Are Christians missing out if they don't speak in tongues?

[radorth]

When Paul says, "I will pray with my spirit, and with my understanding also," it seems clear he does not understand mentally in the first case. Can we agree on that at least?

 

[follower of Christ]

When Paul says, "I will pray with my spirit, and with my understanding also," it seems clear he does not understand mentally in the first case. Can we agree on that at least?

I dont agree that PAULS intent is that it is two different things, not in the least.
I can pray with my spirit AND with my understanding and it can be the same thing.

 

[Anth]

by Cornelius on Thu Jun 04, 2009 1:48 pm

Marvelous LOL
The ones who do not speak in tongues, says they are not missing out on something that they have never done.

Do you guys actually care what the Lord says about the benefit ?
Guess not

C

Conelius -

I did not read every post here but wanted to answer your thoughtful question. I have prayed in tongues - for years and for hundreds of hours. I attended a Fundamentalist Pentecostal Bible College in the Puget Sound region for about 6 years (and the related church for about 10). I have been through the trenches on this issue included reading much of the book that the Pastor wrote (a huge tome on this one little subject).

I have not used "the prayer language" for probably over 20 years. I am doing fine - whatever issues I have are not related to praying or not praying in "another language" but to simple obedience to God - to listening and following, etc.

I wanted you to know that there are those who did, who believed and preached the subject, but who have come out of that.

I will be honest to say that the scripture re: this subject - primarily ICor14 has some passages which really are not very clear one way or the other. I would tend to consider that there might be a bit of corruption in the text there (there are a few other places in ICor that I think is a bit corrupt as well - I don't recall specifically what that is now).

Therefore, I can kind of understand how someone who wants to support that concept can more or less work there way through ICor14 to at sort of substantiate. However, when scripture is looked at as a whole - I don't believe we really see this (likewise early historical writing is not as strong as I think it should be if there was a sort of universal prayer language). And, if you will pardon me, I really don't think we need it in our relationship with God - it begins to smack of such things as counting beads and the like.

Hopefully this is a sort of bridge between the two sides - I have at least done so - before I drew my conclusion.

Best,
In Christ,
Anth

 

[radorth]

I have not used "the prayer language" for probably over 20 years. I am doing fine - whatever issues I have are not related to praying or not praying in "another language" but to simple obedience to God - to listening and following, etc.

I wanted you to know that there are those who did, who believed and preached the subject, but who have come out of that.

I will be honest to say that the scripture re: this subject - primarily ICor14 has some passages which really are not very clear one way or the other. I would tend to consider that there might be a bit of corruption in the text there (there are a few other places in ICor that I think is a bit corrupt as well - I don't recall specifically what that is now).

Therefore, I can kind of understand how someone who wants to support that concept can more or less work there way through ICor14 to at sort of substantiate. However, when scripture is looked at as a whole - I don't believe we really see this (likewise early historical writing is not as strong as I think it should be if there was a sort of universal prayer language). And, if you will pardon me, I really don't think we need it in our relationship with God - it begins to smack of such things as counting beads and the like.

Hopefully this is a sort of bridge between the two sides - I have at least done so - before I drew my conclusion.

Best,
In Christ,
Anth

An outstanding post. Anth, you speak with some authority, having been there and stopped using it. I like the "counting beads" analogy. Tongues I've heard sounds like that indeed. I'm sorry you attended a "fundamentalist Pentacostal" college for that long, where bead counting long ago replaced the genuine experiences of Seymour's little troupe

Let me ask though, don't you think that the Baby has too often been thrown out with the dirty bathwater, and is it possible that God might use all the gifts once again in an awakening yet to come? Also, what do you think about the other gifts, about a church being able to prophesy "one by one" for example? Do you make a distinction between true revivals and man-made ones?

Rad

 

[Anth]

Let me ask though, don't you think that the Baby has too often been thrown out with the dirty bathwater, and is it possible that God might use all the gifts once again in an awakening yet to come? Also, what do you think about the other gifts, about a church being able to prophesy "one by one" for example? Do you make a distinction between true revivals and man-made ones?

Rad,

Good question. I realize that what I believe or don't believe is ultimately irrelevant to reality. However, I remain firmly convinced of the reality of the Gifts of the Spirit that Paul lays out in ICor12 - I see no reason to reject these in any way.

