Are we born with a sin nature?

[for_his_glory]

Again and again the only failure involved is a nearly complete and utter failure in this entire 'thread' to factor in the devil into the equations of sin and to view them and SIN as 'internal' matters.

Sometimes we can get so caught up in our arguments when a thread gets lengthy that we lose sight of what was even stated in the OP so for you smaller I will give it again. The only failure is some not reading what is actually written, but jump to their own conclusions by a logical thinking as they throw a bunch of scripture together to prove their point, but yet never examine the whole of a chapter to understand the one verse they choose to support themselves with. So there is no complete and utter failure of factoring the devil in the equation as you said there was. Here are the first to paragraphs of my OP.

We all have a sin nature as we have all been conceived and born into a sinful world by that of Satan's deceit. IE: the fall of Adam and Eve being deceived by Satan using the serpent as his vessel, Genesis 3:1-15. Like Adam and Eve we are created and born without sin as God created each of us and can not even look upon sin so why would God create us sinful, John 9:31; Romans 8:7,8: Mark 15:34 (God did not forsake his son on the cross, but had to look away as Jesus was taking all our sin upon himself.

Adam and Eve were created sinless, but placed into a sinful world because of Satan being cast down to the ground and became sin to the nations before that of God creating Adam, Isaiah 14:12-15; Ezekiel 28:13-17. They lost sight of God for a temporary moment and paid the penalty of their sin by God casting them out of the garden and placing them into a sinful world. There is nowhere in scripture that actually says Adam or Eve repented and asked for forgiveness, but we do see that God provided for them as he made them clothing from animals to cover their shame and we can correlate that as the first animal sacrifice for the atonement of sin (shame) leading up to that of Jesus being the final sacrifice for sin as God clothes us in His righteousness.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Good morning Ernest, BornAgain. I hope you guys are having a good day. I say that because it seems rare that we talk with each other. So, I like to be a little personal.

You are absolutely correct in your statement. After Adam and in Adam, man contains a sin nature. That explains why we sin. Not only was man subjected to the consequences of Adam's sin, the whole of nature was subjected to it. The little ones may not have done evil or good, so suppose the question is what qualifies a person to go to Heaven. I believe the qualification is righteousness. You not only have to be without sin, you have to be righteous. People who are not able to do anything right due to age, or mental capacity, still don't qualify for Heaven because they are not righteous. So, I believe that babies and mentally disabled persons go to heaven because God imputes to them the righteousness of Jesus. I think it would be common sense that if a person doesn't have the ability to do what God commands, that God would be more than fair on their behalf. Considering the mountain of sin we do in light of God's forgiveness, it would be easy to see that God would be gracious to those who don't have the ability or the opportunity to sin. Every man born of Adam needs the blood of Jesus Christ to wash away that which is sinful, and be granted the righteousness of Jesus. Jesus was our representative, and there is no other way to the Father accept through Him.

Romans 8:20-21

New King James Version (NKJV)

20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.


- Davies

Again, if man is created with a sin nature that puts all blame and culpability upon God and man is not accountable for his own sins. The sins I commit I can rightly and justly blame God for the way He created me. Since God did not creat man with a sin nature and man is a sinner becasue he chooses to sin then all the blame and culpability is upon man for his own sins. Who was responsible and culpable for the one talent man burying his talent; himself or God?

From Rom 8:20 a bondage of corruption came upon creation as a consequence of man's sins. God did not create the creation corrupt...Gen 1:31 "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good." Creation was created very good and not corrupt.


Infants are neither righteous or unrighteous for they have done no good or evil to be either, Rom 9:11. There is no verse anywhere that calls infants unrighteous or righteous. There is no verse that says God imputes righteous or unrighteousness to infants. They are neutral, innocent and pure.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

• Romans 8:20 "For the creature was made subject to vanity, NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope."

Creation was made VERY GOOD, Gen 1:31 and not corrupt as you claim. Creation came under a bondage of corruption as a consequence of man sinning.

