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Are we born condemned with Adams sin...or innocent at birth?

Are we born condemned...or innocent?


  • Total voters
    13
A sin nature says you will and do sin. ?

And means that both conditions must be met in order for the statement to be true.

Thus, according to your logic one will sin and has sinned in order to qualify to have a sin nature.

If one will sin, it means they have the propensity to sin. This requires foresight to an action that has not yet taken place.

Having the propensity to sin does not mean sin has occurred. One can have the propensity to lie, yet tells the truth. One may have the propensity to steal, but instead works and gives to those in need.

According to your logic, the burden of proof is on you. Please tell us what sin a newborn child who passes away at the moment of birth is guilty of.

If you cannot prove the exact sin, your case will be dismissed with no grounds.
 
So do infants have to 'pay the price' for sins they have not committed?

What specifically do they need saving from? A "Savior" implies one needs to be "saved" correct?
If somebody sins against you, do you not pay the price for their sin?
Example, if somebody steals all your money and you do not have your rent, nor food. Do you not suffer for their sins?

A good Samaritan saves you from the circumstance you are in, regardless of how you got there.

Can you tell me the sin of the ground that it would be cursed? Did the ground deserve to be cursed?
 
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Then Christ would have been born with sin/sin nature:

Hebrews 4:15 "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are...


Hebrews 2:17 "Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, ...
Philippians 2:7 "....and was made in the likeness of men:..."

He was born from a virgin, not having an earthly father, specifically because the 'nature' to sin is passed through the male 'seed'. The woman was deceived, Adam chose to sin. Christ did not have the 'nature' to sin simply because He did not have an earthly(biological) father.

Rom 5:12-18
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
 
If somebody sins against you, do you not pay the price for their sin?
Example, if somebody steals all your money and you do not have your rent, nor food. Do you not suffer for their sins?

No, I may suffer the result of what their sin did - but I will not suffer the cost of their sin.

Think of it this way - I may 'loose' the money I had, but I cannot be sentenced to jail for their theft.

Death is the sentence of sin alone, not just a coincidence. Adam was not told that he would die unless he ate the fruit. Eating the fruit is what brought the sentence of death - his death. Romans states very clearly that death comes through sin. Where there is no sin, there is no death.

Ezekiel 18 is very clear about how sin and death are connected. I think people stumble in understanding what 'sin' is. Once that is understood, then it is clear how an infant - who has neither chose good or evil - has the sin nature, having death as a sentence, and needs a Savior.
 
Jesus only died because He had sin put on Him.
Yes, other's sins, not His own (yet He died). But He lived 30+ years without sinning and then voluntary died for others sins at the appointed time. And I'm talking about literal sins. Real actual sins, to include those of David's mother:

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

So, do you have another example of death that comes from not having any sin? I do not think we can equate ourselves with animals.
Again, Jesus is the prime example. Why limit your question to humans, even though animals and heaven/earth are examples of death w/o sin (that provide an answer to your original question)?

If an infant dies, and goes to be with the Lord, is Jesus their Savior?
Yes.

If so, what did He save them from?
The destruction of their souls.

Why did they need saving from it?
Because their earthly mothers and fathers have no way to sustain their souls. But God does.

Psalm 109:31 For He stands at the right hand of the needy, To save him from those who judge his soul.
 
According to your logic, the burden of proof is on you. Please tell us what sin a newborn child who passes away at the moment of birth is guilty of.

I've shown you several times...Adams sin who we are all in.
I also believe God applies the blood of Christ to infants who die. The Bible doesn't specifically touch that subject.
 
Again, Jesus is the prime example. Why limit your question to humans, even though animals and heaven/earth are examples of death w/o sin (that provide an answer to your original question)?
We limit it to humans because animals will not face the eternal sentence of death. They are simply complex 'machines' God created - they were not created like humans. When an animal dies, that is it - no judgement - no need for a Savior.

The destruction of their souls.
Why would an infant, who has no sin, have their soul destroyed?

Is the destruction of the soul a sentence for sin?
 
He was born from a virgin, not having an earthly father, specifically because the 'nature' to sin is passed through the male 'seed'. The woman was deceived, Adam chose to sin. Christ did not have the 'nature' to sin simply because He did not have an earthly(biological) father.

Rom 5:12-18
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

--But no verse teaches original sin much less original sin is passed though the father.

--A supposed proof text for original sin, Psa 51:5, only mentions the mother. If David was born a sinner then he must have gotten it thru his mother.

--if Christ was not born with sin/sin nature, then those verses that I cited would be false.

