A quick look at the 4 Christian baptisms

[WIP]

If there’s any doubt about them being baptized with/in fire, simply ask yourself; Were they burned up?

The baptism with/in fire burns

I baptize you with water for repentance, but the one who comes after me is more powerful than I am, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing shovel is in his hand, and he will clean out his threshing floor and will gather his wheat into the storehouse, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”​

Matthew 3:11-12 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 3:11-12&version=LEB

John answered them all, saying, “I baptize you with water, but the one who is more powerful than I am is coming, of whom I am not worthy to untie the strap of his sandals. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing shovel is in his hand, to clean out his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his storehouse, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”​

Luke 3:16-17 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 3:16-17&version=LEB

He will baptize you with fire = He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. Simply two different ways of saying the same thing.

The chaff is burned up with unquenchable fire. Chaff is waste material. I'm not seeing your connection to the disciples who received the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

 

[JLB]

I believe with no doubt they were baptized with the Holy Spirit but I'm not certain about the baptism with fire.

I specifically asking about John the Baptist foretelling this word to the people of his day -


I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. Matthew 3:11


Doesn’t it make sense that this occurred on the day of Pentecost?


That the tongues of what seemed to be fire that came to rest upon them, was indeed the fulfillment of John’s word?


If not on the Day of Pentecost then where in scripture?



JLB

 

[WIP]

In Matthew 3:1-12 it seems John was addressing the Pharisees and Saducees when he made that prophecy regarding the baptism of fire but it was Jesus' disciples in which what looked like tongues of fire rested upon.

In Mark 1:1-8 it seems John was addressing "all the land of Judea and those from Jerusalem" (NKJV) and in this account only the baptism of the Holy Spirit was mentioned.

In Luke 3:7-9 it says John was addressing the multitudes that came referring to them as a brood of vipers (NKJV). This account again includes baptism with fire.

In John's gospel there's no mention of the baptism of either the Holy Spirit or with fire.

Looking at these texts, I see a correlation between John's attitude and the baptism with fire as if to suggest that the baptism with fire might be reserved for others besides believers. Is this possible?

 

[chessman]

Chaff is waste material.

It’s literally the husk or outer covering of the wheat grain/fruit. They would use it for kindling a fire.

I'm not seeing your connection to the disciples who received the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Reading the context of John the Baptist’s sermon from Isaiah 40 helps. Here’s the last verse he quoted just before mentioning being baptized with fire:

And all flesh will see the salvation of God’”.​

Luke 3:6 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 3:6&version=DLNT

You’ve been indwelt with the Holy Spirit, right, just like the people that day were. You are thus one of His wheat grains (His wheat). But you’re still growing and you’ve still got your outer covering (your flesh). One day, He’ll sift you and gather you (the grain) into His barn. But for now, His winnowing fork is in His hand. When you’re threshed, you’ lose your flesh like chaff falling of a wheat grain.

What part of you will not make it into His barn? Your earthly flesh, right?

 

[JLB]

If there’s any doubt about them being baptized with/in fire, simply ask yourself; Were they burned up?

The baptism with/in fire burns

I baptize you with water for repentance, but the one who comes after me is more powerful than I am, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing shovel is in his hand, and he will clean out his threshing floor and will gather his wheat into the storehouse, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”​

Matthew 3:11-12 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 3:11-12&version=LEB

John answered them all, saying, “I baptize you with water, but the one who is more powerful than I am is coming, of whom I am not worthy to untie the strap of his sandals. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing shovel is in his hand, to clean out his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his storehouse, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”​

Luke 3:16-17 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 3:16-17&version=LEB

He will baptize you with fire = He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. Simply two different ways of saying the same thing.

Can you provide any scripture where Jesus burned up the physical bodies of His people with fire ?



JLB

 

[WIP]

It’s literally the husk or outer covering of the wheat grain/fruit. They would use it for kindling a fire.


Reading the context of John the Baptist’s sermon from Isaiah 40 helps. Here’s the last verse he quoted just before mentioning being baptized with fire:

And all flesh will see the salvation of God’”.​

Luke 3:6 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 3:6&version=DLNT

You’ve been indwelt with the Holy Spirit, right, just like the people that day were. You are thus one of His wheat grains (His wheat). But you’re still growing and you’ve still got your outer covering (your flesh). One day, He’ll sift you and gather you (the grain) into His barn. But for now, His winnowing fork is in His hand. When you’re threshed, you’ lose your flesh like chaff falling of a wheat grain.