• Jeremiah 18:4 "And the vessel that he made of clay was MARRED IN THE HAND OF THE POTTER: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it."

Again Jer 18:6 "O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay [is] in the potter's hand, so [are] ye in mine hand, O house of Israel."

And how did God deal with Israel and other nations? In some random, unconditional way? No.

Jer 18:8,10 "If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them."

How God fashioned nations was conditional upon whether or not that nation obeyed God by repenting or disobeyed by not repenting.

2 TIm 2:21 "If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, [and] prepared unto every good work. "

Is a man unconditionlly made into a vessel of honor? No, for man must first condtionally purge himself of these sins.



You have provided no evidence from hjer 18 or anywhere else God unconditionally fashions man randomly into vessels of honor or dishonor.

Psalms 51:5 "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and IN SIN did my mother conceive me."

David does NOT say in Psa 51:5 that he was born a sinner for that idea is assumed into the verse. Compare Psa 51:5 with Psa 22:10 "I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou [art] my God from my mother's belly."

No one here has yet to identify what sin the newly conceived has committed that would make it a sinner 1 Jn 3:4 sin is transgression of the law and the newly conceived are not able to transgress the law, Rom 9:11 the unborn have done neither good or evil.

Romans 7:18 "For I know that in me (that is, IN MY FLESH,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."

Paul does not say he was born with no good thing dwelling in him. Again that idea is being assumed in to the verse.

Rom 7:8,9 sin was dead to Paul when he was an infant and sin did not spring up in him till later in his life when he learned right from wrong (reached and age of acountability).

1 Corinthians 15:50 "Now this I say, brethren, that FLESH AND BLOOD cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

This verse say absolutely nothing about man being created corrupt, sinful.

Romans 8:8 "So then they that are in THE FLESH cannot please God."

Again, this verse say absolutely nothing about man being created corrupt, sinful.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Again and again the only failure involved is a nearly complete and utter failure in this entire 'thread' to factor in the devil into the equations of sin and to view them and SIN as 'internal' matters.

Even provided a GLARING example of a DEVIL being in A CHILD.

There is no way to 'measure' this factor other than to observe a couple of very simple facts about 'sin.'

A. All have sin
B. Sin is in fact 'of the devil.'

We also observed from Matt. 5:28 and other scriptures where SIN and EVIL are in fact 'internal' in originations and not just in the EXTERNAL SIGHT of same.

There is no verse that says devils are in a child. That idea is as unbiblical as it can be. The kingdom of heaven is as little children and the kingdom of heaven is not made up of devils.

Mt 5:28 says absolutely nothing about man being created corrupt, sinner.

Rom 3:9 "What then? are we (jews) better [than they (Gentiles)]? No, in no wise: for we (Jews) have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they (Jew & Gentile) are all under sin;"


"All' in this context represents the two main groups of man kind, Jew and Gentile. There have been Jews that have sinned and Gentiles that have sinned thus all (Jew and Gentile) have sinned. It is not a reference to every single indivdual for the newly conceived are not capable of sinning and Christ did not sin, Phil 2:7 Heb 2:17

Culpable is only a matter of perspective if God Himself provided the CURE in Jesus Christ.

It is not surprising that you can not seem to come to simple grips with some basic observations and instead defend a 'doctrine' that has obviously ZERO ability to grasp the matters put to you.

When you get around to meeting on some factual ground maybe it'll come to you? I am not fond of discussing with blind programming courtesy of trying to uphold doctrines that can not observe and engage with simple facts as delineated prior and herein.

s

If God created me a sinner then God is culpable for the sin I commit. If God created me a homosexual then God is culpable for the way He created me. I can only be the way God made me and therefore I have no choice but to sin if God created me a corrupt sinner. ANd here you are simply trying to come up with some philosophy to get around this problem of how OS and total depravity puts culpability upon God.


I asked someone earlier: who was culpable, accountable, responsible for the one talent man burying his one talent; himself or God?

 

[smaller]

There is no verse that says devils are in a child.

