A quick look at the 4 Christian baptisms

[JLB]

Tell that to Irenaeus

Nowhere does Scripture say that baptism with fire occurred on the day of Pentecost. You’re stretching.

I have never said, nor taught that the baptism of fire ever occurred on Pentecost, as a seperated baptism.


I teach and believe, that it the Baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire.


Not just the Baptism of fire.



JLB

 

[JLB]

For the day of the Lord cometh as a burning furnace, and all sinners shall be stubble, they who do evil things, and the day shall burn them up."

Yes most definitely the Lord will destroy sinners and the evil with fire.


This of course is not sinners and evil people receiving the baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Unlike you, he doesn’t cut John’s prophecy in half without including it’s interpretation. That is, burning up the chaff. Which BTW could have been settled a long time ago if you would have chosen to simply answer; What got burned up that day? But oh well, que sera sera.

The baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire, is one baptism, that was referred to by Jesus as the baptism with the Holy Spirit, as well as the baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire, by John the Baptist.


Jesus -

And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”
Acts 1:4-5



John -

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. Matthew 3:11



Can you see that both John the Baptist and Jesus were referring to the same event?

• I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but
• for John truly baptized with water, but

JLB

 

[chessman]

Can you see that both John the Baptist and Jesus were referring to the same event?

No, quite obviously baptism with fire and baptism with the Holy Spirit are two events because Jesus didn’t tell them they’d be baptized with the Holy Spirit and fire in not many days. If He would have said you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit and fire in not many days, you’d have a point. But He didn’t say that. He said they’d be baptized with the Holy Spirit in a few days, not with fire also. And again, the Holy Spirit was actually there at Pentecost. And sound was there. And tongues “like fire” was there, not actual fire.

For John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit ____ not many days from now.”​

Acts 1:5 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Acts 1:5&version=LEB

So is it your view that Jesus just forgot to fill in the blank with fire in the above quote?

What got burned up on the day of Pentecost?

 

[JLB]

No, quite obviously baptism with fire and baptism with the Holy Spirit are two events

Since no scripture says “baptism with fire”, but only refers to the baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire, I would have to disagree with you.


Please post a scripture that refers to the “baptism of fire”.



JLB

 

[JLB]

If He would have said you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit and fire in not many days, you’d have a point. But He didn’t say that. He said they’d be baptized with the Holy Spirit in a few days, not with fire also. And again, the Holy Spirit was actually there at Pentecost. And sound was there. And tongues “like fire” was there, not actual fire.

Both Jesus and John refered to the baptism Jesus was going to administer as being different than John’s baptism and both indicated this baptism involved the Holy Spirit.


How do you see the events of the day of Pentecost differing from the baptism John refered to and the baptism Jesus refered to?



JLB

 

[JLB]

So is it your view that Jesus just forgot to fill in the blank with fire in the above quote?

No, Jesus refered to the same baptism as John.


The baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire, is one baptism, that was referred to by Jesus as the baptism with the Holy Spirit, as well as the baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire, by John the Baptist.


Jesus -

And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”
Acts 1:4-5



John -

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. Matthew 3:11



Can you see that both John the Baptist and Jesus were referring to the same event?

• I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but
• for John truly baptized with water, but

JLB

 

[JLB]

What got burned up on the day of Pentecost?

Things in their soul, that needed cleansing and purging.


Are these things visible?

Maybe not, but the effect these things have on a person can be distinguished.


We certainly know Peter was different.


Before, he denied Jesus three times when questioned by a little girl.

After the baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire, he stood boldly against those very ones who murdered Christ with powerful preaching of the Gospel.


Seemed like Peter had some fire, that he didn’t have before.



JLB

 

[chessman]

Please post a scripture that refers to the “baptism of fire”.

I have. But here’s another. It occurs on the Day of the Lord’s return.

What got burned up on the day of Pentecost?

On that day the branch of Yahweh shall become beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the land shall become the pride and glory of the survivors of Israel. And this shall happen: He who is left in Zion and he who remains in Jerusalem will be called holy, everyone written for life in Jerusalem, when the Lord has washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the blood of Jerusalem from her midst by a spirit of judgment and by a spirit of burning.​

Isaiah 4:2-4 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Isaiah 4:2-4&version=LEB

The bolded word in these Hebrew passages is the same word John used in Greek (Baptiso) at the Jordan while baptizing/washing/plunging Jesus.

So he went down and plunged into the Jordan seven times, according to the word of the man of God, and his flesh returned as the flesh of a small boy, and he was clean.​

2 Kings 5:14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Kings 5:14&version=LEB

But as you can see, on the Day of the Lord’s return it will be a Spirit of burning that washed/baptized the daughters of Zion.

Since no scripture says “baptism with fire”, but only refers to the baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire, I would have to disagree with you.

