Are Christians Sinners?

[Hopeful 2]

I am trying to show you there is not a verse that said God cannot hear prayers of sinners .

On the contrary, both John 9:31 and 1 Peter 3:12 say it..."For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil."

God does not hear the prayers of sinners in certain circumstances .
Do you understand the once blind man ?

Didn't Jesus say that he was blind not because of his or his parent's sins ? (John 9:3)

 

[Hopeful 2]

F345T What are you asking by "are Christians sinners"? If you asking "are Christians the types of people whose lives are characterized by continual, unrepentant sin, so that they are no different than unbelievers?," then no. But, if you are asking "are Christians those who are justified but still fighting sin in the flesh, yet growing in sanctification through the power and help of the Holy Spirit?," then the answer is yes. And that is what most preachers and teachers mean when they say Christians are sinners--we are truly justified but we still struggle against sin, and sometimes lose, but we confess and so are forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness.

Why would anyone, who has crucified the flesh, with the affections and lusts, (Gal 5:24), still be fighting something that is long gone ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Anybody who feels compelled to tell others that they do no sin is not somebody you would want to buy a used car from.
Such adulation of their own flesh being suggestive of someone who is driven by a spirit that is alienated from the Peace of God in their heart.
Their self-promotion never able to cultivate the calmness & Spiritual Poise they crave that only a sacred intimacy with God can give they only become louder more disquieted unlovely champions of their own unrest .
Their paramount allegiance being to their sovereign selves , rather than to Christ.
Very much like individuals who out of the blue feel compelled to tell you that they are Christians out of fear that if they did not tell you , you would never know they were .

That is pretty funny, coming from someone named "Consecrated Life".

Is holiness such a foreign concept to you that you really can't visualize it ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

I know a sinner that God heard , me !

F345T , didn't God hear you while you were a sinner ?

God didn't hear my prayers until I repented of sin.

 

[Hopeful 2]

John 9:31​

Now we know that God heareth not sinners,.... All mankind are sinners, even God's elect; yea, such who are truly gracious and righteous persons; for there is no man without sin; and God hears such who cry unto him day and night; such Christ came to save; for such he died; and these he calls to repentance; and every penitent sinner God hears: but by "sinners" are meant notorious sinners, such in whom sin reigns, who live in sin, and particularly impostors. The man takes up the word the Jews had made use of, and applied to Christ, Joh_9:24, and suggests, that had Jesus been a sinner, that is, an impostor, God would not have heard him, or have assisted him in doing a miracle, to support an imposture, or cover and encourage a fraud; but that he was heard and assisted, was a plain case: whereas not only they, the learned doctors of the nation, but such an illiterate man as himself knew, that notoriously wicked men, cheats, and deceivers, were not heard of God; and this was known from the Scripture, and all experience; see Psa_66:18. The Persic and Ethiopic versions read, "I know, that God", &c.

but if any man be a worshipper of God; fears the Lord, and worships him in spirit and in truth, both with internal and external worship:

and doth his will; for it is not everyone that Lord, or draws nigh to God with his mouth, and honours him with his lips, that is a true and sincere worshipper of him; but he that does his will in faith, from a principle of love, and with a view to his glory: and

him he heareth; for he is nigh to all that call upon him in truth; and such an one the man intimates Jesus must be, since it was out of all dispute that God had heard him, and had bore a testimony to him.

John Gill

Sinners are not "doing His will", nor are they worshippers of God.
Servants of sin, (John 8:34), hate God.
It is written..."No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other..."

 

[7thMoon]

Absolutely not.

This is one of the most disturbing popular claims among almost every single modern church and big name Preacher today. Christians are not sinners.

Even from very early on in my Christian walk, this claim repulsed me from within. How could this be? How could Christians be calling themselves sinners? Yes, of course we've all sinned. Yes, we still stumble, but to declare that you are a sinner is to claim that you accept and embrace sin. That is absolutely the polar opposite of what the Christian Faith is all about. No true Christian is a sinner.

Sin separates us from God. It is an open offense to our Savior. Why in the world would we ever want to claim to be that?

True sincere Christians are most certainly not sinners.

Proof? Sure.