Nah, we certainly don't want to be linking any SIN to the DEVIL now would we EB?

Matthew 17:18
And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.

When you want to have a credible coversation about sin and children let me know.

Far be it from me to show people how to read.

s

 

[smaller]

Sometimes we can get so caught up in our arguments when a thread gets lengthy that we lose sight of what was even stated in the OP so for you smaller I will give it again. The only failure is some not reading what is actually written, but jump to their own conclusions by a logical thinking as they throw a bunch of scripture together to prove their point, but yet never examine the whole of a chapter to understand the one verse they choose to support themselves with. So there is no complete and utter failure of factoring the devil in the equation as you said there was. Here are the first to paragraphs of my OP.

Here are the facts again. There is no 'dispute' available with facts.

Fact: all have sin AND have sinned
Fact: Sin is of the devil

Now, by any measure you chose to lay, those are the facts of SIN.

The fact is, in the case of the second fact, you can stare at the text all the day long and at people, even children, all the day long, and NEVER see 'the devil.'

So as it pertains to SIN, there is as a fact, an unseen operator in the equations.

You are welcome to discount that fact.

We all have a sin nature as we have all been conceived and born into a sinful world by that of Satan's deceit. IE: the fall of Adam and Eve being deceived by Satan using the serpent as his vessel, Genesis 3:1-15. Like Adam and Eve we are created and born without sin as God created each of us and can not even look upon sin so why would God create us sinful, John 9:31; Romans 8:7,8: Mark 15:34 (God did not forsake his son on the cross, but had to look away as Jesus was taking all our sin upon himself.

Your 'bold red' statement does not apply as Paul showed us, this being the again 'factual' conditions of Adam's formation in a DUST body:

1 Cor. 15:
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made -


Now you can lay any fantasy of your sight on Adam. The facts of Adam's condition is clearly WRITTEN above.

Weakness, corruption, dishonor and a natural body is also the factual condition of every person who has ever been born of FLESH MAN.

Adam and Eve were created sinless,

Again, so says you. Jesus also told us that where The Word is sown, SATAN enters the HEART 'immediately.' (Mark 4:15)

And this also happened 'immediately' to ADAM. You are again welcome to see otherwise and apart from the written disclosures of these matters.

All the fanciful imaginative constructs that are put forth in this thread about 'children' and 'sin' are almost entirely void of simple written open facts.

And the bulk of them are 'designed' to avoid confrontations with the obvious other party to sin, that being THE DEVIL, Satan.

That is exactly where those who can not see the facts will be taken. They can not see the obvious because the obvious can NOT BE SEEN.

s

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Really? Have you never read?

Take note of what Paul says:

• Romans 9:20-21: "But who are you, a mere man, to criticize and contradict and answer back to God? Will what is formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus? Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and distinction and honorable use, and another for menial or ignoble and dishonorable use?"

The "sum of God's Word is truth."

• Psalms 119:160 "The sum of Thy word is truth, And to the age is every judgment of Thy righteousness!"

Look at "the sum of Thy Word" in these passages, and your question is answered:

• Romans 9:20-21: "But who are you, a mere man, to criticize and contradict and answer back to God? Will what is formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus? Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and distinction and honorable use, and another for menial or ignoble and dishonorable use?"

• Jeremiah 18:4 "And the vessel that he made of clay was MARRED IN THE HAND OF THE POTTER: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it."

• Romans 8:20 "For the creature was made subject to vanity, NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope."

----It is YOUR theology that is critical of God by trying to put blame and culpablity upon God for man sinning.



---Jer 18:6 "O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay [is] in the potter's hand, so [are] ye in mine hand, O house of Israel."

And how did God the Potter deal with Israel the clay? See Jer 18:8,10.


