Are we born condemned with Adams sin...or innocent at birth?

[Cygnus]

Are we born condemned with Adams sin...or innocent at birth?

 

[WIP]

Please offer your position and provide the Scripture reference to support it per the rules of this forum.

 

[for_his_glory]

A baby can not inherit the sin of the parents, but are born with a sin nature. Adams sin was imputed to every one of us as there is none that are righteous, babies included, Romans 5:12-18. Psalms 58:3 says, The wicked are estranged (turn from God) from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. Who taught a child to lie or be rebellious against their parents? It's that sin nature that causes a child to do this. Psalms 51:5 says, Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. The only thing God gave us at birth was His very breath (spirit) that made us a living soul and it's that breath that goes back to God when we die as he preserves it in judgment until the coming of the Lord, Ecclesiastes 12:7.

 

[Cygnus]

Please offer your position and provide the Scripture reference to support it per the rules of this forum.

My position is we are born in sin.
Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

 

[Seabass]

All are born innocent, without sin therefore born into a safe state and if one dies in that safe state he would be saved by God being innocent. 1 John 3:4; Romans 7:8-9; Ecclesiastes 7:29; Zechariah 12:1; Isaiah 7:15-16; Luke 18:16...

(This applies also to those born with severe mental disabilities.)

 

[Cygnus]

All are born innocent, without sin therefore born into a safe state and if one dies in that safe state he would be saved by God being innocent. 1 John 3:4; Romans 7:8-9; Ecclesiastes 7:29; Zechariah 12:1; Isaiah 7:15-16; Luke 18:16...

(This applies also to those born with severe mental disabilities.)

I posted the verses you liked.
1 John 3:4. Everyone who practices sin practices lawlessness as well. Indeed, sin is lawlessness.

Romans 7:8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.

Ecclesiastes 7:29 "Behold, I have found only this, that God made men upright, but they have sought out many devices."

Zechariah 12:1 The oracle of the word of the LORD concerning Israel: Thus declares the LORD, who stretched out the heavens and founded the earth and formed the spirit of man within him:

Isaiah 7:15-16 15He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, 16for before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste.

Luke 18:16 But Jesus called them to him, saying, “Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God.

 

[Seabass]

I posted the verses you liked.
1 John 3:4. Everyone who practices sin practices lawlessness as well. Indeed, sin is lawlessness.

Romans 7:8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.

Ecclesiastes 7:29 "Behold, I have found only this, that God made men upright, but they have sought out many devices."

Zechariah 12:1 The oracle of the word of the LORD concerning Israel: Thus declares the LORD, who stretched out the heavens and founded the earth and formed the spirit of man within him:

Isaiah 7:15-16 15He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, 16for before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste.

Luke 18:16 But Jesus called them to him, saying, “Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God.

Thank you.

 

[Cygnus]

Thank you.

Your welcome......keep in mind I see many of those verses as not relating to the question....taken out of context from the original text and then applied in a way that you think bolsters your view.

 

[Seabass]

Your welcome......keep in mind I see many of those verses as not relating to the question....taken out of context from the original text and then applied in a way that you think bolsters your view.

They all relate to it, the first one for example:


1 John 3:4:
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

This one verse alone makes the idea of original sin impossible. A transgression must occur before there is sin. Since there is no sin DNA transferred from one to another, since sin is not a substance as bacteria/virus that is transferred one to another, since sin is not just an idea that is transferred one to another, therefore since no transgression takes place at conception there is no sin/sinner created at conception. You cannot call one a sinner when he has not sinned (committed a transgression) no more than you can call a person righteous who has done no righteousness.

By the way, Psa 51:5 says nothing at all about people being born sinners. So how does it prove your possition?

 

[WIP]

Your welcome......keep in mind I see many of those verses as not relating to the question....taken out of context from the original text and then applied in a way that you think bolsters your view.

Please explain. This forum requires it.

 

[Cygnus]

They all relate to it, the first one for example:


1 John 3:4:
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

This one verse alone makes the idea of original sin impossible. A transgression must occur before there is sin. Since there is no sin DNA transferred from one to another, since sin is not a substance as bacteria/virus that is transferred one to another, since sin is not just an idea that is transferred one to another, therefore since no transgression takes place at conception there is no sin/sinner created at conception. You cannot call one a sinner when he has not sinned (committed a transgression) no more than you can call a person righteous who has done no righteousness.

By the way, Psa 51:5 says nothing at all about people being born sinners. So how does it prove your possition?

WE all fell...sinned in Adam.

Romans 5:18Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

 

[Cygnus]

Please explain. This forum requires it.

We'll get there in due time.

For example... “Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God.
That verse isn't about innocent children belonging to the kingdom of God....but rather about becoming like a child who is dependent on their parents. Jesus is saying for those who become dependent of God, like a child is dependent on a parent belongs to the kingdom of God.

 

[Seabass]

WE all fell...sinned in Adam.

Romans 5:18Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

1) This does not address 1 John 3:4 that makes the idea of original sin impossible as i posted in my last post.

2) Romans 5:14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come."
If all men inherit Adam's sin, then all would "fall" due to the exact same sin of Adam, but Paul here speaks of those that "fell" by sinning a sin different from Adam's. Therefore people are sinners not passively just by being born inheriting Adam's sin but are sinner for choosing to sin. In verse 12 Paul says " for that all have sinned" with "have sinned" showing personal culpability in the sinning.

