Abomination that causes Desolation

[JLB]

Jesus said this generation

Jesus said "these signs".

Why would "this generation" mean 70 AD, if the signs He listed never occurred then, and the Resurrection never happened, then?


JLB

 

[JohnDB]

"This generation" is a reference to the generation that will see the signs He gave, using the fig tree and it's blossoms as an example of seeing "these things" He just got through describing.

32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near.33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away. Matthew 24:32-35



9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Do you believe the end came in 66 AD or 70 AD?


15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.

26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Matthew 24:9-32


Do you believe Jesus Christ has come and the Resurrection is past?


“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Matthew 24:29


Do you believe "these signs" happened in 70 AD ?



JLB

I've explained that already...
And it was a "yes" and a "no".

 

[markathome]

The questions they asked Jesus was of 3 parts, which was answered in 3 parts
Tell us,
Question

1. when shall these things be? (There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.)
2. and what shall be the sign of thy coming?
3. and of the end of the world?

answered to question 1
Matthew 24:34
amen, verily~amen to say/to speak/to teach~lego you~humin
this/these~houtos age, generation, nation, time~genea
not at all/~ou arrive/to go past/perish~parerchomai
until~heos
whatsoever/whosoever~an individually/collectively~pas
these things~tauta to become/to arise/to be made~ginomai

 

[Douglas Summers]

Something like this?

Daniel 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

Exactly like that.

 

[for_his_glory]

Abomination means evil. Evil has always caused desolation as the evil one has always worked through those he controls to persecute even to death the prophets, Jesus (he thought so), Apostles and the saints of God and will continue to do so as the evil one made a proclamation in Isaiah 14:12-14 that he will be like God and sit on the mount of the congregation on the sides of the North. The evil one will be working through the beast out of the sea and the beast out of the earth as the son of perdition will revealed in the end of days and cause a great falling away before the return of Christ, 2Thessalonoans 2:3; Rev 13. During the time of a greater tribulation (Gods final wrath on those who refuse to repent) that has never been seen on such a larger scale before nor ever will be seen again, Matthew 24:21, Jesus will then make an end to all sin (abominations that cause desolation) as He cast the evil one into the lake of fire with the beast and the false prophet.

 

[markathome]

Where is all this confusion coming from?
If I ask a question about
1) When is the temple building going to be destroyed you just spoke about
2) What shall be the signs of your coming?
3) What shall be the signs of the end of the world?

and if I get the answer in Matthew 24, which makes perfect sense
but if I don't like the answer I just received then........




BTW Abomination has to do with idolatry
946
1 Original Word: βδέλυγμα
2 Word Origin: from (948)
3 Transliterated Word: bdelugma
4 TDNT/TWOT Entry: 1:598,103
5 Phonetic Spelling: bdel'-oog-mah
6 Part of Speech: Noun Neuter
7 Strong's Definition: from [948;]948; a detestation, i.e. (specially) idolatry:--abomination.
8 Definition:

1. a foul thing, a detestable thing
   1. of idols and things pertaining to idolatry

9 English: idolatry/abomination

 

[for_his_glory]

Jesus said this generation

I believe the words "this generation" in Matthew 24:34 means all generations until the end of days. When you read the whole of chapter 24 Jesus is answering three questions the disciples ask Him in vs.3. Jesus tells them of the signs to watch for as this generational line will not pass away until all things be fulfilled during the time of Gods great wrath during the seven trumpet and seven vial judgments and we are to stand in the holy place, which is our faith and trust in Christ, and have patience and endure until the end as no one, not even the angels or Christ himself, but only the Father knows when Jesus will return.

 

[reba]

Jesus said "these signs".

Why would "this generation" mean 70 AD, if the signs He listed never occurred then, and the Resurrection never happened, then?


JLB

Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

This passage does not speak of the resurrection

 

[reba]

All through the OT we read warnings ... God says Ok guys you have messed up again and now here is what is going to happen
I believe what we call the Olivet Discourse is such a warning... Of the finial straw to the temple way of life... He is soon to be thee Sacrifice . The Son of God Murdered
The veil seperating the people from the Holy of Holies will be torn... by the end of 'that ' generation the complete collapse of temple life happens .. Just as God used the Romans to do the actual murder of Jesus I believe He used the romans to level the temple...

Mat 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Mat 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
Mat 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Mat 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Before someone claims a heresy on my part about the Son of God being murdered... I fully believe He gave His life . the act of His death was still murder... murder carried out by the Romans at the request of the Jewish leaders and the people freeing barbanus .... And God sent Him there ..