---Rom 8:20 does not say God created the creation corrupt but the bond of coruption came upon creation as a consequnce of man sinning. The earth was created "very good", Gen 1:31, your theology contradicts this. Eden was a perfect paradise but as a consequence of Adam's sin the ground became cursed (not created cursed, Gen 3:17 ) grown with thorns and nettles. As a consequence of man's sin there was a flood during Noah's time that brought about natural disasters/corruption, the earth was not created with natural disasters, it was created "very good", Gen 1:31. Man corrupted himself with disease and physical death as a consequence of his sinning, he was not created corrupt but created "very good" Gen 1:31. Since man sinned the consequence was a bondage of corruption which now the whole creation groaneth, it is looking for a way out of this corruption and the second coming of Christ will end the groaning of creation. When Christ returns the earth and everything in it will melt with a fervent heat, 2 Pet 3:12 and finite, corruptible fleshly man will put on an immortal, incorruption, 1 Cor 15:50-54 With the earth having burned up and man having put on immortality the groaning will cease.


So we have seen your theology contradict Gen 31:1 that EVERYTHING God created was very good and not corrupt and it contradicts Eccl 7:29 that God made man upright and not corrupt. How do you plan to fix these contradictions?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

We are born with a sin nature. That nature is transferred from the father to his progeny. When Adam fell, we all fell with him. My father has a sin nature. Thus, I have one, as do my children. Look up tradeucianism. That may give you some insight as to why other than Christ and Adam, there has never been any other sinless people walking around.

Eze 18:19,20 sin is not something the son inherits from the father, each person commits and is accountable for his own sins.

Jer 31:30 "But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge."

Eze 18:2-4 "What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge? [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have [occasion] any more to use this proverb in Israel. Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die."

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Nah, we certainly don't want to be linking any SIN to the DEVIL now would we EB?

Matthew 17:18
And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.

When you want to have a credible coversation about sin and children let me know.

Far be it from me to show people how to read.

s

It is about a sickness the boy had and not about any sins he had.

 

[smaller]

It is about a sickness the boy had and not about any sins he had.

Perhaps the writer of Matthew can amend the text to suit your eyes?

I see a devil departing a CHILD. Kinda hard to miss actually. Unless the miss is intentional. Which it would have to be in order to deny the obvious.

The point again about sin is that it is not a matter of just and only MAN or babies.

There are powers UNseen involved with SIN and with MAN, yes, even BABIES.

s

 

[Davies]

Again, if man is created with a sin nature that puts all blame and culpability upon God and man is not accountable for his own sins. The sins I commit I can rightly and justly blame God for the way He created me. Since God did not creat man with a sin nature and man is a sinner becasue he chooses to sin then all the blame and culpability is upon man for his own sins. Who was responsible and culpable for the one talent man burying his talent; himself or God?

From Rom 8:20 a bondage of corruption came upon creation as a consequence of man's sins. God did not create the creation corrupt...Gen 1:31 "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good." Creation was created very good and not corrupt.


Infants are neither righteous or unrighteous for they have done no good or evil to be either, Rom 9:11. There is no verse anywhere that calls infants unrighteous or righteous. There is no verse that says God imputes righteous or unrighteousness to infants. They are neutral, innocent and pure.

Hi Ernest,

I can call you Ernest? When I hear your handle, I think of Ernest P. Worrell. lol. I have a great affection for that character.

I straighten my wig. I would refer you to post #302.

- Davies

 

[for_his_glory]

I have already addressed that in post #263. Here it is again in case you missed it:

• Romans 8:20 "For the creature was made subject to vanity, NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope."

You and I are "the creature". It was our Creator who "made [Adam and us] subject to vanity". Was that the result of Adam's fabled 'free will"? Absolutely not. God knew before He ever created Adam that he (and we) would need a Savior. So we are told, "NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him who subjected the same in hope".


God created Adam "marred in the Potter's hand", and had already made provision for Adam's sins by the sacrifice of His own Son. And this was all done and ordained by God "before the world began".

• 2 Timothy 1:9 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began."
  
  [*]Titus 1:2 "In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began."

The "relation" to the doctrine is to be found in understanding of the Truth of 1 John 2:16.

