Are we born condemned with Adams sin...or innocent at birth?

[stovebolts]

Romans 8:21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22 We know thatthe whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until the present time. 2

Correct, and in the passage I quoted on Genesis 3 states that the ground was cursed due to Adams willful disobedience.
All creation is being reconciled through our savior and Lord Jesus.

 

[Cygnus]

Yup, it is established that sin entered the world through Adam, and it has been established that death is the result of that sin. This scenario is referred to as the Fall. To this, I believe we are in agreement.

However, you still have not addressed my concern on exactly What the sin nature is. You say it is from the Fall, and scripture is clear on the fact that sin entered the world at the point of willful disobedience. However, when asked what the sin nature was, you said that it was ( and I will paraphrase) doing something against Gods will.
My reply was, isn't that exactly what Adam did?
Your answer should have been yes, and we could have moved on to, Was Adam created with a sin nature. Logically. You would have had to also say yes.
Do you now see the point I am driving?

The point you are driving at is not true....Adam logically didn't have a sin nature. The sin nature was a result of the fall.
Having the ability to sin does not equal a sin nature.

 

[Cygnus]

Correct, and in the passage I quoted on Genesis 3 states that the ground was cursed due to Adams willful disobedience.
All creation is being reconciled through our savior and Lord Jesus.

Our sin nature is part of the curse.

 

[Cygnus]

Yup, it is established that sin entered the world through Adam, and it has been established that death is the result of that sin. This scenario is referred to as the Fall. To this, I believe we are in agreement.

However, you still have not addressed my concern on exactly What the sin nature is. You say it is from the Fall, and scripture is clear on the fact that sin entered the world at the point of willful disobedience. However, when asked what the sin nature was, you said that it was ( and I will paraphrase) doing something against Gods will.
My reply was, isn't that exactly what Adam did?
Your answer should have been yes, and we could have moved on to, Was Adam created with a sin nature. Logically. You would have had to also say yes.
Do you now see the point I am driving?

The sin nature is that aspect in man that makes him rebellious against God. When we speak of the sin nature, we refer to the fact that we have a natural inclination to sin; given the choice to do God’s will or our own, we will naturally choose to do our own thing.
Would you like to read more about it? Click here.

 

[stovebolts]

The sin nature is that aspect in man that makes him rebellious against God. When we speak of the sin nature, we refer to the fact that we have a natural inclination to sin; given the choice to do God’s will or our own, we will naturally choose to do our own thing.
Would you like to read more about it? Click here.

Are you even listening to yourself?
Adam naturally did his own thing. God clearly told Adam what NOT to do, and Adam "did his own things.
Let's set aside the notion and doctrine of having a sin nature for just a moment ok.

What caused Adam to rebel against God by willfully disobeying him pre Fall?

 

[stovebolts]

Our sin nature is part of the curse.

Let's just ignore that for a moment ok.

 

[Cygnus]

Are you even listening to yourself?
Adam naturally did his own thing. God clearly told Adam what NOT to do, and Adam "did his own things.
Let's set aside the notion and doctrine of having a sin nature for just a moment ok.

What caused Adam to rebel against God by willfully disobeying him pre Fall?

What cause Adam to disobey? Not a sin nature. That was received when Adam finally sinned.

There is a lot of speculation about what actually caused Adam to sin. What ever that reason was, Adam was disobedient.
Adam, like the angels were created pure. They were also created with the ability to sin. Some of the angels choose to sin while others didn't. Unfortunately Adam choose to sin.....when Adam sinned, Adam and all his progeny fell.

 

[stovebolts]

What cause Adam to disobey? Not a sin nature. That was received when Adam finally sinned.

There is a lot of speculation about what actually caused Adam to sin. What ever that reason was, Adam was disobedient.
Adam, like the angels were created pure. They were also created with the ability to sin. Some of the angels choose to sin while others didn't. Unfortunately Adam choose to sin.....when Adam sinned, Adam and all his progeny fell.

If it wasn't a sin nature that caused Adam to sin, then your explanation of what a sin nature is isn't correct because Adam did exactly as you described the sin nature pre Fall.

Tell ya what, I'll agree on what you call the sin nature, but by doing so you need to explain to me from scriptures what drove Adam to willfully disobey God and eat of the forbidden fruit before sin entered the world.

Again, what you are calling the sin nature sounds an awful lot like freewill.

Btw, James tells us that it is our own desires that cause us to sin, and when we give into those desires, sin matures which leads to death.

If we were to speculate, what do you think Adams desire might have been?