 

[Douglas Summers]

"This generation" is a reference to the generation that will see the signs He gave, using the fig tree and it's blossoms as an example of seeing "these things" He just got through describing.

32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near.33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away. Matthew 24:32-35



9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Do you believe the end came in 66 AD or 70 AD?

Like many of The Lord prophecies, they are dual. Matthew chapters 24 and 25 are yet future. For Matthew thru Luke and parts of John were present and future and about Israel under the "times of the Gentiles" (Luke 21:20-24). This prophecy in Luke has in view two sieges in Jerusalem. The one filled in A.D. 70 and the other yet to be filled at the end of the age (the age of the "Times of the Gentiles"). The siege of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 by Titus in verses (21:20-24) were literally fulfilled, these verses are not included in the Olivet Discourse given in Matthew and Mark. The references given in (Matt. 25:15-28) and (Mark 13:14-26) are of the final siege when taken by the Gentile nations, but delivered by the return of the Lord to the earth (Rev. 19:11-21) (Zech. 14:2-4). In Luke, the sign is the in-compassing of Jerusalem by armies (Luke 21:20) But in (Matt. 24:15) and (Mark 13:14), The sign is the abomination of desolation in the "Holy Place" (2 Thes. 2:4) and (Rev. 13:12-15).

* note
The "times of the Gentiles," began with the captivity of Judah by Nebuchadnezzar (2 Chron. 36:1-21). Since that time Jerusalem has been, as Christ said,"trodden down by the Gentiles" (Rev. 11:2) (Dt. 28:49) (Rev. 16:19) All that is prophesy here is about God's warning to Israel. This is not about Christ's Body (Church). BTW, Gentile is not just Romans or Greeks. All the Semitic tribes (other than Israel) are considered Gentile nations.

 

[for_his_glory]

Like many of The Lord prophecies, they are dual. Matthew chapters 24 and 25 are yet future. For Matthew thru Luke and parts of John were present and future and about Israel under the "times of the Gentiles" (Luke 21:20-24). This prophecy in Luke has in view two sieges in Jerusalem. The one filled in A.D. 70 and the other yet to be filled at the end of the age (the age of the "Times of the Gentiles"). The siege of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 by Titus in verses (21:20-24) were literally fulfilled, these verses are not included in the Olivet Discourse given in Matthew and Mark. The references given in (Matt. 25:15-28) and (Mark 13:14-26) are of the final siege when taken by the Gentile nations, but delivered by the return of the Lord to the earth (Rev. 19:11-21) (Zech. 14:2-4). In Luke, the sign is the in-compassing of Jerusalem by armies (Luke 21:20) But in (Matt. 24:15) and (Mark 13:14), The sign is the abomination of desolation in the "Holy Place" (2 Thes. 2:4) and (Rev. 13:12-15).

* note
The "times of the Gentiles," began with the captivity of Judah by Nebuchadnezzar (2 Chron. 36:1-21). Since that time Jerusalem has been, as Christ said,"trodden down by the Gentiles" (Rev. 11:2) (Dt. 28:49) (Rev. 16:19) All that is prophesy here is about God's warning to Israel. This is not about Christ's Body (Church). BTW, Gentile is not just Romans or Greeks. All the Semitic tribes (other than Israel) are considered Gentile nations.

This is "The time of the Gentiles" in Rev 11:1,2
This temple is not a literal temple that John is to measure as there never will be a third one built as the temple mount will never be given back to the Jews and here is the reason why. Jerusalem has been destroyed twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times all because Israel never repented of their sin of idolatry when they were allowed back into their land again in 538 BC after their seventy year Babylonian exile and the land fell under the leader of the Roman Empire that still has diplomatic ties with Jerusalem today.

When the second temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. by the Romans other Roman temples were built there and destroyed during various revolts up to the fourth century. From the fourth century the temple mount laid undeveloped until the Muslim Siege of Jerusalem in 637 CE. Between 689-691 CE the Muslims built the Dome of the Rock which stands today, but now under renovations that have to do with the prophecy of the son of perdition in 2 Thessalonians 2:2-4 and the great falling away before the return of Jesus.