OTOH - I am not entirely certain - with perhaps the exception of William Branham - that I have ever seen or even heard of the real thing. I have become pretty cynical after being involved with the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement for 15 years - including being something of an apologist but simaltaneously working my butt off to figure out and understand what are ultimately some rather difficult passages (I am not convinced that anyone really has them down to be honest).

Nevertheless - I long for genuine healing of the Spirit as well as others - there are many that claim gifts - gifts of teaching (anyone with a following presumably has the gift of teaching....you get my point) - but no one can fake GENUINE healing (lots of fake healing). However, in my longing/desiring (as the Scripture compells us), I do not seek this in a sort of frenzy, enthusiasm or any other spirit than stone cold soberness, brokeness and humiliy before God. I can truthfully tell you that I am yet probably not in a sufficient place for any signifcant manifestation of the spirit - I have learned better.

Sincerely,
Anth

 

[Imagican]

Anth,

Question:

WHAT exactly is a 'prayer language'?

and

What PURPOSE does it SERVE?

I mean God UNDERSTANDS whatever language we speak, so why a language that NO ONE understands?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[radorth]

Nevertheless - I long for genuine healing of the Spirit as well as others - there are many that claim gifts - gifts of teaching (anyone with a following presumably has the gift of teaching....you get my point) - but no one can fake GENUINE healing (lots of fake healing). However, in my longing/desiring (as the Scripture compells us), I do not seek this in a sort of frenzy, enthusiasm or any other spirit than stone cold soberness, brokeness and humiliy before God. I can truthfully tell you that I am yet probably not in a sufficient place for any signifcant manifestation of the spirit - I have learned better.

Sincerely,
Anth

Wow, this is almost like a real discussion between brothers. I struggle with the same things. I had gifts which have not manifested for some time and I do not know why. You could say I outgrew them. That's possible but highly unlikely. One could also say I backslid, which I do several times a week. Of late though, I am wondering if the lack of corporate revival and opportunity to use the gifts is just not there right now. I think we slip slowly into a works-based "I don't deserve it"mentality is the real problem. These days I'm thinking this is actually a narcissistic position of "God can't do this and that with me because of my bad works." I know it's hard for us to swallow the idea our "humility" isn't so humble yet, but Is the blood covering only that which I decide it covers?

The history of revival and the NT itself shows how God has used the weaker members more than the strong." Am I discovering with Nee that I am really just the incarnation of weakness and God is waiting for me to figure that out? When I am weakest, and stop struggling, I sometimes feel spiritually the strongest. I still see what is probably words of knowledge and prophecy coming out in our little cell group, but nothing earthshaking. I just let it come out by faith when I get an impression. We have an enforced quiet time, which yields some wonderful visions and words which generally fit together beautifully, although not always. Sometimes we just get pieces.

Anyway, thanks for posting.

Rad

 

[follower of Christ]

Let me ask though, don't you think that the Baby has too often been thrown out with the dirty bathwater, and is it possible that God might use all the gifts once again in an awakening yet to come?

What 'awakening' would that be ?
Scripture VERY clearly shows that there will be a falling away and a great delusion on mankind. I dont see any 'awakening' in scripture. We were 'awakened' by Christ when we were born again, the veil over our hearts removed, there is no need for any new age 'awakening'.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
(2Th 2:3-12)

 

[radorth]

What 'awakening' would that be ?
Scripture VERY clearly shows that there will be a falling away and a great delusion on mankind. I dont see any 'awakening' in scripture. We were 'awakened' by Christ when we were born again, the veil over our hearts removed, there is no need for any new age 'awakening'.

Um, any awakening God wants, like for example another Great Awakening?

Are you predicting the tribulation will happen before any more such awakenings can happen?

If not, your post would be irrelevant.

 

[follower of Christ]

Um, any awakening God wants, like for example another Great Awakening?

Are you predicting the tribulation will happen before any more such awakenings can happen?

If not, your post would be irrelevant.

Great Awakening....where again was that in the New Testament ?
Sounds a bit New Agey to me....

AGAIN. Scripture says that the veil is removed in Christ. We need no new age 'great awakening'. We are already awake.