• 1 John 2:16 "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world."

Eve, and Adam with her, committed all these sins before she ever touched the tree.

• Genesis 3:6 "And when the woman SAW that the tree was good for food [The lust of the flesh], and that it was pleasant to the eyes [lust of the eyes], and a tree to be desired to make one wise [The pride of life], she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."

Before Eve ever touched the tree her "made-subject-to-vanity" nature was already working in her to show her the fact that her Creator had formed her naked and of the corruptible dust. Being made "very good" had no goodness at all by reason of that which excels; "the new man."

• 2 Corinthains 3:10 "For even that which was made glorious [The first "marred " Adam] had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth [The second Adam]."

Eve committed "all sin that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life" before she ever touched the tree of the knowledge of good and evil because she was a "vessel of clay... marred in the Potter's hand" and because she was "made...of the dust of the earth" and because she was "shapen in iniquity" and because she was "made subject to vanity, not [because of any supposed self] willingly but by reason of Him who subjected the same in hope."


Since I have answered your question now twice ....... how about you, as you say, "examine exegetically" the passages you believe were NOT examined exegetically - starting with the six I gave ETB (Ernest) that you quoted above.

Romans 8:20 we are subject to vanity not by God, but by that of Satan's pride as he brought sin into the world even before Adam, but deceived Eve to lead Adam to disobeyed God. We are not marred in the Potter's hand, but made in His image and Gods image is not sinful, but that of love.

2Timothy 1:9 yes Jesus was the promise of our hope before the foundation as Jesus being that image of the invisible God created even the angels, which includes Lucifer and created all things for Gods good pleasure, Colossians 1:15-18.

Eve was only made subject to vanity after the serpent (Satan) tempted her and she fell to that temptation and once her and Adam ate it was only then that they new they were naked. The ground was not corrupted as that would be saying God created a corruptible world and we know that all things God created he said was good. There is always goodness until corruption is found in it as even Lucifer was created good until iniquity was found in him.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Perhaps the writer of Matthew can amend the text to suit your eyes?

I see a devil departing a CHILD. Kinda hard to miss actually. Unless the miss is intentional. Which it would have to be in order to deny the obvious.

The point again about sin is that it is not a matter of just and only MAN or babies.

There are powers UNseen involved with SIN and with MAN, yes, even BABIES.

s

where does the context say the child had any sins? Again, the devil departing was about a sickness the child had and not about any sins.

 

[smaller]

where does the context say the child had any sins? Again, the devil departing was about a sickness the child had and not about any sins.

Why is it do you suppose that you only see the child when there was obviously a DEVIL and A CHILD in the same FLESH?

The continuing block of conversation is the fact that sin is not just about 'the man' 'the child' or their decisions or not.

There is another party, UNseen, that is actively involved with SIN.

And it can be shown and brought up factually again and again, but your 'doctrine' does not allow you to see it, as your own 'mind' would have to be reprogrammed to take in that fact.

Such is the plight of getting caught up in 'doctrinal loops.' The holders thereof must adhere to sights that can not come to grips with the obvious and they then loop, loop, loop, back to the same place they started from. Never being able to see any other FACT even when it is put right before them in scripture.

No, there was no devil in that child is there EB? Nope.

Even though it is written just as clear as a BELL it simply is not there.

zzzzz

s

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Hi Ernest,

I can call you Ernest? When I hear your handle, I think of Ernest P. Worrell. lol. I have a great affection for that character.

I straighten my wig. I would refer you to post #302.

- Davies

Ernest is fine with me.