John was to measure the Spiritual temple of God as being those who are truly in Christ through the Spiritual rebirth that worship Him in all truths, John 3:3-7, which make up the temple of God as being the body of Christ. The symbolic here represents God separating and protecting His people. The temple of God is no longer made by hand since the veil of the temple was torn from top to bottom, Matthew 27:50, 51; Acts 7:48-51. The temple of God is within man that has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that keeps himself undefiled before the Lord, Matthew 27:51; Mark 7:15-23; 1 Corinthians 3:16, 17.

The outer court represents that of the control the Gentiles will once again have over the Holy city as they take full control over Jerusalem and trampled it for the last three and a half years of the seven year tribulation period. The first three and a half years began with the opening of the seventh seal and the last three and a half beginning with the seventh trumpet as this explains the seven year tribulation that Jesus mentions in Matthew 24:21 as being the worst tribulation there has ever been nor will ever be again.

During this time once again the Roman Empire will take control of the temple mount in Jerusalem as a New World Order is even now being set up that will be one single world government of economic, political and religious power. They will bring back the sacrifices in the last part of the three and a half years or at the end of Daniels seventy week vision in Daniel chapter 9.

This sacrifice they make is not the sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin, but will be a sacrifice in that of persecuting Christians to death as they refuse to bow down to this Nebuchadnezzar type system. It’s like that of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego in Daniel Chapter 3 as they refused to bow down and worship the idols of Baal and God rescued them from the fire. The fulfillment of the times of the Gentile is that of the Gentiles that will not repent as they fulfill the prophecy of the beast and the false prophet that are thrown into the lake of fire with Satan at Gods final judgment.

 

[for_his_glory]

sorry that went through twice I couldn't get it deleted in time

 

[JLB]

Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

This passage does not speak of the resurrection

The "passages" you listed don't refer to the resurrection.

These do, however:

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31

and again

24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:24-27

and again

25 “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.” Luke 21:25-28


The Resurrection and the gathering of His people is associated with His coming.

These verse's speak of the Resurrection.

What no one will find in Matthew 24, Mark 13, or Luke 21, is one single reference to the events of 70 A.D.

Not One.



JLB

 

[JLB]

This prophecy in Luke has in view two sieges in Jerusalem. The one filled in A.D.

There are no references to the events of 70 AD in Luke 21, Matthew 24, or Mark 16.

Zero.

So the "dual prophecy" theory is irrelevant..


JLB

 

[JohnDB]

There are no references to the events of 70 AD in Luke 21, Matthew 24, or Mark 16.

Zero.

So the "dual prophecy" theory is irrelevant..


JLB

OK.

The Great Wall of China wasn't mentioned in the Bible either but I don't doubt it's significance.

The gospel's were written as/during, or before the seige in 66AD.
So how could they include this if if hadn't happened yet?

 

[reba]

There are no references to the events of 70 AD in Luke 21, Matthew 24, or Mark 16.

Zero.

So the "dual prophecy" theory is irrelevant..


JLB

And there is not reference to WWI or WWII so they didnt happen either.. or the crusades etc

 

[JLB]

And there is not reference to WWI or WWII so they didnt happen either.. or the crusades etc

That's correct.

Since there are no reference's to the events of 70 AD, then it would be foolish at best to build a doctrine around something Jesus didn't say, or wasn't referring to.

Kinda like preterism does.


JLB

 

[JLB]

OK.

The Great Wall of China wasn't mentioned in the Bible either but I don't doubt it's significance.

The gospel's were written as/during, or before the seige in 66AD.
So how could they include this if if hadn't happened yet?

The Great wall of China wasn't mentioned by Jesus either, however the AOD was.

Since Matthew 24 isn't about the events of 70 A.D. then why bring it up, in the discussion about the AOD.


Since this OP is about the Abomination of desolation, which was mentioned by Jesus in His Olivet Discourse, then what don't we discuss that?


JLB

 

[JohnDB]

The Great wall of China wasn't mentioned by Jesus either, however the AOD was.

Since Matthew 24 isn't about the events of 70 A.D. then why bring it up, in the discussion about the AOD.


Since this OP is about the Abomination of desolation, which was mentioned by Jesus in His Olivet Discourse, then what don't we discuss that?


JLB

Because many people believe that Jesus was referring to the events of 66-70 AD.

You may not...
But some, like me, believe that it was then and some time in the future...

All three positions... Make that four or five.

Can't keep track of them all.

 

[reba]

That's correct.

Since there are no reference's to the events of 70 AD, then it would be foolish at best to build a doctrine around something Jesus didn't say, or wasn't referring to.

Kinda like preterism does.


JLB

We are really not here posting because we are not listed the genealogies