tongues of fire that engulfed each one of them.
Acts 2:3 TPT


and there appeared to them divided tongues, as it were of fire; it sat also upon each one of them, Acts 2:3



Nothing here about “like fire”.

Actually just the opposite, these all say fire.


Just so I know where you stand on this doctrine, can you tell me if you believe the day of Pentecost was the foretold baptism of the Holy Spirit and Fire, spoken of by John the Baptist, or not?


A simple yes or no please.


JLB

I don't know, JLB, but the NKJV which you quoted renders it "divided tongues as of fire." The KJV renders it "cloven tongues like as of fire." When I read statements like these I understand them to be quite different from divided tongues of fire or cloven tongues of fire.

The first rendering seems to suggest the tongues were similar in appearance to fire but not necessarily actual fire.

 

[chessman]

What is the chaff this parabolic reference is referring to, that will be burned up?

I answered this already:

furthermore, we know that no actual inextinguishable fire was there that day because they (the wheat) were not gathered into the barn that day nor was the wheat's chaff (the outer covering of the wheat grain) burned up that day.

The wheat = people baptized with/in the Holy Spirit

The wheat’s chaff = the outer covering of the wheat grain = people’s worldly, mortal bodies.

It’s what Jesus taught His apostles:

Truly, truly I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains by itself alone. But if it dies, it bears much fruit.​

John 12:24 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 12:24&version=LEB

And if your eye should be causing you to fall, throw it out. It is better that you enter into the kingdom of God one-eyed than be thrown into Gehenna having two eyes— where their worm does not come-to-an-end, and the fire is not quenched. For everyone will be salted with fire. “Salt is good. But if the salt should become unsalty, with what will you season it? Be having salt in yourselves, and be living-in-peace with one another”.​

Mark 9:47-50 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Mark 9:47-50&version=DLNT

​

And what you sow is not the body which it will become, but you sow the bare seed, whether perhaps of wheat or of some of the rest. But God gives to it a body just as he wishes, and to each one of the seeds its own body. Not all flesh is the same, but there is one flesh of human beings, and another flesh of animals, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish, and heavenly bodies and earthly bodies. But the glory of the heavenly bodies is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly bodies is of another kind.​

1 Corinthians 15:37-40 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Corinthians 15:37-40&version=LEB

 

[Senior]

You're right, I mis-spoke.
The Holy Spirit came both INSIDE and UPON in this particular case.

Okay, I need to clarify once again!
Believe it or not ...

The Holy Spirit comes INSIDE a person when he/she initially receives the Spirit and becomes a new creation in Christ.
In this initial instance, the person is NOT filled with the Spirit.

However, being "filled with the Spirit" refers ONLY to the baptism with the Holy Spirit when He comes UPON a person.

Again, I promise you, sometimes a person receives both simultaneously.

 

[Senior]

The first rendering seems to suggest the tongues were similar in appearance to fire but not necessarily actual fire.

Any rendering I've seen just sounds like it looked like fire.
P.S. The Lord God can make anything look like anything.
E.G. He can make you look like a toadstool, if he so desired.

 

[WIP]

Any rendering I've seen just sounds like it looked like fire.
P.S. The Lord God can make anything look like anything.
E.G. He can make you look like a toadstool, if he so desired.

To look like fire and to actually be fire are two different things. The renderings that JLB quoted here, say it both ways. The question then is, which is correct?

 

[JLB]

I don't know, JLB, but the NKJV which you quoted renders it "divided tongues as of fire." The KJV renders it "cloven tongues like as of fire." When I read statements like these I understand them to be quite different from divided tongues of fire or cloven tongues of fire.

The first rendering seems to suggest the tongues were similar in appearance to fire but not necessarily actual fire.

By saying actual fire, do you mean physical fire that burns?

If you do, I agree that it was not actual physical fire that burns in this natural world.


I believe the passage refers to something more that physical fire that burns thing in the natural world.

I see this as spiritual fire that these folks had probably never seen before, so Luke used the best wording he could to describe what was witnessed.


The word “appeared” stands out to me in this passage.

This “fire” appeared to these witnesses from the spiritual realm as fire.


So what is it that “appeared” to these folks in the upper room?



JLB

 

[JLB]

I answered this already:


The wheat = people baptized with/in the Holy Spirit

The wheat’s chaff = the outer covering of the wheat grain = people’s worldly, mortal bodies.