If Christians were sinners, God would never hear a single prayer ... ever.
"Now we know that God does not hear sinners; ..."
John 9:31

Did this come from his opponents? I beg to differ. When I wrong something, I am a sinner, but not all the time.

If Christians were sinners, God would hate all Christians and want them all dead.
"All the sinners of My people shall die by the sword, ..."
Amos 9:10
"Behold the Day of the Lord cometh, ... to lay the land desolate: and He shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it."
Isaiah 13:9
"He that committeth sin (willingly) is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning."
1 John 3:8
"... consider Him that endured such (hostility) of sinners against Himself, ..."
Hebrews 12:3

God does not count sinners among the righteous at all.
"Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful."
Psalm 1:1
"... the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous."
Psalm 1:5

One of the most obvious, and nonsensical, aspects of this contradiction is the very definition of the Christian. A Christian is a follower of Christ. Was Christ a sinner? Nothing could be further from the Truth. Christ lived a 100% sin-less life. So for all these big name Preachers to get up there in front of their massive congregations and repeatedly vomit out the nonsensical claim that Christians are sinners is literally equivalent to saying Christians are not .... Christians? How preposterous is that?

Medieval Catholicism rears its ugly head with total inability and everlasting punishment. Personally, my least favorite dogma is Penal Substitutionary Atonement.

So next time you go to quote John Macarthur or Michael Brown or Billy Graham or David Jeremiah or any of the other massively famous TV Preachers, just remember how ridiculous some of what they are preaching really is.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Thank you, 7th Moon, for your prayers.

 

[Free]

Why would anyone, who has crucified the flesh, with the affections and lusts, (Gal 5:24), still be fighting something that is long gone ?

Because it isn’t long gone. That is taught nowhere in Scripture. Nowhere is it taught that we cannot sin or do not sin.

What is taught is that we are to continually confess our sins for forgiveness (1 John 1:9), as well as try to be holy with the help of the Holy Spirit. As we do so, we grow in sanctification and sin less and less. But we are never told we will be completely free of sin in this life. Remember, John says that any “believer” who claims to be without sin is self-deceived, doesn’t have the truth, makes God a liar, and doesn’t have his word in them (1 John 1:8, 10).

This is what Paul means when he is talking about the flesh crucified:

Rom 6:6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.
Rom 6:7 For one who has died has been set free from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.
Rom 6:9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.
Rom 6:11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions.
Rom 6:13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness.
Rom 6:14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!
Rom 6:16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed,
Rom 6:18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.
Rom 6:19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification. (ESV)

Notice what Paul doesn't say--that believers are dead to sin; that they cannot sin anymore. What he does say is that because of the death and resurrection of Christ, we are "no longer. . . enslaved to sin," have "been set free from sin," and "sin will no longer have dominion over [us]."

Does that mean we cannot sin anymore? No, and the rest of the context makes this clear. We are to "consider [our]selves dead to sin;" we are to "Let not sin reign in [our] mortal bod[ies], to make [us] obey its passions;" we are not to "present [our] members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness;" we are not to "sin because we are not under law but under grace." So, Paul gives specific commands of what believers are not to do in regards to sin, which is meaningless if we cannot sin. More that than, Paul gives specific commands of what believers are to do in regards to righteousness, which also is meaningless if we cannot sin:

"consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus;" "present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness;" "now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification."

It's worth noting that in v. 19, the ESV's rendering of 'because of your natural limitations," is literally in the Greek, "on account of the weakness of the flesh of you." This is why other versions say:

Rom 6:19a (I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh.) (LEB)

Rom 6:19a I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. (NIV)

Rom 6:19a I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. (NASB)

Rom 6:19a I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: (KJV)

They all say the same thing as the ESV, but are closer to the Greek. We still fight sin in the flesh but are to "present [our] members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification." That is the Christian life; this is warfare, not retirement living. And all that is what Paul means by having our flesh crucified and having died with Christ. We have been set free from slavery to sin, but still fight against it as we are now to be slaves to righteousness, leading to sanctification.

 

[Free]

Personally, my least favorite dogma is Penal Substitutionary Atonement.

That's unfortunate, because that is at the center of the cross and Christ's work for our salvation. If there was no substitution on our behalf, we are all still in our sin and without hope of ever being saved.