Here was my response to Osgiliath about Rom 8:20:


---Rom 8:20 does not say God created the creation corrupt but the bond of coruption came upon creation as a consequnce of man sinning. The earth was created "very good", Gen 1:31, your theology contradicts this. Eden was a perfect paradise but as a consequence of Adam's sin the ground became cursed (not created cursed, Gen 3:17 ) grown with thorns and nettles. As a consequence of man's sin there was a flood during Noah's time that brought about natural disasters/corruption, the earth was not created with natural disasters, it was created "very good", Gen 1:31. Man corrupted himself with disease and physical death as a consequence of his sinning, he was not created corrupt but created "very good" Gen 1:31. Since man sinned the consequence was a bondage of corruption which now the whole creation groaneth, it is looking for a way out of this corruption and the second coming of Christ will end the groaning of creation. When Christ returns the earth and everything in it will melt with a fervent heat, 2 Pet 3:12 and finite, corruptible fleshly man will put on an immortal, incorruption, 1 Cor 15:50-54 With the earth having burned up and man having put on immortality the groaning will cease.


So we have seen your theology contradict Gen 31:1 that EVERYTHING God created was very good and not corrupt and it contradicts Eccl 7:29 that God made man upright and not corrupt. How do you plan to fix these contradictions?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Why is it do you suppose that you only see the child when there was obviously a DEVIL and A CHILD in the same FLESH?

It was a sickness the child had that was cured, not sin. You are making assumptions about it.

The continuing block of conversation is the fact that sin is not just about 'the man' 'the child' or their decisions or not.

There is another party, UNseen, that is actively involved with SIN.

And it can be shown and brought up factually again and again, but your 'doctrine' does not allow you to see it, as your own 'mind' would have to be reprogrammed to take in that fact.

Such is the plight of getting caught up in 'doctrinal loops.' The holders thereof must adhere to sights that can not come to grips with the obvious and they then loop, loop, loop, back to the same place they started from. Never being able to see any other FACT even when it is put right before them in scripture.

No, there was no devil in that child is there EB? Nope.

Even though it is written just as clear as a BELL it simply is not there.

zzzzz

s

Where does the CONTEXT say the child was a sinner?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

This is not universalism as Ernest would think I'm proposing, because the gift is not like that which came through Adam. One act brought death to all, but the other brought life to those who receive abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness. Romans 5:16-17.

I thought two experts would be enough, but I think there's three because Paul's words aren't that difficult to understand.

- Davies

It would be teaching Universalism.

Both Rom 5:18,19 are if-then type statements. If A is true, then B is true. If the first part of Rom 5:19 is true about Adam then the same is true in the second part of the verse about Christ.

If the many are made sinners unconditionally by inheriting Adam's sin, then it is also true that same many will unconditionally be made righteous by Christ.

1) there must be consistency with your interpretation of the verse. If the many are not unconditonally made righteous by Christ then there is no reason to think the many were made unconditionally sinners by inheriting Adam's sin. Again, if one is true then the other must also be true

2) there is nothing in the context of Rom 5 (or elsewhere) that says men are unconditionally made sinners by inheriting Adam's sin. In Rom 5:12 Paul said "for all have sinned" and NOT "for all have inherited Adam's sin".
Nor is there anything in Rom 5 that says men are unconditionally made righteous by Christ. Rom 5:1,2 men must conditionally choose to have faith to be saved just as men must conditionally choose to sin to be a sinner.
So men are conditonally made sinners when they choose to transgress God's law and conditionally made righteous when they choose to obey God's righteous laws.

 

[Davies]

Ernest is fine with me.

Here was my response to Osgiliath about Rom 8:20:


---Rom 8:20 does not say God created the creation corrupt but the bond of coruption came upon creation as a consequnce of man sinning. The earth was created "very good", Gen 1:31, your theology contradicts this.

I agree with you that God's creation was perfect which is to include man. That means that Adam was without sin. But just as creation was subject to corruption because of Adam's sin, so Adam's posterity inherits Adams sin by imputation. That's what Romans 5:18-19 say. Judgment came to all men through the one man's act of disobedience.

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation...

- Davies

 

[for_his_glory]

Here are the facts again. There is no 'dispute' available with facts.

Fact: all have sin AND have sinned
Fact: Sin is of the devil

Now, by any measure you chose to lay, those are the facts of SIN.

