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Are we born condemned with Adams sin...or innocent at birth?

Are we born condemned...or innocent?

  • Total voters
    13
StoveBolts said:
So you agree that the ground was cursed due to Adams sin, although the ground had done nothing wrong.

Does that seem fair or just to you?
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StoveBolts said:
Of course it cares... why else does it groan?

Now, answer the question.
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I did answer the question. It is neither unfair nor fair, it is neither unjust or just. It was God's, and He gave it to Adam to tend and keep. Adam chose to disobey, so God chose to allow Adam to have what he chose.

Creation is a machine. It will ALL be destroyed, and ALL things will be made new. Creation as we know it will cease to exist.

Mar 11:12-14
On the following day, when they came from Bethany, he was hungry. And seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to see if he could find anything on it. When he came to it, he found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs. And he said to it, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard it.

Was that fair or just what He did?
 
chessman said:
Yes they need a Savior. And have one.


I have no idea what gave you that impression. I didn't say they didn't need a Savior. I say infants/pre-borns don't sin. And neither do animals. Yet animals need a Savior too, if they are gonna live forever.

And I'm saying (subject to correction) that Ps 51:5 doesn't say David sinned on the night of his conception. It seems to me to be saying his mother and father did (not Him).
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Ok, so, if infants need a Savior, so that they will live forever - why would they not live forever? What causes them to need a Savior so that they will not eternally be dead?
 
Seabass said:
If other men were born with it, so was Christ else those verses are not true. It cannot be true that man is born with a sin/sin nature and at the same time Christ was made like men, had the same weakness, infirmities and temptations as man yet not born with a sin nature.

Christ could never honestly claim He was made like other humans, that He knew what it would be like to be a real human in the flesh and what humans have to deal with if all other men were born with and had to contend with a sin nature and He did not.
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Was Christ born from an earthly father?

Does the fact He did not have an earthly father contradict the verses you posted?

I'm saying we should take passages in their context. We know for a fact that 'sin' passes on through the male seed. Romans is clear on this.

Rom 5:12
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned
 
Nathan said:
I did answer the question. It is neither unfair nor fair, it is neither unjust or just. It was God's, and He gave it to Adam to tend and keep. Adam chose to disobey, so God chose to allow Adam to have what he chose.

Creation is a machine. It will ALL be destroyed, and ALL things will be made new. Creation as we know it will cease to exist.

Mar 11:12-14
On the following day, when they came from Bethany, he was hungry. And seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to see if he could find anything on it. When he came to it, he found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs. And he said to it, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard it.

Was that fair or just what He did?
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Considering the fig tree appeared to have fruit, yet had none then yes, it was fair that it be removed. I assume you understand the deeper teachings on this.

As far as the earth being a mere machine, how is it that this machine groans for the day of redemption? This earth is very much alive, and it is our responsibility to care for it, and not exploit it. In return, our very sustenance comes from this world. Without food, we die. Without water, we die. Without oxygen, we die. Just as Adam was told to tend the garden, we too are to tend this earth.

And so we have yet another difference on how we view scripture...

And just like everything on this earth will be made new one day, we too will be made new.
 
Cygnus said:
What was that sin mom and dad did?
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You'd have to go to Jewish Midrashim (non-Biblical history and teachings) for the details of what David was referring to in that verse (and other verses too). But, suffice it to say, they did sin that night and on previous nights/days too. In fact all people do (except Christ), once they know right from wrong, people choose wrong. But the pre-born David on that night, umm not so much.
 
Nathan said:
Jeff, if this is too close for you then by all means I am not going to continue.

Children are 'saved' in Christ because He is the fulfillment of the promise God made from Eve on down through the generations. David knew this. David knew that God was salvation. David knew that God was just, and He would not sentence a soul to eternal death without the soul choosing it.

David knew that salvation was from God, and from God alone - not based on what man does or does not do.

Psa 51:7-12
Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
Let me hear joy and gladness;
let the bones that you have broken rejoice.
Hide your face from my sins,
and blot out all my iniquities.
Create in me a clean heart, O God,
and renew a right spirit within me.
Cast me not away from your presence,
and take not your Holy Spirit from me.
Restore to me the joy of your salvation,
and uphold me with a willing spirit.

David knew he would see his son because he knew Christ was the Savior of the world. David knew that his sin resulted in the death of his son - David knew that mankind is in slavery to sin - born that way - and needs a Savior - a deliverer.
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I am very comfortable talking about my deceased children. I know where they both are.

But it is just as I have supposed. You talk doctrines, yet you cannot produce scripture to validate your point of view.

If your child died and all you had was the old Testiment, you would seek diligently for answers. Will you not put in a portion of the effort David did to see what the bible has to directly say on the matter?

