What's new
By:
Filters
Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Are Christians Sinners?

electedbyhim said:
I agree, a true Christian cannot practice or live a lifestyle of sin.

Nevertheless, Christians can fall into sin daily sometimes.
Click to expand...
What is your cut-off line between "practicing" and "non-practicing"?
One sin a month ? Ten sins ?
One sin a week? Ten sins ?
One sin a day ? Ten sins a day ?

Any sin at all proves one is not repentant of sin.
Any sin at all proves one is not reborn of God's seed.
 
F345T said:
If they're attempting to walk upright in the Spirit and they stumble, that does not place them in the definition of "sinner" that the Bible presents in the verses in the OP.
Click to expand...
Yes, it does.
F345T said:
If God can't hear "sinners", then Christians cannot be sinners.
Click to expand...
Got that right !
Thank God for the gifts of repentance from sin, and the gift of the Holy Ghost, and the gift of rebirth from His own perfect seed.
Those things allow us to be totally free from sin.
 
Hopeful 2 said:
He was the worst sinner that was saved.
He didn't keep offending God after his conversion.

Answered in Rom 6:6..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
Click to expand...
Let me get this straight, becuase you do not have sin and do not sin whatsoever, you are infallible.

So everything you post here, that is Biblical, is perfect truth because you are sinless.

You can never misinterpret any Scriptures, because you are perfect and sinless.

Basically anything you say is absolute truth.

Is this correct.?
 
electedbyhim said:
I am not building a doctrine of any sort. I am saying I can relate with Paul.


PreceptAustin.com

Spurgeon on foremost of sinners - “Despair’s head is cut off and stuck on a pole by the salvation of ‘the chief of sinners.’ No man can now say that he is too great a sinner to be saved, because the chief of sinners was saved eighteen hundred years ago. If the ringleader, the chief of the gang, has been washed in the precious blood, and is now in heaven, why not I? Why not you?” (Quoted by David Guzik - Enduring Word Bible Commentary 1 Timothy 1)

Donald Guthrie points out that "Paul never got away from the fact that Christian salvation was intended for sinners, and the more he increased his grasp of the magnitude of God's grace, the more he deepened the consciousness of his own naturally sinful state, until he could write of whom I am chief." (See The Pastoral Epistles: An Introduction and Commentary)

W E Vine on foremost - Though the word prōtos, first, sometimes applied to time, here it applies to degree. There was no mock modesty with the apostle in making this statement, nor was he making a comparison between himself and his unbelieving fellow nationals; nor, again, was he indulging in mere rhetoric. The contemplation of his sins and the extent to which, before his conversion, he had missed the true purpose of his being, leads him to make this statement in all sincerity and humility. Paul was a man of high ideals, and the higher the ideal a man sets before him, the more deeply will he feel the extent of his failure to attain to it. There is always a gulf between the character of Christ Himself and that of His most devoted followers. So fully did the apostle appreciate this, that he does not say “of whom I was chief,” but uses the present tense. Noticeable in this respect is the special stress upon the personal pronoun “I”; both its very insertion as well as its position, last in the sentence, make it peculiarly emphatic (Collected Writings of W.E. Vine)

THOUGHT - Are you growing in your awareness of your sin and the offense it is to the holiness of God? Or are you growing complacent in your attitude toward sin, especially those little "secret sins" that keep coming up like weeds in the garden of your heart? Dear follower of Christ. Look out! Backsliding can occur subtly and seductively!

Gregory Brown adds a couple of good application questions - How can we protect ourselves from becoming desensitized to sin? How have you experienced both a progression and a decrease of sensitivity to sin and why?

MacDonald "Notice that the title “chief of sinners” is not given to a man steeped in idolatry or immorality, but rather to a deeply religious man, one who had been brought up in an orthodox Jewish home! His sin was doctrinal; he did not accept the word of God concerning the Person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ. Rejection of the Son of God is the greatest of sins.

When one compares the chronology of similar statements by Paul, it is clear that as Christ increased, Paul decreased (cf Jn 3:30+), as he grew in the grace and knowledge of his Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, (2Pe 3:18+), the depth of the sin he had been completely forgiven became more apparent (and this should be the pattern in our lives beloved) (dates below are approximate). For context most date Paul's conversion at 34-35AD, so when he refers to himself as the foremost of sinners he has been following Christ for almost 30 years! Below we have the progression of humility as one grows in grace...