 

[Cygnus]

If it wasn't a sin nature that caused Adam to sin, then your explanation of what a sin nature is isn't correct because Adam did exactly as you described the sin nature pre Fall.

A sin nature says you will and do sin. We are sinners in need of salvation because we sin.

God would not create Adam with a corrupted sin nature. Adam was made very good.
Once gain, having the ability to sin is NOT a sin nature.

Did you visit my link in post 64?

 

[stovebolts]

A sin nature says you will and do sin. We are sinners in need of salvation because we sin.

God would not create Adam with a corrupted sin nature. Adam was made very good.
Once gain, having the ability to sin is NOT a sin nature.

Did you visit my link in post 64?

No, I did not visit your link. I have studied this topic ad nausium in the past and the last site you posted is ripe with calvinestic systematic theology which I do not fully ascribe to.

What you teach is doctrines based on a systematic way of thinking that takes much liberty with the plain meaning of the text. This is why you can't answer direct questions within the context of the passages presented which then causes you to try and side step the passages directly with more explanations of why your doctrine is correct.

I ascribe to good exegesis, and then redaction. In other words, understand the passage within its context and then link related passages that resonate. Systematic theology doesn't spend the time in exegesis to produce good redaction.

 

[Nathan]

StoveBolts

So do you believe we are innocent at birth? If so, then do children who die at birth need a Savior?

 

[stovebolts]

StoveBolts

So do you believe we are innocent at birth? If so, then do children who die at birth need a Savior?

I believe every human as well as the world and its entire content needs a savior.
I believe we are innocent of sin at birth, for an infant has committed no sin. If you believe a newborn has sinned, please show me chapter and verse which accuses them.

For the record, Paul affirms the sin nature, so having a sin nature is not something I deny just so we are clear.

What I am opposed to is the doctrine of the sin nature that is attempting to be promoted very poorly.

 

[Nathan]

I believe every human as well as the world and its entire content needs a savior.
I believe we are innocent of sin at birth, for an infant has committed no sin. If you believe a newborn has sinned, please show me chapter and verse which accuses them.

For the record, Paul affirms the sin nature, so having a sin nature is not something I deny just so we are clear.

What I am opposed to is the doctrine of the sin nature that is attempting to be promoted very poorly.

I am just trying to understand your logic is all. I do not believe a newborn has sinned per say.

So why would a newborn need a Savior?

 

[stovebolts]

I am just trying to understand your logic is all. I do not believe a newborn has sinned per say.

So why would a newborn need a Savior?

According to the Genesis account, the repercussion to Adams sin is death. As a result, infants can die while still in the womb or shortly after birth.
Jesus is the resurection.... in Him there is eternal life.

 

[Seabass]

Which is exactly what happened.

Cannot be what happened for Paul said people who sinned unlike Adam.

Don't you know that the entire human race was within Adam in seed form? Because of that when Adam sinned, we all sinned in him?
1 Cor 15:22 informs us we were all in Adam.......For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

One person does not sin for another, "the soul that sinneth it shall die"

Again, since sin is transgression of the law and no transgression takes place when one is conceived, then one is not a sinner.

 

[Seabass]

I said the sin nature was a result of the fall.

Then Christ would have been born with sin/sin nature:

Hebrews 4:15 "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are...


Hebrews 2:17 "Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, ...
Philippians 2:7 "....and was made in the likeness of men:..."

 

[Cygnus]

Cannot be what happened for Paul said people who sinned unlike Adam.



One person does not sin for another, "the soul that sinneth it shall die"

Again, since sin is transgression of the law and no transgression takes place when one is conceived, then one is not a sinner.

You're applying your faulty logic to scripture. Scripture tells us in Adam all sin.

1st Cor 15:21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

 

[Cygnus]

Then Christ would have been born with sin/sin nature:

God can't be born with a sin nature. You do agree that Jesus is God?

 

[stovebolts]

The point you are driving at is not true....Adam logically didn't have a sin nature. The sin nature was a result of the fall.
Having the ability to sin does not equal a sin nature.

You continue to repeat the same words.
So, if what you say is true, then Adam was created with the ability to sin, and at the point he sinned, his very nature changed to a sin nature.

That very sin nature is inherited through Adam to every human that was, is and will be on this planet.

Have I got you right?

 

[Nathan]

According to the Genesis account, the repercussion to Adams sin is death. As a result, infants can die while still in the womb or shortly after birth.
Jesus is the resurection.... in Him there is eternal life.

So do infants have to 'pay the price' for sins they have not committed?

What specifically do they need saving from? A "Savior" implies one needs to be "saved" correct?