Honestly, I don't think you've put your time into the scriptures on this matter because you've never had to... And it shows.
 
chessman said:
You'd have to go to Jewish Midrashim (non-Biblical history and teachings) for the details of what David was referring to in thst verse and others. But, suffice it to say, they did sin that night and on previous nights/days too. In fact all people do (except Christ), once they know right from wrong, people choose wrong. But the pre-born David on that night, umm not so much.
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Gills commentary
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity,.... This cannot be understood of any personal iniquity of his immediate parents; since this respects his wonderful formation in the womb, in which both he and they were wholly passive, as the word here used is of that form; and is the amazing work of God himself, so much admired by the psalmist, Psalm 139:13; and cannot design any sinfulness then infused into him by his Maker, seeing God cannot be the author of sin; but of original sin and corruption, derived to him by natural generation: and the sense is, that as soon as ever the mass of human nature was shaped and quickened, or as soon as soul and body were united together, sin was in him, and he was in sin, or became a sinful creature;
 
StoveBolts said:
Considering the fig tree appeared to have fruit, yet had none then yes, it was fair that it be removed. I assume you understand the deeper teachings on this.

As far as the earth being a mere machine, how is it that this machine groans for the day of redemption? This earth is very much alive, and it is our responsibility to care for it, and not exploit it. In return, our very sustenance comes from this world. Without food, we die. Without water, we die. Without oxygen, we die. Just as Adam was told to tend the garden, we too are to tend this earth.

And so we have yet another difference on how we view scripture...

And just like everything on this earth will be made new one day, we too will be made new.
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I do understand the deeper meaning of it, but the point is Jesus knew it was not the season for fruit - He knew there would be no figs on it - yet He told it that it would never have fruit again. The tree neither did right nor wrong - it was neither unfair or fair.

We need to understand the differences between humans and the rest of creation is all I am saying. Humans are distinct as in they continue past this 'physical' death/life. Nothing else in creation continues on. Once it is dead, it is dead.
 
StoveBolts said:
I am very comfortable talking about my deceased children. I know where they both are.

But it is just as I have supposed. You talk doctrines, yet you cannot produce scripture to validate your point of view.

If your child died and all you had was the old Testiment, you would seek diligently for answers. Will you not put in a portion of the effort David did to see what the bible has to directly say on the matter?

Honestly, I don't think you've put your time into the scriptures on this matter because you've never had to... And it shows.
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I'm going to be very frank with you - you do not have any right to say what I would do or not do. I am not attacking you, I would appreciate it if you did the same. You do not know my life history.

I know exactly what the Scriptures say about death, sin, and the judgement. You came in on a conversation I was having with someone else and started to try and draw a different conclusion from it.
 
Nathan said:
I do understand the deeper meaning of it, but the point is Jesus knew it was not the season for fruit - He knew there would be no figs on it - yet He told it that it would never have fruit again. The tree neither did right nor wrong - it was neither unfair or fair.

We need to understand the differences between humans and the rest of creation is all I am saying. Humans are distinct as in they continue past this 'physical' death/life. Nothing else in creation continues on. Once it is dead, it is dead.
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I believe everything in scripture has it's intended meaning and then from there are items to ponder. We are both pondering at the moment so making issue of the fig tree in my mind becomes a disputable matter.

And yes, like yourself I do believe we are different than the rest of creation. So you see, we do agree in areas. Suffice it to say we agree in more areas than we disagree.
 
Nathan said:
I'm going to be very frank with you - you do not have any right to say what I would do or not do. I am not attacking you, I would appreciate it if you did the same. You do not know my life history.

I know exactly what the Scriptures say about death, sin, and the judgement. You came in on a conversation I was having with someone else and started to try and draw a different conclusion from it.
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Fair enough. And you are correct, it was rude of me to be so forceful with you. Please accept my apologies and I will work at being more considerate of you.

My frustration stems because I see a lot of posturing and dogma, and very little discussion taking place about the actual scriptures that have been posted.

My experience led me to search deep on what the OT had to say about infant mortality and it led me to the understanding of the age of accountability which we can add a new thread on if needed, but it is referenced by way of story in Deuteronomy 1:39.
 
Cygnus said:
This cannot be understood of any personal iniquity of his immediate parents; since this respects his wonderful formation in the womb
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I realize you are not John Gill and he's not here to ask, but in your opinion, why do you understand David received Adam's personal iniquity in the womb but yet find it not understandable that he was brought forth in the sin of his mother at his conception?

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me. ​

How come the verse doesn't say I was brought forth in sin from Adam?
 
im getting lost in this discussion. isn't the idea that --all-- human beings are born hell bound and in need of Christ part of Christian Doctrine 101?
 
Best I can piece together so far :lol

God gave the 1st Law to Adam/Humans Genesis 2:16-17
Which we proceeded to break, then we Rinse & Repeat.
Why would infants need a Savior/Saviour from the Serpent or the Law? Genesis 3:4-5
If A Savior Payed the Cost of the Judgement against Adam/Humans from His own death/resurrection forward
& released those held captive Matthew 27:51-53
from the Law Judgment & Sentence Genesis 3:16
that was handed down to Adam/Humans Genesis 3:17-24
& freed the innocent with No Knowledge of Good/Evil? Matthew 18:10 Deuteronomy 1:39
& then to free the future innocent for Eternal Life (Name in the Book of Life)? Revelation 21:27
 
chessman said:
And I'm saying (subject to correction) that Ps 51:5 doesn't say David sinned on the night of his conception. It seems to me to be saying his mother and father did (not Him).
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yeah
It doesn't say that either.
Essentially, it says we are all born with a proclivity to sin and will do so sooner than later unless we die before we get a chance.
 
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