  • 55AD 1 Corinthians 15:9+ For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
  • 61AD Ephesians 3:8+ To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ,
  • 63-66AD 1 Timothy 1:15 It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all.
The longer and closer a person walks with Jesus Christ, the more he or she becomes aware of the depths of their sinful nature, which in turn drives them to a greater sense of horror when they do sin against Him (because we are sinning against light), which in turn gives a deeper appreciation of the amazing mercy and grace of God! I speak from personal experience of walking with Jesus 35 years!

Alexander Maclaren said, “The sign of growing perfection is the growing consciousness of imperfection.... The more you become like Christ the more you will find out your unlikeness to Him” (From sermon "Chief of Sinners" on 1 Timothy 1:15)

C S Lewis - “When a man is getting better, he understands more and more clearly the evil that is still in him. When a man is getting worse, he understands his own badness less and less” (Quoted by Nathan Hatch in Christianity Today , Vol 23, No 11, page 15 - article entitled "Purging the Poisoned Well Within" - Blunting the Gospel. The Gospel demands humility -- it brings us to our knees.)
Click to expand...
Nice post, but none of that carries any weight with me.

I go by Scripture. Scripture states that God hates sinners and wants them all dead and that He can't even hear their prayers. Thus, it is easy to accurately deduce that Christians are not sinners.

It doesn't matter what any man has stated to the contrary and I don't buy that Paul taught against Scripture in any way.

We can agree to disagree, but I won't concede that the Bible has spoken falsely about its God-spoken definition of sinners.
 
F345T said:
Nice post, but none of that carries any weight with me.

I go by Scripture. Scripture states that God hates sinners and wants them all dead and that He can't even hear their prayers. Thus, it is easy to accurately deduce that Christians are not sinners.

It doesn't matter what any man has stated to the contrary and I don't buy that Paul taught against Scripture in any way.

We can agree to disagree, but I won't concede that the Bible has spoken falsely about its God-spoken definition of sinners.
Click to expand...
God hates sinners and wants them all dead
Click to expand...
You should post the Scripture so that others know what you are talking about.
 
F345T said:
It's in the OP.

"Now we know that God heareth not sinners: ..."
John 9:31
Click to expand...
John 9:31​

Now we know that God heareth not sinners,.... All mankind are sinners, even God's elect; yea, such who are truly gracious and righteous persons; for there is no man without sin; and God hears such who cry unto him day and night; such Christ came to save; for such he died; and these he calls to repentance; and every penitent sinner God hears: but by "sinners" are meant notorious sinners, such in whom sin reigns, who live in sin, and particularly impostors. The man takes up the word the Jews had made use of, and applied to Christ, Joh_9:24, and suggests, that had Jesus been a sinner, that is, an impostor, God would not have heard him, or have assisted him in doing a miracle, to support an imposture, or cover and encourage a fraud; but that he was heard and assisted, was a plain case: whereas not only they, the learned doctors of the nation, but such an illiterate man as himself knew, that notoriously wicked men, cheats, and deceivers, were not heard of God; and this was known from the Scripture, and all experience; see Psa_66:18. The Persic and Ethiopic versions read, "I know, that God", &c.

but if any man be a worshipper of God; fears the Lord, and worships him in spirit and in truth, both with internal and external worship:

and doth his will; for it is not everyone that Lord, or draws nigh to God with his mouth, and honours him with his lips, that is a true and sincere worshipper of him; but he that does his will in faith, from a principle of love, and with a view to his glory: and

him he heareth; for he is nigh to all that call upon him in truth; and such an one the man intimates Jesus must be, since it was out of all dispute that God had heard him, and had bore a testimony to him.

John Gill
 
electedbyhim said:
You should post the Scripture so that others know what you are talking about.
Click to expand...
You should read the OP again.
hawkman said:
@F345T , didn't God hear you while you were a sinner ?
Click to expand...
Ah, I see that you're admitting Christians aren't sinners after they've been saved.

Nice.

And thanks for the verse reference that further supports my point.
"...while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
Rom. 5:8

That is an undebatable proof that Christians do not remain sinners.