 

[radorth]

Um, any awakening God wants, like for example another Great Awakening?

Are you predicting the tribulation will happen before any more such awakenings can happen?

If not, your post would be irrelevant.

Great Awakening....where again was that in the New Testament ?
Sounds a bit New Agey to me....

AGAIN. Scripture says that the veil is removed in Christ. We need no new age 'great awakening'. We are already awake.

The Quakers, Whitefield, Roberts, Wesley and Seymour were all New Agers?

Do you have a scripture to prove it? Or is that just your opinion based on your own lack of experience of revival or the most basic gifts?

 

[Anth]

Follower - With all due respect, you have some American History to catch up on. I won't detail the two Great Awakening's hear as well as the other key revival movements that have swept America since literally before the constitution - but they have been core events. Whether legit or not, they are something to understand as a part of "church history". The whole history of tongues at Stone's Folly in Topeka Kansas and then out at the churches in CA as the Pentecostal movement swept in is another piece that is critical to seeing where we are at today. No need for an indepth but at least a summary glance.

Best,
Anth

 

[Anth]

MEC

The purpose for praying in another language per Pentecostal theology is to short circuit your mind and pray with your spirit - to the edifying of yourself - sometimes your mind knows not how to pray but your spirit is given unction by the Holy Spirit to release itself in prayer to God for that which is needed.

That is a short and sweet version. If Cornelius or any others who current speak in tongues has something to add, that would be welcome - it has been a while for me (over 20 years...).

Best,
Greg

 

[Alabaster]

Are Christians missing out if they don't speak in tongues?

Of course. Why wouldn't anyone want all that Jesus died to give them? people live and die knowing Jesus all the time without the gift of tongues, or even the baptism of the Holy Spirit. they are saved. They will see the Kingdom, but what will be the reward, and how rich will it be?

Without the power of the Holy Spirit coursing through us, ofttne times we will labour in the flesh. With the gifts of the Holy Spirit active in and through us, we see much more success and benefit in our lives.

 

[Imagican]

MEC

The purpose for praying in another language per Pentecostal theology is to short circuit your mind and pray with your spirit - to the edifying of yourself - sometimes your mind knows not how to pray but your spirit is given unction by the Holy Spirit to release itself in prayer to God for that which is needed.

That is a short and sweet version. If Cornelius or any others who current speak in tongues has something to add, that would be welcome - it has been a while for me (over 20 years...).

Best,
Greg

Anth,

While I am well aware that there are twisting and bending of scripture by the varied denominations, what I was looking for was BIBLICAL or scriptural reference to 'prayer language'.

God understands what I am THINKING. I can pray SILENTLY in my mind and God UNDERSTANDS. And God understands BEFORE I pray through an understanding of MY HEART.

So, according the the Pentacostals that practice this 'prayer language', THEY are SPECIAL in that The Holy Spirit indwells in them and offers SPECIAL GIFTS, but the REST of the Christian Community, being VOID of these particular gifts, IS NOT Spirit filled?

And this is the UNITY that Paul and the other apostles speak of?

Hmmmmm..............

Question:

Why is it that the use of 'tongues' was NOT discussed in ANY other epistles EXCEPT those written to those IN CORINTH?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[follower of Christ]

Are Christians missing out if they don't speak in tongues?

Of course. Why wouldn't anyone want all that Jesus died to give them? people live and die knowing Jesus all the time without the gift of tongues, or even the baptism of the Holy Spirit. they are saved. They will see the Kingdom, but what will be the reward, and how rich will it be?

Without the power of the Holy Spirit coursing through us, ofttne times we will labour in the flesh. With the gifts of the Holy Spirit active in and through us, we see much more success and benefit in our lives.

Sorry but until someone can present CLEAR scripture that SAYS that ALL will speak in tongues or even need to, we will have to go with PAULS words that show conclusively that tongues is the least of gifts to desire.

 

[follower of Christ]

Follower - With all due respect, you have some American History to catch up on. I won't detail the two Great Awakening's hear as well as the other key revival movements that have swept America since literally before the constitution - but they have been core events.

PUHlease.
Im not interested in how AMERICAN history shows some perversion of the gospel of Jesus Christ
Show me SCRIPTURE that speaks about some 'great awakening' chap...then we'll talk .