What part of you will not make it into His barn? Your earthly flesh, right?

Ah! That helps.

 

[JLB]

Looking at these texts, I see a correlation between John's attitude and the baptism with fire as if to suggest that the baptism with fire might be reserved for others besides believers. Is this possible?

I don’t see any reference to a baptism of fire.

I only see a reference to the baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire, in which the fire is an aspect of the Holy Spirit.

• “He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire”

Again I made reference to this in an earlier post.


Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
1 Corinthians 10:1-2


Here we see the three baptisms foreshadowed from the Old Testament, and mentioned by Paul.


Notice the cloud.


The cloud represents the baptism with the Holy Spirit.


The cloud, however was a cloud by day and a fire by night.

Never the less, the Holy Spirit through Paul says...

• all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,

 

[JLB]

One day, He’ll sift you and gather you (the grain) into His barn. But for now, His winnowing fork is in His hand. When you’re threshed, you’ lose your flesh like chaff falling of a wheat grain.

Where’s the fire in this explanation?



JLB

 

[JLB]

You’ve been indwelt with the Holy Spirit, right, just like the people that day were.

If you have had the same pattern of experience they did when they received the baptism with the Holy Spirit.



JLB

 

[chessman]

Can you provide any scripture where Jesus burned up the physical bodies of His people with fire ?



JLB

No, that’s the point. The Baptism with fire hasn’t occurred yet, except for the risen Christ’s body. They were filled (inside) with the Holy Spirit. Indwelt, reborn Spiritually, not transformed bodily (outwardly) yet. But it will happen! Just as the type/shadow of the exodus predicted; we must first be born again (by the indwelling/washing/baptism) of the Holy Spirit then later our bodies are transformed into something similar to His glorious body. Not to mention He exampled it Himself. Was He baptized by John years before His body died and rose glorified or did they occur on the same day???

For our place-of-citizenship is in the heavens [being Spiritually reborn], from where also we are eagerly-awaiting the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, Who will [not has but will and not might either] transform the body of our lowliness so as to be similar-in-form to the body of His glory, according-to the working that enables Him also to subject all things to Himself.​

Philippians 3:20-21 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Philippians 3:20-21&version=DLNT

What is the working that enables Him to subject all things to Himself, even our lawless bodies??? You guessed it:

Whose winnowing-tool is in His hand, and He will cleanse-out His threshing floor and gather His wheat into the barn. But He will burn up the chaff with an inextinguishable fire”.​

Matthew 3:12 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 3:12&version=DLNT

BTW, Did Israel pass through the sea and follow the cloud of fire on the same day? Or did the passing through the sea come first and the cloud of fire later?

And after six days, Jesus takes-along Peter and James and John his brother, and brings them up on a high mountain privately. And He was transfigured in front of them. And His face shined like the sun, and His garments became white as the light.​

Matthew 17:1-2 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 17:1-2&version=DLNT

 

[JLB]

No, that’s the point. The Baptism with fire hasn’t occurred yet,

That’s the point I wanted everyone here to see, that you were making.


I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Matthew 3:11


So what your teaching is, John’s words never came to pass, not even on the Day of Pentecost -


Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Acts 2:3-4

• as of fire, and one sat upon each of them.

What is it, that sat on top of each of them?




JLB

 

[JLB]

Indwelt, reborn Spiritually, not transformed bodily (outwardly) yet. But it will happen!

Where is the fire in your teaching?

Is it imaginary, or invisible, or symbolic?


What your teaching about is the resurrection of the dead in Christ, not the baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire.



JLB

 

[JLB]

No, that’s the point. The Baptism with fire hasn’t occurred yet, except for the risen Christ’s body. They were filled (inside) with the Holy Spirit. Indwelt, reborn Spiritually, not transformed bodily (outwardly) yet. But it will happen! Just as the type/shadow of the exodus predicted; we must first be born again (by the indwelling/washing/baptism) of the Holy Spirit then later our bodies are transformed into something similar to His glorious body. Not to mention He exampled it Himself. Was He baptized by John years before His body died and rose glorified or did they occur on the same day???