The fact is, in the case of the second fact, you can stare at the text all the day long and at people, even children, all the day long, and NEVER see 'the devil.'

So as it pertains to SIN, there is as a fact, an unseen operator in the equations.

You are welcome to discount that fact.
Your 'bold red' statement does not apply as Paul showed us, this being the again 'factual' conditions of Adam's formation in a DUST body:

1 Cor. 15:
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made -


Now you can lay any fantasy of your sight on Adam. The facts of Adam's condition is clearly WRITTEN above.

Weakness, corruption, dishonor and a natural body is also the factual condition of every person who has ever been born of FLESH MAN.


Again, so says you. Jesus also told us that where The Word is sown, SATAN enters the HEART 'immediately.' (Mark 4:15)

And this also happened 'immediately' to ADAM. You are again welcome to see otherwise and apart from the written disclosures of these matters.

All the fanciful imaginative constructs that are put forth in this thread about 'children' and 'sin' are almost entirely void of simple written open facts.

And the bulk of them are 'designed' to avoid confrontations with the obvious other party to sin, that being THE DEVIL, Satan.

That is exactly where those who can not see the facts will be taken. They can not see the obvious because the obvious can NOT BE SEEN.

s

Anyone knows the fact of sin as it's beginning was with Satan and then spread to all men/women, but not everyone knows that babies are conceived and born sinless, such as the case of God creating Adam and Eve sinless until sin was found in them. Lucifer was created sinless until sin was found in him. Babies are created sinless until they enter a sinful world then sin is eventually found in them. What Paul is saying in 1Corinthians 15:42-44 is that this flesh is corruptible and will return to the dust of the ground corruptible. It is our soul, which makes up our fleshly nature that is corruptible, but our spirit, if we be in Christ when we die will be resurrected incorruptible as those who have died as dying a fleshly death are sown or laid in the ground as corruptible flesh which will rot away and it is our spirit that connects us to God that will be raised incorruptible.

In our natural body (flesh) we will be weak, corrupted and dishonor God until the day we die. That is why our spirit has to be Spiritually reunited (born-again) with God's Spirit through His free gift of grace made available to all people by that of His son Jesus Christ who through his life, death and resurrection gives hope to everyone who will make him Lord and Savior that we can be redeemed of this sinful flesh as we are made righteous again by God's righteousness that brings a renewal to our spirit made alive in Him.

 

[Davies]

It would be teaching Universalism.

Both Rom 5:18,19 are if-then type statements. If A is true, then B is true. If the first part of Rom 5:19 is true about Adam then the same is true in the second part of the verse about Christ.

If the many are made sinners unconditionally by inheriting Adam's sin, then it is also true that same many will unconditionally be made righteous by Christ.

1) there must be consistency with your interpretation of the verse. If the many are not unconditonally made righteous by Christ then there is no reason to think the many were made unconditionally sinners by inheriting Adam's sin. Again, if one is true then the other must also be true

2) there is nothing in the context of Rom 5 (or elsewhere) that says men are unconditionally made sinners by inheriting Adam's sin. In Rom 5:12 Paul said "for all have sinned" and NOT "for all have inherited Adam's sin".
Nor is there anything in Rom 5 that says men are unconditionally made righteous by Christ. Rom 5:1,2 men must conditionally choose to have faith to be saved just as men must conditionally choose to sin to be a sinner.
So men are conditonally made sinners when they choose to transgress God's law and conditionally made righteous when they choose to obey God's righteous laws.

Ernest,

I quote myself (straightening wig), "One act brought death to all, but the other brought life to those who receive abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness." Now where is this teaching universalism? I would say that death through Adam is universal. This wasn't the case for Jesus because he did not have an earthly father, so He doesn't inherit the sinful nature. But the gift of life is not universal because it is conditional based on if we receive the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness.

Would you tell me there are people out there who don't need the blood of Jesus applied to them? I don't think so. Babies are born in Adam; they are not born in Christ, and they need the blood of Jesus applied to them just as much as any of us do.

- Davies