Again, I have given you Scripture that says we are His wheat and that His wheat’s chaff gets burned up. John said so too.

What got burned up on the day of Pentecost?

 

[JLB]

On that day the branch of Yahweh shall become beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the land shall become the pride and glory of the survivors of Israel. And this shall happen: He who is left in Zion and he who remains in Jerusalem will be called holy, everyone written for life in Jerusalem, when the Lord has washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the blood of Jerusalem from her midst by a spirit of judgment and by a spirit of burning.

This of course doesn’t refer to your claim of Jesus burning up the physical bodies of His people when He baptises them with the Holy Spirit and fire.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Again, I have given you Scripture that says we are His wheat and that His wheat’s chaff gets burned up. John said so too.

I agree we are referred to as wheat in the parable of the wheat and tares.


What I have specifically asked you for is where it says Jesus burns up the physical bodies of His people when He baptises them with the Holy Spirit and fire?


We know He transforms our physical bodies at the resurrection and rapture, but nothing in scripture says He does this by burning up our physical bodies with fire.


We know He destroys the earth and the works in it, on the Day of the Lord, by burning it up.


We know he destroys the wicked at His coming, but this is not done by baptizing them with the Holy Spirit and fire.


I’m sorry Chessman, I just find anywhere in scripture where Jesus burns up the physical bodies of His people at the baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire.



JLB

 

[JLB]

What got burned up on the day of Pentecost?

This is a repost of post # 108.

The answer to what got burned up on the day of Pentecost -


Things in their soul, that needed cleansing and purging.


Are these things visible?

Maybe not, but the effect these things have on a person can be distinguished.


We certainly know Peter was different.


Before, he denied Jesus three times when questioned by a little girl.

After the baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire, he stood boldly against those very ones who murdered Christ with powerful preaching of the Gospel.


Seemed like Peter had some fire, that he didn’t have before.



JLB

 

[chessman]

This of course doesn’t refer to your claim of Jesus burning up the physical bodies of His people when He baptises them with the Holy Spirit and fire.

That’s funny. John the Baptist was preaching repentance using Isaiah’s prophecy as a witness.

We know He transforms our physical bodies at the resurrection and rapture, but nothing in scripture says He does this by burning up our physical bodies with fire.

Again, we are His wheat and He will burn up the wheat chaff.

you who do not know what will happen tomorrow, what your life will be like . For you are a smoky vapor that appears for a short time and then disappears.​

James 4:14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=James 4:14&version=LEB

Are these things visible?

His body didn’t visibly change that day, but it will at His second coming when He threshes His wheat and burns up the chaff.

The answer to what got burned up on the day of Pentecost -


Things in their soul, that needed cleansing and purging.

Purified is the Biblical word actually, but what of the things in their flesh that needed cleansing and purging? That’s the refiner’s fire to come on the Day of the Lord! Baptism of the Holy Spirit doesn’t actually clean the flesh, only the soul.

And also, corresponding to this, baptism now saves you, not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,​

1 Peter 3:21 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Peter 3:21&version=LEB

We certainly know Peter was different.

Yes he was changed on the inside by God that day. Reborn from above. And his mind was being changed after that day but not his body (which was still mortal). That’s a change yet to come when the Lord returns to thresh His wheat and burn up the chaff (which is the outer covering of the wheat).

[Christ] who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.​

Philippians 3:21 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Philippians 3:21&version=NKJV

After the baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire, he stood boldly against those very ones who murdered Christ with powerful preaching of the Gospel.

After baptism with the Holy Spirit, he stood boldly against those very ones who murdered Christ with powerful preaching of the Gospel though not being able to see Christ because Christ had not yet returned to gather His wheat and burn up the chaff as John the Baptist predicted.

Not only was there no wheat chaff burnt up at Pentecost, Peter (one of His wheat) wasn’t gathered into His barn that day either.

John responded, saying to everyone, “ I am baptizing you with water, but the One more powerful than me is coming, of Whom I am not fit to untie the strap of His sandals. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire — Whose winnowing-tool is in His hand so as to clean-out His threshing floor and gather the wheat into His barn; but He will burn up the chaff with an inextinguishable fire”.​

Luke 3:16-17 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 3:16-17&version=DLNT

Oh, BTW, John said the one more powerful than me is coming. Hadn’t Jesus already come the first time when John prophecies His coming?

 

[JLB]

That’s funny. John the Baptist was preaching repentance using Isaiah’s prophecy as a witness.

Your the one who claims the Baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire is when Jesus burns up our bodies.


The only problem is you have no scripture to back up your claim.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Again, we are His wheat and He will burn up the wheat chaff.

you who do not know what will happen tomorrow, what your life will be like . For you are a smoky vapor that appears for a short time and then disappears.James 4:14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=James 4:14&version=LEB

Great we are as wheat.