For our place-of-citizenship is in the heavens [being Spiritually reborn], from where also we are eagerly-awaiting the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, Who will [not has but will and not might either] transform the body of our lowliness so as to be similar-in-form to the body of His glory, according-to the working that enables Him also to subject all things to Himself.​

Philippians 3:20-21 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Philippians 3:20-21&version=DLNT

What is the working that enables Him to subject all things to Himself, even our lawless bodies??? You guessed it:

Whose winnowing-tool is in His hand, and He will cleanse-out His threshing floor and gather His wheat into the barn. But He will burn up the chaff with an inextinguishable fire”.​

Matthew 3:12 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 3:12&version=DLNT

BTW, Did Israel pass through the sea and follow the cloud of fire on the same day? Or did the passing through the sea come first and the cloud of fire later?

And after six days, Jesus takes-along Peter and James and John his brother, and brings them up on a high mountain privately. And He was transfigured in front of them. And His face shined like the sun, and His garments became white as the light.​

Matthew 17:1-2 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 17:1-2&version=DLNT

So you are teaching us then, that the baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire is when Jesus burns up the physical bodies (chaff) of His people?


Can you please provide some scriptures that teach us Jesus intends to burn off our physical bodies with fire?


At the resurrection and rapture we will all have transformed bodies like Jesus, at His coming.


But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 1 Corinthians 15:20-23



And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain. But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.
All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.
There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 1 Corinthians 15:37-44



Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Corinthians 15:51-53




JLB

 

[chessman]

So you are teaching us then, that the baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire is when Jesus burns up the physical bodies (chaff) of His people?

No. As I said previously, there’s nothing in the Text about a single baptism called the baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire. Your assumption that it’s one baptism occuring on Pentecost Day isn’t convincing because of the following facts:
1. The was no fire even there that day.
2. Nothing was burned up that day as John The Baptist’s prophecy say will occur.
3. Your body has yet to be transformed into something like His glorified body.

Can you please provide some scriptures that teach us Jesus intends to burn off our physical bodies with fire?

Sure, but it will be the last time I’ll do it for you in this thread.

Whose winnowing-tool is in His hand, and He will cleanse-out His threshing floor and gather His wheat into the barn. But He will burn up the chaff with an inextinguishable fire”.​

Matthew 3:12 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 3:12&version=DLNT

And as to what you sow— you do not sow the body which will come, but a bare seed, perhaps of wheat or of some of the rest.​

1 Corinthians 15:37 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Corinthians 15:37&version=DLNT

Now, can you please provide us with Scripture that indicates to you what it was that was burned up like chaff on the day of Pentecost?

 

[JLB]

The was no fire even there that day.

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Matthew 3:11


Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Acts 2:3-4

• as of fire, and one sat upon each of them.

What is it, that sat on top of each of them?




JLB

 

[JLB]

Sure, but it will be the last time I’ll do it for you in this thread.

Whose winnowing-tool is in His hand, and He will cleanse-out His threshing floor and gather His wheat into the barn. But He will burn up the chaff with an inextinguishable fire”.Matthew 3:12 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 3:12&version=DLNT

Nothing here about Jesus burning up our physical body with fire.



JLB

 

[JLB]

And as to what you sow— you do not sow the body which will come, but a bare seed, perhaps of wheat or of some of the rest.1 Corinthians 15:37 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Corinthians 15:37&version=DLNT

There no fire mentioned here either.


Nothing about our physical bodies being burned up by Jesus with fire.


The passage you quote is about the resurrection of the dead in Christ.


But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?” Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain. But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.
All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.
There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
So also is the resurrection of the dead. 1 Corinthians 15:35-42


Jesus does not burn up our physical bodies with fire.


There is no mention of this anywhere in scripture.




JLB

 

[JLB]

Now, can you please provide us with Scripture that indicates to you what it was that was burned up like chaff on the day of Pentecost?

I never said the burning up like chaff happened on the day of Pentecost.


JLB

 

[chessman]

I never said the burning up like chaff happened on the day of Pentecost.

I know, but John the Baptist did. Thus the problem. You simply keep cutting off the prophecy’s explanation provided to you by John the Baptist. Nothing got burned up that day at Pentecost. Thus, no baptism with fire occurred.

BTW, it’s not Him burning bodies up like chaff, it says He WILL burn up the chaff, right after describing us as His wheat.

 

[chessman]

The passage you quote is about the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

It includes an explanation that our dead bodies are specifically said to be wheat in the passage.

And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain.

Jesus does not burn up our physical bodies with fire.

There is no mention of this anywhere in scripture.

In Scripture our earthly bodies are said to be wheat and then His wheat grain is separated from its chaff and then the wheat chaff is burned up by fire.