--man is not born with a sin nature Genesis 4:7

--I dealt with the context of Romans 5 back in post #13 of this thread:

2) Romans 5:14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come."
If all men inherit Adam's sin, then all would "fall" due to the exact same sin of Adam, but Paul here speaks of those that "fell" by sinning a sin different from Adam's. Therefore people are sinners not passively just by being born inheriting Adam's sin but are sinner for choosing to sin. In verse 12 Paul says " for that all have sinned" with "have sinned" showing personal culpability in the sinning.

3)
Romans 5:18a Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;
Romans 5:18b even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

If Rom 5:18a proves all men are unconditionally born sinners due to Adam, then it is also true that same all men will unconditionally be justified due to Christ's righteousness and you are pushing Universalism.

Yet Paul did NOT say 'all men' are UNCONDITIONALLY made sinners no more than he said "all men" will UNCONDITIONALLY be justified. Paul points out in Romans 5:1-2 men are CONDITIONALLY made righteous/justified for having faith and in verse 12 men are CONDITIONALLY made sinners for choosing to sin. Paul's point in this context of Romans 5:18,19 is that all who have been effected by sin since sin entered the world thru Adam, Christ has a remedy for them brought about by His obedience in going to the cross. So not only can original sin NOT be found here, it also refutes the idea of limited atonement.
 
Hmmmmmm, does death happen to that which contains no sin?
Really good question.
Here's a thought:
1Co 15:20-22 (NKJV)
But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.


Adam's sin brought death to all mankind including infants who have not yet developed the intellectual capacity to sin or to do good.
So, it is not necessary for an infant to sin in order to be subject to death.
Just being a descendant of Adam makes an infant subject to death.
 
But no verse teaches original sin much less original sin is passed though the father.

I still think it comes down to understanding what sin is. I do not think that 'original sin' is passed through the father.

The propensity, namely the desire, to sin is passed down through the father. We have to remember, it was Adam that God had given the commandment to, and it was Adam who was not deceived.

Rom 5:18
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.


Condemnation - κατάκριμα katákrima, kat-ak'-ree-mah; from G2632; an adverse sentence (the verdict):—condemnation.

The 'verdict' that came from Adams sin, is that all of his seed would also be judged. It is impossible to escape that judgement. Therefore, even infants will be judged because they are from Adam's seed.

We are not going to be judged on what Adam did, but rather on what we have done. Therefore, we need a Savior who will save us from that sentence.

Problem is, it is impossible to escape this through human deeds - or lack of sin(like infants). Why? Because from the moment we take our first breath we have the propensity to sin. No one has to teach someone how to sin. It is coded in our DNA - thanks to Adam. Therefore, infants need a Savior because they too have the propensity to sin - even if they have not chose to do so yet.

God is just. And being just, He cannot sentence someone to destruction who has not done anything to receive it. Here is the point - while an infant has not chose to sin yet, their DNA is set to make them desire it, and therefore they by virtue of reception are guilty and have to be saved from that propensity to sin.

This is why Jesus was manifested - to destroy the works of the devil.
 
Why would an infant, who has no sin, have their soul destroyed?
They will not. That's my point.

What Scripture teaches that an infant (or ore-born) will have their souls destroyed? None, that I am aware of. And it ain't Ps 51:5, that's for sure.

Is the destruction of the soul a sentence for sin?
A person's personal unforgiven sins, yes.

Is the destruction of an infant's soul a sentence for Adam's sins, is the question of the OP.

And I've not seen any passages that support that notion.

What Scripture teaches that infants/pre-born; 1) sin 2) have their souls destroyed as a result of either their sin or Adam's for that matter.
 
The propensity, namely the desire, to sin is passed down through the father. We have to remember, it was Adam that God had given the commandment to, and it was Adam who was not deceived.
Think "bondage". Adam 'sold' us into slavery to sin.

Illustration - children born into slavery did not choose to be born into it, but since they are born into it they become the property of the slave owner.
 
They will not. That's my point.

What Scripture teaches that an infant (or ore-born) will have their souls destroyed? None, that I am aware of. And it ain't Ps 51:5, that's for sure.

So do they need a Savior?

Heb 9:27
And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,
 
So do they need a Savior?

Heb 9:27
And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

Asked and answered (twice as I recall).

That verse of Scripture doesn't say anything about how infants fair through the judgment. My question was "What Scripture teaches that an infant (or pre-born) will have their souls destroyed?"
 
Well, the NT wasn't the verse you pointed to support your position that infants (or pre-borns for that matter) are sinful or have condemnation from Adam's sin.

Often the NT can be used to shine a light on what the OT is saying.
 
What Scripture teaches that infants/pre-born; 1) sin 2) have their souls destroyed as a result of either their sin or Adam's for that matter.
There are no passages that teach it.

I believe infants/young ones are 'saved' in Christ. This is where God's sovereignty comes into play.

They too will stand before God and be judged. However, since they had never chose to do wrong - God will judge them based on that. Because Christ died to set all men free from slavery, they too will be free from it.
 
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