I think I have acknowledged this, when I referred to the parable of the wheat and tares.


Let’s look at it more closely to see who gets burned in the fire.

He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. Matthew 13:37-40


Again, I agree that the wicked are destroyed in fire.


This is not the baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire.



JLB

 

[JLB]

That’s funny. John the Baptist was preaching repentance using Isaiah’s prophecy as a witness.


Again, we are His wheat and He will burn up the wheat chaff.

you who do not know what will happen tomorrow, what your life will be like . For you are a smoky vapor that appears for a short time and then disappears.​

James 4:14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=James 4:14&version=LEB


His body didn’t visibly change that day, but it will at His second coming when He threshes His wheat and burns up the chaff.



Purified is the Biblical word actually, but what of the things in their flesh that needed cleansing and purging? That’s the refiner’s fire to come on the Day of the Lord! Baptism of the Holy Spirit doesn’t actually clean the flesh, only the soul.

And also, corresponding to this, baptism now saves you, not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,​

1 Peter 3:21 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Peter 3:21&version=LEB


Yes he was changed on the inside by God that day. Reborn from above. And his mind was being changed after that day but not his body (which was still mortal). That’s a change yet to come when the Lord returns to thresh His wheat and burn up the chaff (which is the outer covering of the wheat).

[Christ] who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.​

Philippians 3:21 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Philippians 3:21&version=NKJV




After baptism with the Holy Spirit, he stood boldly against those very ones who murdered Christ with powerful preaching of the Gospel though not being able to see Christ because Christ had not yet returned to gather His wheat and burn up the chaff as John the Baptist predicted.

Not only was there no wheat chaff burnt up at Pentecost, Peter (one of His wheat) wasn’t gathered into His barn that day either.

John responded, saying to everyone, “ I am baptizing you with water, but the One more powerful than me is coming, of Whom I am not fit to untie the strap of His sandals. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire — Whose winnowing-tool is in His hand so as to clean-out His threshing floor and gather the wheat into His barn; but He will burn up the chaff with an inextinguishable fire”.​

Luke 3:16-17 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 3:16-17&version=DLNT

Oh, BTW, John said the one more powerful than me is coming. Hadn’t Jesus already come the first time when John prophecies His coming?

Go ahead and quote the scripture you are referring to so we can examine the content and context.


JLB

 

[chessman]

I think I have acknowledged this, when I referred to the parable of the wheat and tares.

Tares are not chaff.

 

[JLB]

Tares are not chaff.

It’s just another teaching showing about fire and who gets burned up.

What I have specifically asked you for is where it says Jesus burns up the physical bodies of His people when He baptises them with the Holy Spirit and fire?


We know He transforms our physical bodies at the resurrection and rapture, but nothing in scripture says He does this by burning up our physical bodies with fire.


We know He destroys the earth and the works in it, on the Day of the Lord, by burning it up.


We know he destroys the wicked at His coming, but this is not done by baptizing them with the Holy Spirit and fire.


I’m sorry Chessman, I just find anywhere in scripture where Jesus burns up the physical bodies of His people at the baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire.



JLB

 

[chessman]

Go ahead and quote the scripture you are referring to so we can examine the content and context.

I did, you’re not addressing it:

John responded, saying to everyone, “ I am baptizing you with water, but the One more powerful than me is coming, of Whom I am not fit to untie the strap of His sandals. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire — Whose winnowing-tool is in His hand so as to clean-out His threshing floor and gather the wheat into His barn; but He will burn up the chaff with an inextinguishable fire”.Luke 3:16-17 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 3:16-17&version=DLNT

His prophecy is that the One coming (not the One who has come already but “is coming”) will demonstrate His power by cleaning out the threshing floor, gathering the wheat into His barn and burning up the chaff with in extinguishable fire. This IS the baptism with fire, when He comes again. As I’ve already shown was the teaching of the early church Father Irenaeus.

If your theroy were true and John was prophesying one cleansing not two on the day of Pentecost, then why did He say Jesus “is coming” versus ‘has come’?

And why was Peter not gathered at Pentecost?

 

[JLB]

I did, you’re not addressing it:

I have addressed every thing you have posted.


I asked you to post the scripture that says Jesus will burn up our physical bodies.

You have yet to do that.


You have posted scripture about the wicked being burned which is His wrath.


You have posted scriptures about the earth and the works in it being burned up.


You have not shown us where Jesus will burn up the physical bodies of the saints.


I’m not going to address this again, unless you have a scripture that specifically teaches us that Jesus intends to burn up our physical bodies, which is Him baptizing is with the Holy Spirit and fire.


The baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire began on the day of Pentecost and continues to this day, for all who obey Him.


And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.” Acts 5:32



JLB