 

[7thMoon]

That's unfortunate, because that is at the center of the cross and Christ's work for our salvation. If there was no substitution on our behalf, we are all still in our sin and without hope of ever being saved.

No it isn't. You only think the Passover is a sin offering. It isn't.

You have to put on the blood to so God would rescue you. And I really doubt you can since it is 2 millennia later.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Because it isn’t long gone. That is taught nowhere in Scripture. Nowhere is it taught that we cannot sin or do not sin.

Then Paul is a heretic.
He said..."8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
And..."4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
And..."8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."
All those verses were from Romans 8.

What is taught is that we are to continually confess our sins for forgiveness (1 John 1:9), as well as try to be holy with the help of the Holy Spirit. As we do so, we grow in sanctification and sin less and less. But we are never told we will be completely free of sin in this life. Remember, John says that any “believer” who claims to be without sin is self-deceived, doesn’t have the truth, makes God a liar, and doesn’t have his word in them (1 John 1:8, 10).

Who is that taught by ?
Those who continue to tell lies.
Are you going to believe a liar ?

This is what Paul means when he is talking about the flesh crucified:
Rom 6:6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.
Rom 6:7 For one who has died has been set free from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.
Rom 6:9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.
Rom 6:11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions.
Rom 6:13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness.
Rom 6:14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!
Rom 6:16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed,
Rom 6:18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.
Rom 6:19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification. (ESV)

Yep, and it worked just like that for me and the church by Christ Jesus (Eph 3:21)
Baptized into Christ and His burial. (v3)
Raised with Him to walk on newness of life. (v4)
Dead to sin. (v6)
Freed from sin. (v7)

Notice what Paul doesn't say--that believers are dead to sin; that they cannot sin anymore. What he does say is that because of the death and resurrection of Christ, we are "no longer. . . enslaved to sin," have "been set free from sin," and "sin will no longer have dominion over [us]."

If they are dead to sin, they won't commit any sin.
Only those who have only pretended to be dead to sin will commit further sin.

Does that mean we cannot sin anymore? No, and the rest of the context makes this clear. We are to "consider [our]selves dead to sin;" we are to "Let not sin reign in [our] mortal bod[ies], to make [us] obey its passions;" we are not to "present [our] members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness;" we are not to "sin because we are not under law but under grace." So, Paul gives specific commands of what believers are not to do in regards to sin, which is meaningless if we cannot sin. More that than, Paul gives specific commands of what believers are to do in regards to righteousness, which also is meaningless if we cannot sin:

You look at it with the hope of justifying sin.
I look at it from the perspective of one dead to sin.
Our views will never agree.

"consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus;" "present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness;" "now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification."

Why won't you obey ?

It's worth noting that in v. 19, the ESV's rendering of 'because of your natural limitations," is literally in the Greek, "on account of the weakness of the flesh of you." This is why other versions say:
Rom 6:19a (I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh.) (LEB)

Not everyone reading or hearing his letter was a convert.
Some things are from the perspective of instruction for unbelievers.

Rom 6:19a I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. (NIV)
Rom 6:19a I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. (NASB)
Rom 6:19a I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: (KJV)
They all say the same thing as the ESV, but are closer to the Greek. We still fight sin in the flesh but are to "present [our] members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification." That is the Christian life; this is warfare, not retirement living. And all that is what Paul means by having our flesh crucified and having died with Christ. We have been set free from slavery to sin, but still fight against it as we are now to be slaves to righteousness, leading to sanctification.

All that bad "flesh" would be gone with a simple obeying of Acts 2:38.
Repent, get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Then you can call flesh what it really is...skin and bones...which have no power at all.
The mind is in charge in the converted.
Paul mentions that in the tale of his own conversion, in Rom 7:25.

 

[7thMoon]

Hopeful 2 I think the problem is the pagan belief that prayer to God solves things, and we can imagine that a voice which answer is God. Prayer solves nothing.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hopeful 2 I think the problem is the pagan belief that prayer to God solves things, and we can imagine that a voice which answer is God. Prayer solves nothing.

It depends on whether not not the pray'er' is a convert or not.
Peter wrote... "For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil." (1 Peter 3:12)
There are no "righteous sinners".