Thanks hawkman
 
electedbyhim said:
John 9:31​

Now we know that God heareth not sinners,.... All mankind are sinners, even God's elect; yea, such who are truly gracious and righteous persons; for there is no man without sin; and God hears such who cry unto him day and night; such Christ came to save; for such he died; and these he calls to repentance; and every penitent sinner God hears: but by "sinners" are meant notorious sinners, such in whom sin reigns, who live in sin, and particularly impostors. The man takes up the word the Jews had made use of, and applied to Christ, Joh_9:24, and suggests, that had Jesus been a sinner, that is, an impostor, God would not have heard him, or have assisted him in doing a miracle, to support an imposture, or cover and encourage a fraud; but that he was heard and assisted, was a plain case: whereas not only they, the learned doctors of the nation, but such an illiterate man as himself knew, that notoriously wicked men, cheats, and deceivers, were not heard of God; and this was known from the Scripture, and all experience; see Psa_66:18. The Persic and Ethiopic versions read, "I know, that God", &c.

but if any man be a worshipper of God; fears the Lord, and worships him in spirit and in truth, both with internal and external worship:

and doth his will; for it is not everyone that Lord, or draws nigh to God with his mouth, and honours him with his lips, that is a true and sincere worshipper of him; but he that does his will in faith, from a principle of love, and with a view to his glory: and

him he heareth; for he is nigh to all that call upon him in truth; and such an one the man intimates Jesus must be, since it was out of all dispute that God had heard him, and had bore a testimony to him.

John Gill
Click to expand...
I think you're forgetting something there ...

If the first part of the verse states that God doesn't hear sinners, but you wish to make the case that the second part says God hears those who do His will, you are leaving a very loose end there.

So who does God consider sinners in that verse then?

Must not be those who do His will, huh?

Must be somebody other than Christians, huh?
 
F345T said:
I think you're forgetting something there ...

If the first part of the verse states that God doesn't hear sinners, but you wish to make the case that the second part says God hears those who do His will, you are leaving a very loose end there.

So who does God consider sinners in that verse then?

Must not be those who do His will, huh?

Must be somebody other than Christians, huh?
Click to expand...

What exactly is your point?
 
God hates sinners and wants them all dead
Click to expand...


I am still trying to find the scripture that says God wants all sinners dead.

Ezekiel 33:11 “Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares Lord Yahweh, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’
 
F345T said:
Ah, I see that you're admitting Christians aren't sinners after they've been saved.
Click to expand...
I am trying to show you there is not a verse that said God cannot hear prayers of sinners .

F345T said:
The fact remains, God cannot hear the prayers of sinners.
Click to expand...
God does not hear the prayers of sinners in certain circumstances .

Do you understand the once blind man ?
 
Last edited:
F345T What are you asking by "are Christians sinners"? If you asking "are Christians the types of people whose lives are characterized by continual, unrepentant sin, so that they are no different than unbelievers?," then no. But, if you are asking "are Christians those who are justified but still fighting sin in the flesh, yet growing in sanctification through the power and help of the Holy Spirit?," then the answer is yes. And that is what most preachers and teachers mean when they say Christians are sinners--we are truly justified but we still struggle against sin, and sometimes lose, but we confess and so are forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness.
 
Anybody who feels compelled to tell others that they do no sin is not somebody you would want to buy a used car from.
Such adulation of their own flesh being suggestive of someone who is driven by a spirit that is alienated from the Peace of God in their heart.
Their self-promotion never able to cultivate the calmness & Spiritual Poise they crave that only a sacred intimacy with God can give they only become louder more disquieted unlovely champions of their own unrest .
Their paramount allegiance being to their sovereign selves , rather than to Christ.
Very much like individuals who out of the blue feel compelled to tell you that they are Christians out of fear that if they did not tell you , you would never know they were .
 
F345T said:
Absolutely not.

This is one of the most disturbing popular claims among almost every single modern church and big name Preacher today. Christians are not sinners.

Even from very early on in my Christian walk, this claim repulsed me from within. How could this be? How could Christians be calling themselves sinners? Yes, of course we've all sinned. Yes, we still stumble, but to declare that you are a sinner is to claim that you accept and embrace sin. That is absolutely the polar opposite of what the Christian Faith is all about. No true Christian is a sinner.

Sin separates us from God. It is an open offense to our Savior. Why in the world would we ever want to claim to be that?

True sincere Christians are most certainly not sinners.