It’s what Jesus taught His apostles:

Truly, truly I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains by itself alone. But if it dies, it bears much fruit.​

John 12:24 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 12:24&version=LEB

And if your eye should be causing you to fall, throw it out. It is better that you enter into the kingdom of God one-eyed than be thrown into Gehenna having two eyes— where their worm does not come-to-an-end, and the fire is not quenched. For everyone will be salted with fire. “Salt is good. But if the salt should become unsalty, with what will you season it? Be having salt in yourselves, and be living-in-peace with one another”.​

Mark 9:47-50 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Mark 9:47-50&version=DLNT

​

And what you sow is not the body which it will become, but you sow the bare seed, whether perhaps of wheat or of some of the rest. But God gives to it a body just as he wishes, and to each one of the seeds its own body. Not all flesh is the same, but there is one flesh of human beings, and another flesh of animals, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish, and heavenly bodies and earthly bodies. But the glory of the heavenly bodies is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly bodies is of another kind.​

1 Corinthians 15:37-40 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Corinthians 15:37-40&version=LEB

So from your answers, Am I to gather that you don’t believe the day of Pentecost was the prophesied baptism with the Holy Spirit and Fire?


JLB

 

[WIP]

So what is it that “appeared” to these folks in the upper room?

Something like as tongues of fire. I'm not trying to be smart. Just accepting what is written in the Scriptures.

 

[JLB]

Something like as tongues of fire. I'm not trying to be smart. Just accepting what is written in the Scriptures.

I’m also accepting what is in the scriptures.

I believe the day of Pentecost was the foretold baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire.


How about you?



JLB

 

[ezra]

So what is it that “appeared” to these folks in the upper room?

spiritual fire the refiners fire

 

[ezra]

Okay, I need to clarify once again!
Believe it or not ...

The Holy Spirit comes INSIDE a person when he/she initially receives the Spirit and becomes a new creation in Christ.
In this initial instance, the person is NOT filled with the Spirit.

However, being "filled with the Spirit" refers ONLY to the baptism with the Holy Spirit when He comes UPON a person.

Again, I promise you, sometimes a person receives both simultaneously.

i can meet you part way the infilling of the spirit is a ongoing process . if one was so full to the brim of the spirit there would be no room for the flesh .this process in called sanctification/ being made holy which is on going . i sometimes think men takes the book of acts and recreate it.. there was only one Pentecost ( not a denom) we experience the fruit of it today a fruit is the result of being connected to the true vine . i have been in services where people run into the wall and call it a holy ghost experiencing

 

[JLB]

To look like fire and to actually be fire are two different things. The renderings that JLB quoted here, say it both ways. The question then is, which is correct?

The question is what appeared to them?

Answer: Tongues of fire


JLB

 

[WIP]

The question is what appeared to them?

Answer: Tongues of fire


JLB

Or something that looked like tongues of fire. It appears the translators were not absolutely certain so we have differing translations.

Here's how I think of it. Suppose I saw a ghost. How would I describe it to someone else? I could say it looked like a cloud or it looked like a fog. Was it a cloud? Was it a fog? Was it something else? I can only describe it using terminology that I understand.

 

[JLB]

Or something that looked like tongues of fire. It appears the translators were not absolutely certain so we have differing translations.

Do you believe based on this we can say with all certainty that the baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire did not take place on the day of Pentecost?


Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Acts 2:3-4



JLB

 

[WIP]

Do you believe based on this we can say with all certainty that the baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire did not take place on the day of Pentecost?


Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Acts 2:3-4



JLB

I believe with no doubt they were baptized with the Holy Spirit but I'm not certain about the baptism with fire.

 

[chessman]

I believe with no doubt they were baptized with the Holy Spirit but I'm not certain about the baptism with fire.

If there’s any doubt about them being baptized with/in fire, simply ask yourself; Were they burned up?

The baptism with/in fire burns

I baptize you with water for repentance, but the one who comes after me is more powerful than I am, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing shovel is in his hand, and he will clean out his threshing floor and will gather his wheat into the storehouse, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”​

Matthew 3:11-12 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 3:11-12&version=LEB

John answered them all, saying, “I baptize you with water, but the one who is more powerful than I am is coming, of whom I am not worthy to untie the strap of his sandals. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing shovel is in his hand, to clean out his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his storehouse, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”​

Luke 3:16-17 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 3:16-17&version=LEB

He will baptize you with fire = He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. Simply two different ways of saying the same thing.