3)
Romans 5:18a Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;
Romans 5:18b even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

If Rom 5:18a proves all men are unconditionally born sinners due to Adam, then it is also true that same all men will unconditionally be justified due to Christ's righteousness and you are pushing Universalism.

Yet Paul did NOT say 'all men' are UNCONDITIONALLY made sinners no more than he said "all men" will UNCONDITIONALLY be justified. Paul points out in Romans 5:1-2 men are CONDITIONALLY made righteous/justified for having faith and in verse 12 men are CONDITIONALLY made sinners for choosing to sin. Paul's point in this context of Romans 5:18,19 is that all who have been effected by sin since sin entered the world thru Adam, Christ has a remedy for them brought about by His obedience in going to the cross. So not only can original sin NOT be found here, it also refutes the idea of limited atonement.

 

[Cygnus]

If all men inherit Adam's sin, then all would "fall" due to the exact same sin of Adam,

Which is exactly what happened.

Don't you know that the entire human race was within Adam in seed form? Because of that when Adam sinned, we all sinned in him?
1 Cor 15:22 informs us we were all in Adam.......For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

 

[chessman]

My position is we are born in sin.
Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Umm, does this say David's mother was sinful on the night of his conception or was the fertized egg being sinful?

 

[WIP]

We'll get there in due time.

For example... “Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God.
That verse isn't about innocent children belonging to the kingdom of God....but rather about becoming like a child who is dependent on their parents. Jesus is saying for those who become dependent of God, like a child is dependent on a parent belongs to the kingdom of God.

I'm not following you in this post and it looks to me more like you are taking it out of context. If we look at the verses before and after, it looks to me like Jesus is directly referencing the children and even infants that were being presented to him and then using it as an example to express His wisdom that we too are to come to Him like little children. I see that as meaning we are to humble ourselves as children are humble having not yet filled themselves with personal pride and selfish ambition.

Then they also brought infants to Him that He might touch them; but when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to Him and said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God. Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it.” Luke 18:15-19 NKJV

 

[Cygnus]

Umm, does this say David's mother was sinful on the night of his conception or was the fertized egg being sinful?

Every explanation I've heard says the verse is about David...now the interesting thing is when Davids son died David said he'd see him again.

 

[Cygnus]

I'm not following you in this post and it looks to me more like you are taking it out of context. If we look at the verses before and after, it looks to me like Jesus is directly referencing the children and even infants that were being presented to him and then using it as an example to express His wisdom that we too are to come to Him like little children. I see that as meaning we are to humble ourselves as children are humble having not yet filled themselves with personal pride and selfish ambition.

Then they also brought infants to Him that He might touch them; but when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to Him and said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God. Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it.” Luke 18:15-19 NKJV

The passage has more to say than what I touched on.

The following is from this article.
Our Savior’s response indicates that children are anything but outsiders to the kingdom. Once again He uses them as an object lesson, telling His followers the kingdom of heaven belongs to them (v. 14) and that salvation belongs to those who become like children. Of course, Christ is not teaching anything significant about an “age of accountability”; rather, He means that only those who possess childlike qualities like absolute dependence and simple trust can turn from their sin and rest upon Him alone (18:1–6; John 15:5; Gal. 2:15–16).

 

[stovebolts]

My position is we are born in sin.
Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Yes, some may be born in sin, but that in itself does not make one guilty of sin.

If we look at the Psalm you quoted, David is heavy in his sin with Bathsheba. I'm sure you know the story. David's first child with her was not for the sake of a child, but rather it was a fleshy desire for sexual intercourse. This is the proper context for this Psalm.

As a result, I believe David is reflecting on the personal satisfaction of intercourse, and as such is stating that he himself was conceived through those same sinful desires.

On the other hand, in Psalm 139 , David takes on a completely different tone where he states that He is fearfully and wonderfully made.

One cannot be fearfully and wonderfully made in a state of condemnation. Thus, to be conceived in sin is not to be made of sin.

If we want to run the idea of being condemned from birth out to it's logical conclusion carrying many mainstream doctrines, then infants and stillborns would never have a chance to repent of their sins and accept Jesus as Lord, thus they would go to Hell.

In reality, Adam and Eve were created with the ability to sin, and they did. This does not mean they were created in condemnation any more than their children.

So it's not about the potential to sin. It's about when we actually sin, and we are held accountable for said sin.

 

[Jim Parker]

An infant is not guilty of the sin of Adam. (Nor is anyone else.)
Deu 24:16 Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall children be put to death for their fathers; a person shall be put to death for his own sin.

Eze 18:20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

2Ki 14:5-6 Now it happened, as soon as the kingdom was established in his hand, that he (Amaziah) executed his servants who had murdered his father the king. But the children of the murderers he did not execute, according to what is written in the Book of the Law of Moses, in which the LORD commanded, saying, “Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall children be put to death for their fathers; but a person shall be put to death for his own sin.

There is a period of innocence during which the infant does not know that there is such a thing as good or evil. I don't believe God will condemn an infant during that period.
Isa 7:16a "...before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good,..."

But everyone will sin and the wages of sin is death.
Rom 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,"
Rom 6:23a "For the wages of sin is death,..."

iakov the fool