Proof? Sure.

If Christians were sinners, God would never hear a single prayer ... ever.
"Now we know that God does not hear sinners; ..."
John 9:31

If Christians were sinners, God would hate all Christians and want them all dead.
"All the sinners of My people shall die by the sword, ..."
Amos 9:10
"Behold the Day of the Lord cometh, ... to lay the land desolate: and He shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it."
Isaiah 13:9
"He that committeth sin (willingly) is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning."
1 John 3:8
"... consider Him that endured such (hostility) of sinners against Himself, ..."
Hebrews 12:3

God does not count sinners among the righteous at all.
"Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful."
Psalm 1:1
"... the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous."
Psalm 1:5

One of the most obvious, and nonsensical, aspects of this contradiction is the very definition of the Christian. A Christian is a follower of Christ. Was Christ a sinner? Nothing could be further from the Truth. Christ lived a 100% sin-less life. So for all these big name Preachers to get up there in front of their massive congregations and repeatedly vomit out the nonsensical claim that Christians are sinners is literally equivalent to saying Christians are not .... Christians? How preposterous is that?

So next time you go to quote John Macarthur or Michael Brown or Billy Graham or David Jeremiah or any of the other massively famous TV Preachers, just remember how ridiculous some of what they are preaching really is.
Click to expand...
Hey All,
F345T, if God doesn't hear sinners, then how did you get saved? Don't you have to confess your sins? Only then is God faithful and just to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
(1 John 1:9)

If believers do not sin, why did the same John that you quoted here write that if we (believers ) do sin we (believers) have an advocate with the father. Further to the point, Jesus is also our propitiation. (1 John 2:1:2)
Jesus paid the price for our sins, and He is our Advocate when we do sin.

What you are saying does not match up with Scripture.

You have never had an impure thought since you received Christ? Of course you have.

"Even from very early on in my Christian walk, this claim repulsed me from within. How could this be? How could Christians be calling themselves sinners? Yes, of course we've all sinned. Yes, we still stumble, but to declare that you are a sinner is to claim that you accept and embrace sin. That is absolutely the polar opposite of what the Christian Faith is all about. No true Christian is a sinner." Quote from F345T


How could Christians be calling themselves sinners?
Because the Bible tells us we are. I just gave you what John wrote.

"Yes, of course we've all sinned." Quote from F345T
Yes we have and will.

"Yes, we still stumble, but to declare that you are a sinner is to claim that you accept and embrace sin." Quote from F345T
What is your definition of what is a sin? Are there stumbling blocks on the straight and narrow way?
If you stumble you are no longer on the straight and narrow. So by definition stumbling is the sin.

"That is absolutely the polar opposite of what the Christian Faith is all about. No true Christian is a sinner." Quote from F345T
Every true Christian was a sinner.
Every true Christian still has the capacity to sin, and does sin. The Bible tells us this. (As I wrote about earlier.)

"He that committeth sin (willingly) is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning."
1 John 3:8
"... consider Him that endured such (hostility) of sinners against Himself, ..."
Hebrews 12:3" verse quotes from F345T

Either your Bible is lying you, or you have either added words, or changed words, to say what the writers did not mean. Here are the verses from my KJV Bible.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Hebrews 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

This completely negates your argument. If you know the changes are purposefully there to change Bible meaning, then that is outright being deceitful. A sin.
If you were not aware that you were passing on a lie, that is a sin of ignorance. You may not have meant to, but you did do it.
We may separate these sins into categories. God does not. All sin is the same in God's eyes.

1 John 1:8-9 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Jonah 2:8 They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy.

It is a lying vanity to believe you cannot sin.

To those of us who understand that freedom from sin is a battle that we wage against the flesh every day, we know what you are saying is not true.
As such, what you write comes across as boastful and proud; like you are better than we are.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz
 
electedbyhim said:
Let me get this straight, becuase you do not have sin and do not sin whatsoever, you are infallible.
Click to expand...
LOL
electedbyhim said:
So everything you post here, that is Biblical, is perfect truth because you are sinless.
You can never misinterpret any Scriptures, because you are perfect and sinless.
Basically anything you say is absolute truth.
Is this correct.?
Click to expand...
No, it is not correct.
I, like all lovers of God, continue to grow in grace and knowledge as I age.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top