Are we born condemned with Adams sin...or innocent at birth?

[Cygnus]

And David's mother:

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.
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How could David be sinful in his conception? Wouldn't the sin/inquity spoken of be attributed to his mother, father or both?

No, Adam.

 

[chessman]

Hmmmmmm, does death happen to that which contains no sin?

Yes. Jesus Christ being the prime example. The animal sacrifices another.

can Jesus be a Savior to someone who does not need saving?

No.

Do those 'innocent' children who die need a savior?

A complex (assumptive) question. Assumes children (new-borns to stay on topic) to be are innocent. But yes, all who die need a savior in order not to perish.

 

[chessman]

No, Adam.

Adam's not mentioned in the Text, but his conception and mother are.

 

[Cygnus]

Adam's not mentioned in the Text, but his conception and mother are.

Adam doesn't have to be mentioned.

 

[Cygnus]

Do those 'innocent' children who die need a savior?

Of course. Every human needs a savior.
Innocent in that they have not actually sinned as of yet.
Guilty of their sin in Adam.

Based on King Davids child in 2nd Samuel ...David said “I shall go to him”...sounds like David has confidence of meeting him when he died. This indicates babies can be saved.
Somehow God can apply the saving benefits of the blood of Christ to babies.

 

[stovebolts]

If you can't understand our sin nature was a result of the fall....then I'm done with you on this topic.
Basic christianity 101.

Haha, now then, let's not be childish. No need for you yo take your ball and go home lol.

Btw, I understand perfectly what your saying. It's pretty simplistic actually.

Your saying that basic Christianity 101 states that the sin nature was the result of the fall.

However, that isn't what scripture tells and I have posted the verses that show such. What I find odd is how you insist with you unsupported view and refuse to engage directly with the scriptures.

Again, as far as the definition you posted, it sounds like free will. Hey, just saying.

What I also find odd is how you find it a mystery and have to guess why David believes he will see his son again.

I'll give you a hint. It's found within the Torah, which is the first 5 books of the bible which were written by Moses. I suggest you spend some time in study in this area. And don't be afraid to use Jewish resources. Chabad.org is an excellent resources.

Take care.

 

[Nathan]

Yes. Jesus Christ being the prime example. The animal sacrifices another.

2Co 5:21
For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Jesus only died because He had sin put on Him.

So, do you have another example of death that comes from not having any sin? I do not think we can equate ourselves with animals.

If an infant dies, and goes to be with the Lord, is Jesus their Savior?

If so, what did He save them from?

Why did they need saving from it?

 

[Cygnus]

Your saying that basic Christianity 101 states that the sin nature was the result of the fall.

Yes, Romans 5 is clear about that.

 

[stovebolts]

Hmmmmm, can Jesus be a Savior to someone who does not need saving? Do those 'innocent' children who die need a savior?

Hmmmmmm, does death happen to that which contains no sin?

Death happens to everything.... birds, dogs, grass, trees. Everything dies.

Are you saying the dogs, birds, trees and flowers sin?

Be careful of the questions you ask...

 

[stovebolts]

Yes, Romans 5 is clear about that.

Please share so we can discuss

 

[Nathan]

Death happens to everything.... birds, dogs, grass, trees. Everything dies.

Are you saying the dogs, birds, trees and flowers sin?

Be careful of the questions you ask...

So did God create them to die? Why do they die?

 

[Cygnus]

If an infant dies, and goes to be with the Lord, is Jesus their Savior?

If so, what did He save them from?

Why did they need saving from it?

Adams sin. Adam was our representative in the garden just as Jesus was our representative on the cross. At the time of the fall the entire human race was in Adam.

 

[Nathan]

A complex (assumptive) question. Assumes children (new-borns to stay on topic) to be are innocent. But yes, all who die need a savior in order not to perish.

It is assumptive.

To the point though, why will they perish after they die? "Assuming" they have never sinned that is.

 

[Cygnus]

Please share so we can discuss

Romans 5:12. Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned.
1 Cor 15:21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Basic christianity 101.

 

[Cygnus]

Death happens to everything.... birds, dogs, grass, trees. Everything dies.

Are you saying the dogs, birds, trees and flowers sin?

Be careful of the questions you ask...

Romans 8:21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22 We know thatthe whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until the present time. 2

 

[chessman]

Adam doesn't have to be mentioned.

In a Text that's pointed to as proof (evidence) that newborns inherit a sin nature tracing back to Adam, Adam doesn't need to be mentioned???

Don't you find that odd? I do.

 

[Cygnus]

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies.

Thoughts?

 

[Cygnus]

In a Text that's pointed to as proof (evidence) that newborns inherit a sin nature tracing back to Adam, Adam doesn't need to be mentioned???

Don't you find that odd? I do.

I don't. Perhaps if we didn't have the NT it might be odd.

 

[stovebolts]

Romans 5:12. Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned.
1 Cor 15:21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Basic christianity 101.

Yup, it is established that sin entered the world through Adam, and it has been established that death is the result of that sin. This scenario is referred to as the Fall. To this, I believe we are in agreement.

However, you still have not addressed my concern on exactly What the sin nature is. You say it is from the Fall, and scripture is clear on the fact that sin entered the world at the point of willful disobedience. However, when asked what the sin nature was, you said that it was ( and I will paraphrase) doing something against Gods will.
My reply was, isn't that exactly what Adam did?
Your answer should have been yes, and we could have moved on to, Was Adam created with a sin nature. Logically. You would have had to also say yes.
Do you now see the point I am driving?

 

[stovebolts]

I don't. Perhaps if we didn't have the NT it might be odd.

Paul tells Timothy to study the scriptures.... the NT had not been penned nor canonized when Paul wrote that. This should give you insight yo what Paul thought was beneficial to us.