Whether legit or not, they are something to understand as a part of "church history". The whole history of tongues at Stone's Folly in Topeka Kansas and then out at the churches in CA as the Pentecostal movement swept in is another piece that is critical to seeing where we are at today. No need for an indepth but at least a summary glance.

Best,
Anth

Yeah, Ive heard of a few historical events around the turn of the 20th century. Sorry but it cannot be supported with scripture that any new 'awakening' was to happen.
That is something you folks read INTO the NT texts.
This 'latter rain' nonsense is just that.

 

[follower of Christ]

MEC

The purpose for praying in another language per Pentecostal theology is to short circuit your mind and pray with your spirit - to the edifying of yourself - sometimes your mind knows not how to pray but your spirit is given unction by the Holy Spirit to release itself in prayer to God for that which is needed.

That is a short and sweet version. If Cornelius or any others who current speak in tongues has something to add, that would be welcome - it has been a while for me (over 20 years...).

Best,
Greg

What I find pretty funny about all this is that my wife and I pray all the time IN the ENGLISH language and Ive seen absolute miracles performed in her life.
Not ONE single word of tongues from her and in all my years (1985) of this walk I NEVER saw a single tongues pusher come close to the miraculous things in my wifes life thru prayer.
She is the ONLY person whom Ive EVER actually seen pray for someone and seen IMMEDIATE healing....and shes NEVER spoken in tongues.
Ive seen things in our life where prayer is concerned that Ive NEVER see a charismatic gain from prayer.

On the other hand I HAVE seen a lot of charismatics fall away from the faith.
I have seen a lot of them living in open sin.
I have seen a lot of them doing thing that not even the unsaved would do.
And all the while they have all told me to speak in tongues and run on about how much I was supposedly missing by not speaking in tongues (which again, they also do not know what Ive done or not).

So please, dont even try to make it sound like praying in 'tongues' gets you something praying in MY language doesnt.
Ive SEEN the effects of SINCERE prayer..and I'll take the sincere prayer of my wife in ENGLISH over anyone playing righteous and pushing tongues any day.

 

[follower of Christ]

The Quakers, Whitefield, Roberts, Wesley and Seymour were all New Agers?

There is a LOT of New Age philosophy rooted all thru the church. Ive been watching it since I came to Christ in 85 and it was certainly going on prior to that.

Do you have a scripture to prove it?

Oh gee yeah....I think the Quakers and Wesley are mentioned somewhere in Romans, arent they ? :crazy

Or is that just your opinion based on your own lack of experience of revival or the most basic gifts?

What a joke.
I was RAISED in charismatic churches, poster. This is nothing new to me. You need to try this tripe with someone who wasnt in the whole tongues movement from childhood.
And that FIRST HAND experience was what gave me the inside information that MOST (99.9999%) of charismatics fake the experience and are simply caught up in unbridled emotionalism.

When you see someone who is SUPPOSEDLY overtaken by the Holy Spirit speaking in tongues and flailing about try to sneak a look out the corner of their eye to see what your reaction is to them then you know that someone is doing it for show. Ive seen that sort of thing more times than I can remember. Ive seen so many charismatics speaking in tongues one day and in open lust and sexual immorality the next that it turns my stomach.
And please, dont even bother trying to claim anything about a few bad apples because your entire doctrine is based on your unscriptural distortions of the texts.

next round. or are we done here ?

 

[Alabaster]

[quote="Dave Slayer":3o83p8tp]Are Christians missing out if they don't speak in tongues?

Of course. Why wouldn't anyone want all that Jesus died to give them? people live and die knowing Jesus all the time without the gift of tongues, or even the baptism of the Holy Spirit. they are saved. They will see the Kingdom, but what will be the reward, and how rich will it be?

Without the power of the Holy Spirit coursing through us, ofttne times we will labour in the flesh. With the gifts of the Holy Spirit active in and through us, we see much more success and benefit in our lives.

Sorry but until someone can present CLEAR scripture that SAYS that ALL will speak in tongues or even need to, we will have to go with PAULS words that show conclusively that tongues is the least of gifts to desire.[/quote:3o83p8tp]

Every instance in Scripture where someone was baptized with the Holy Spirit, they spoke in tongues or in the Spirit.