 

[7thMoon]

It depends on whether not not the pray'er' is a convert or not.
Peter wrote... "For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil." (1 Peter 3:12)
There are no "righteous sinners".

As a deist, I don't agree about prayer.

 

[Josef]

LOL

No, it is not correct.
I, like all lovers of God, continue to grow in grace and knowledge as I age.

Hey All,
So you admit that you sin Hopeful 2; at least out of ignorance. Now I feel like you are starting to be honest.
Why do you need to grow in grace if you are sinless? Why do you need grace at all if you have achieved sinless perfection? Only sinners need grace because we cannot save ourselves.

Sin promotes growth. I believe that is why we still have the capability; and why we still sin. Sin lets us experience grace. Sin is the prodigal son feeling so unworthy because of what he had done. Grace is the father running to meet the son, hugging him, kissing him, treating him like the son he always had been. As a sinner, I experience this grace when I turn from my sin, repent, and get back on the straight and narrow way. A person who proclaims themselves sinlessly perfect, has no need for this grace.

If you need to grow, that is an admission of not being perfect. If you need to grow in grace, that is an admission that you still have sin in your life.

So by your own words, you are a sinner just like I am. I need God's grace make it through every day. So do you. Neither of us is perfect. Neither of us are sinless. Good breakthrough Hopeful 2.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[F345T]

What exactly is your point?

Title of the thread is 'Are Christians Sinners?'

Your verse supports the position that Christians are not sinners.

 

[F345T]

I am trying to show you there is not a verse that said God cannot hear prayers of sinners .

By posting verses that declare that Christians are no longer sinners?

Here's that verse again, sometimes repetition does produce positive results:
"... we know that God heareth not sinners: ..."
Jn. 9:31

God does not hear the prayers of sinners in certain circumstances .

That's not at all what the verse says and you're ignoring the accumulating pile of verses that support the position of the OP.

Here's another:

"For such an high priest (Jesus) ... who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; ..."
Heb.7:26

This verse means that even the Holy Spirit does not dwell with those who are "sinners", those who habitually sin daily.

Supported by John 14:21.

 

[F345T]

F345T, if God doesn't hear sinners, then how did you get saved?

Are we not "called to repentance", Josef ?

"I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."
Luke 5:32
"No man can come to Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him: ..."
John 6:44
"... no man cometh unto the Father but by Me."
John 14:6

Nobody is saved unless, and until, they are called/drawn by God and they must come through Jesus Christ.

Not only does God not hear sinners, but sinners cannot hear God.

"Why do ye not understand My speech? even because ye cannot hear My word."
John 8:43
"He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not because ye are not of God."
John 8:47

Only God's sheep can hear His words.

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow (obey) me:"
John 10:27

If believers do not sin,

I never claimed believers don't sin.

I will only play this game you are now playing very briefly.

What you are saying does not match up with Scripture.

I've supplied constant Scripture from the very OP of this thread.

 

[F345T]

When I wrong something, I am a sinner, but not all the time.

No, you're not a "sinner" when you stumble.

You're only a "sinner" if you're living in daily habitual sin, accepted and embraced sin.

If you're a sincere Christian, a follower of "sinless" Christ, you are not a "sinner".

Medieval Catholicism rears its ugly head with total inability and everlasting punishment. Personally, my least favorite dogma is Penal Substitutionary Atonement.

Did you change the channel?

Where did all that nonsense come from? You were replying to verses from the Bible.

 

[Josef]

I think you're forgetting something there ...

If the first part of the verse states that God doesn't hear sinners, but you wish to make the case that the second part says God hears those who do His will, you are leaving a very loose end there.

So who does God consider sinners in that verse then?

Must not be those who do His will, huh?

Must be somebody other than Christians, huh?

Hey All,
What both of you might be missing F345T and electedbyhim, is who is saying this.
The Pharisees are speaking and not telling the truth.
Anybody who can read knows that God speaks to sinners and hears their prayer if they pray according to His will.
Example:
God spoke to Adam and Eve after they had sinned.
God spoke to Cain after he murdered his brother.
All of the greats, Abraham, Moses, Joshua, David, etc. had their issues. None were perfect except maybe Enoch and Ezekiel. Yet God spoke to them and through them.

The point of this is don't build doctrine on the words of the Pharisees.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz